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kehei1 kehei1 is offline
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Default Re: Hi - 11-16-2014, 05:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmer G. White View Post
No, I'm afraid. It is not clear. It is cognitive dissociation. It is a desperate attempt to salvage authority while yielding to secular science. And it is a process of constantly changing doctrine. No, the faith and morals won't save the infallibility. Faith is BASED ON Creation theology. Morals are based on the Fall. Without them there would be no need for redemption. It all falls apart. Pius streched the unique position of humans as the image of God. You can stretch it only so far. Now it's broken.

Why! To keep up the facade. To keep the wealth and the power. Losing Creation theology to keep a bit longer the basic ethical core of decency, at least regarding abortions and contraception.

But it does not work. The common catholic does not care. He wears the condom, brings gifts to his gay friends when they marry, and all is forgiven with some Mary worship and paternoster. The game is actually over but the curia still does not see it. They keep up the appereance of moral teachings all the while knowing that the common catholic could not care less. Why? Because they gave up on Creation theology. No way back.

We care. We want to keep the whole Bible. And why mention the false Christian Calvinists or Lutherans? We know they are false Churches together with pentecostals, mormons and scientologists... We do not identify ourselves with them. We don't care if you mock them in an attempt to make your own bunch look less repulsive.

Confimation bias. I know why it is so.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer


The church's moral teachings say the use of any contraception is a GRAVE OFFENSE. So no, true catholics do not use condoms, do not have premarital sex. We believe it is wrong to masturbate, to lie, to steal.....we believe in the commandments of God.

Creation theology is in no way contradictory to evolution and the Big Bang. You think it is so because you read the Bible LITERALLY. But when confromted with John 6:55 you pathetically argue that it is "Symbolic". What a shame. THAT is cognitive dissonance.
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Dolores de Barriga Dolores de Barriga is offline
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Default Re: Hi - 11-16-2014, 06:00 PM

One more thing, Kevin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kehei1 View Post
The "initial population of humans" mentionned by ratzinger are HOMINIDS, that is what he is making a reference to. Ratzinger knows and believes that we humans have one single common pair of ancestors, whom it calls Adam and Eve.
Unfortunately, science disagrees with Ratzinger. Even the out-of-Africa model does not assume that it was a single pair of hominids who gave life to all humans. It was a population. In addition, it was a population which was interbreeding with other populations of hominids. In other words: science says that at any point in time we do not descend from a single couple. According to science, there never were an Adam and Eve.

By the way, Ratzinger cannot simultaneously "know and believe" that he is right. You either know or believe: you know based on facts, you believe based on your preconceived notions, prejudices, religion, whatever rocks your boat. As a student of logic you should have known that.


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
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Default Re: Hi - 11-16-2014, 06:09 PM

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Originally Posted by Dolores de Barriga View Post
One more thing, Kevin.



Unfortunately, science disagrees with Ratzinger. Even the out-of-Africa model does not assume that it was a single pair of hominids who gave life to all humans. It was a population. In addition, it was a population which was interbreeding with other populations of hominids. In other words: science says that at any point in time we do not descend from a single couple. According to science, there never were an Adam and Eve.

By the way, Ratzinger cannot simultaneously "know and believe" that he is right. You either know or believe: you know based on facts, you believe based on your preconceived notions, prejudices, religion, whatever rocks your boat. As a student of logic you should have known that.
Science does not yet have it's official