Questions to ask liberal "Christians"
Fluffy-bunny Christians-lite reject the notion that the Bible is to be read literally as God's inerrant Word. I've prepared some questions to challenge them on their view of Scripture. Please feel free to add others.
We often hear that the Genesis creation accounts were never meant to be read literally. What historical evidence do you have for that assertion? What do you make of the fact that that assertion was made only millennia after Genesis was written? We also often hear that the Genesis creation accounts were intended as metaphor or allegory. Specifically, how are they to be read as a metaphor or allegory, and for what? Also, the Old and New Testaments both contain genealogies stretching back to Adam. At what point does an allegory “beget” a flesh-and-blood human being? What is your test for determining which parts of the Bible are metaphorical or allegorical and which are meant literally? If Genesis is allegorical, why aren’t the Gospels allegorical as well? In other words, if you’re right about Genesis, why aren’t the magic-mushroom cultists right about the Gospels? Where in the Bible does it say that the Old Testament laws can be divided into “moral” and “ceremonial” laws and that we are excused from keeping the latter, but not the former? What is the test for determining which is which? For example, we’ve heard that the laws relating to the treatment of rape victims are ceremonial rather than moral, but how could that be? If rape is not a moral as opposed to ceremonial issue, what is? Where in the Bible does it say that children below an “age of accountability” are automatically saved? Where in the Bible do we even read what that “age of accountability” is? The Bible sets forth clear rules on how to be saved; where is the exception for children set forth with equal clarity, or at all? Even with regard to the New Testament, we hear that some laws are to be kept today, while others were meant for the church “back then.” How do you know which is which? We sometimes hear that “Christian ethics,” “Christian love,” and the “spirit of the Bible” trump the clear commands of the Bible. What source could “Christian ethics,” “Christian love,” and the “spirit of the Bible” have, if not the words of the Bible? Similarly, if the Bible contradicts a modern understanding of morality, why is it the Bible, rather than that modern understanding of morality, which is in error? With regard to the role of women in church, we hear that women were instructed to keep silent in church because women in a specific church had a tendency to gossip or to ask what the sermon meant, thereby disrupting the service. What is the historical evidence for that assertion? Also, what do you make of the Bible teaching that women are to remain silent because of Adam and Eve? How do you interpret the teachings in the Old and New Testaments on slavery to be anti-slavery? We often hear that the Bible was twisted to support slavery; how is not the case that the supporters of slavery read the Bible literally and that it is you who are twisting it? More generally, whenever the Bible says something that you don’t like, how are you justified in appealing to “Bible scholars” who say that the Bible means something radically different from (and in some cases the exact opposite of) what the words on paper say? Which is the Word of God: those people’s interpretation of the Bible, or the Bible? If you are justified in reading the Bible in that way, why are homosexuals not equally justified in doing so? Why should any part of Scripture not have meaning until it is “interpreted correctly”? Why should we read a text that presents itself as a straightforward instruction manual for life as though it had layers of hidden meaning that only the adept could understand? Can the Almighty not express Himself clearly? Also, since the Bible is given to us for our salvation, why would a loving God make Bible understanding, and thus salvation, contingent on being clever enough, persistent enough, or both to ferret out the hidden meaning? Similarly, how could the Bible have meaning only in the original languages? No one says that we need to read textbooks in the original Russian in order to understand plasma physics; how is the Bible any different? Can the Almighty not find a way to express Himself in a way that speakers of all languages can understand, and why would a loving God make Bible understanding, and thus salvation, contingent on understanding a meaning that can be gleaned only from the original languages? Regarding the inspiration of Scripture, we hear that only the “essence” was inspired. What is your functional distinction between the “essence” and the parts that you like? If it isn’t all to be read and followed as the Word of God, why treat any of it that way? Alternatively, we hear that the “original manuscripts” alone were God’s inerrant Word. What good does that do us today? Doesn’t that make God a liar when He promised to preserve His words? |
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Pastor, this seems worthy of a Sticky! All the False Christians who pop in to tell us that we aren't following God's Law should be forced to read this before they can post!
Then maybe, just maybe, we could spend some time praising Jesus instead of fending off the attacks of the lukewarm. |
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Yes, you say every part of the Bible should be taken literally (except, of course, the deuterocanonical books as well as the parts dealing with the Holy Eucharist)
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Anyway, to business and ignoring your implication that the deuterocanonical books are part of KJV1611, let us progress - We'll make a good Baptist of you yet! The deuterocanonical books – you and I know that they are no more than pleasant folk tales expressing the sort of things that God might have done – simple wishful thinking by over-ardent followers. They also were somewhat more sinisterly used by the Vatican business conglomerate at the time of the upsurge of Protestantism. Coincidentally, the jesuits arrived on the scene at about the same time and there was a lot of burning… but that’s another story for another day. The wine and the death cookie are yet another thing – I have explained at length the only understanding possible and will not repeat myself. On the other hand, the terms of your employment by the Vatican business conglomerate preclude you from expressing openly your actual knowledge that there is no change in either the bread or wine whatsoever. This, in itself, shows that it is, allegorical – symbolic if you will. Have you ever read Shakespeare? Hamlet, Act I, Scene iii, Polonius to Laertes "This above all: to thine own self be true." However, if you are able to supply to Landover Christian University Research Department samples of allegedly transubstantiated flesh or blood, we will be happy to examine the sample. Or perhaps you will claim that Jesus consisted of bread and wine? |
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http://daveibsen.typepad.com/5_blogs...s/doughboy.jpg Horrifying. |
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I've read most of your questions, and I have to admit that some of them can create controversy. Nevertheless, a good part of your questions could have been solved by a philosophy class, where you would've learned about how to justify an argument by not making a sophist out of yourself.
Have a good day. |
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Is that it? ^^ One cryptic comment and he's off - another 481 - hit and run. Anyhoo - philosophy? I think he must have meant theology.
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Liberalism is very bad. When the liberals succeeded my country, we went d' a kingdom thrives with a poor dictatorship without rights or freedoms. It is incompatible with Christianity!
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You have a blessed day, too, and I will pray that you may read the Bible and become saved. |
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Mark 4:11 (King James Version) 11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: Matthew 13:11-13 (King James Version) 11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. |
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That's not the portrait of the loving Christ I have always had in my mind. |
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2 Peter 1:20If Jesus says He's talking in parables then He is talking in parables. When God does not mention He's talking in parables, then it is not a parable. It is as simple as that. |
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2 Timothy 3:16-17 (King James Version) 16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. The bible is profitable, for doctrine, for our correction, and our instruction. These are really not my words. The bible says that all scripture is inspired for our instruction. There are many Christian religions, why is that so, since we all use the same book? It is because many use their own ideas, or only parts of the bible. It is really important to look to the bible for our answers. John 4:23-24 (King James Version) 23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. This means the truth of Gods word. We were given the bible to know God, and what his purposes are and how we fit in that. All of it is there for a purpose, and is meant to be understood. Joshua 1:8 (King James Version) 8This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success. This verse mentions all that is written, we should observe. And study it day and night. God really asks us to get to know him, and we do that through the bible, and prayer. |
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Matthew 13:13-15 (King James Version) 13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: This is talking about people that hear the words but do not perceive: or have understanding. This is talking about Christians. It is not our place to say which scriptures , we will use and not others. All scripture is inspired for us, to use. |
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:thumbsup: Yours in Christ, Z. Smyth |
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My goal here is not to debate but really just to use the scriptures, and for all to get a better understanding . I may bring up some things you never had though about before. And the same from you. 2 Timothy 3 (King James Version) 2 Timothy 3 16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. |
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You're hung up on what's in your mind instead of what's in the Bible. If you hadn't been corrupted by your wishy washy interpretationist thinking you'd know that your God is a jealous God. You'd know that your God didn't muck about sending Jesus to die for you just so you could shilly shally about allegory this and non-literall that to wriggle out of doing His will. Quote:
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But, as it happens, Jesus killed*, and for very little reason. So, perhaps they are not quite as literal as they seem. * - Gospel of Thomas |
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I've always been quite fond of the simplicity in the Ten Commandments. While I can understand other parts of the Bible needing some slight intepretation, the ten commandments are pretty solid in what they mean.
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The soteriology of the New Testament presupposes a literal Adam and compares and contrasts him with a literal Christ:
Romans 5:18-19: Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. If Adam can be an allegory in that passage, why can't Christ? In other words, if you deny a literal Adam, how do you not ultimately deny Christianity? |
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There is something i have always been wondering about. But, before i get to that i wish to say i do not mean any disrespect whatsoever towards God or any of the men and women on this forum.
Now, for my question. I always hear and see Christian people saying that God created the world as it is to this very day and that Charles Darwin with his evolution theory is wrong. But, my question is what if God created the world but was not fully satisfied at first and decided to change small things untill it was perfect,something evolution does in a sense as well. Again, i do not mean any disrespect but i wanted to know the opinion of the religious side as well. |
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Isaiah 46:9-10 " Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" Now, if you really are a Christian and are not here just to mock God, kindly introduce yourself here. Tell us what Church you attend, your most favorite Holy Bible verse and all about your personal relationship with Jesus. In Christ |
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Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. Gen 1:21-22 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. Please make sure you start a thread in the introduction forum and tell us what church you go to, what your favorite Bible verse is and how you came to find Jesus. |
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Hope this helps. :thumbsup: |
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Now, as interesting a tale as this might sound, do you really think it's likely? Now do you see how silly it would be to assume evolution is likely? So why even speculate as to how it might fit in what we know to be True? :) |
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Thank you all. It was very enlightening to learn the opinions of others. Now, i had a second question. I do ask to look at it with an openmind. But like always i do not mean any disrespect to anyone. Now, According to science the universe is created billions of years ago. According to Christianity,the bible and of course most importantly The Lord the universe and most important our world was created around sixthousand years ago. Now, would it be possible that the world was indeed created billions of years ago like science claims but that it was in a state of chaos and that God came to our world,looked upon the chaos and decided it could not go on like this,wiping the planet clean and made it into what it is today? It is just something i wonder about. And before anyone asks. No, i am not a Christian like you all are. Nor am i an Atheist. I am just not sure what i believe in. I respect christianity and i respect all of you for who you are and what you believe in. but i myself am not completely sure yet. Which is part of the reason i am on here. I wish to discover more and i wish to learn more about the concept that is The Lord
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Also, My parents are both great people who both raised me in a Christian way. My losing of faith is in no way the fault of my parents and i would prefer if you do not judge someone you do not even know. And before you come with arguments about that God judges us, He knows us and is therefore entitled to judge. You do not know me and therefor you do not have any right to judge about me or my parents. Thank you. This is also the last thing i will say about this. and the last thing i want to hear about this. |
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Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." How did you miss that? |
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Really? It says that? hm, then i guess i must have read a bible in which it was removed... That's strange. But, i did not ask it for the sake of proving who is wrong and who is right. I was curious that if we would assume it was true, would it be a plausible thing. |
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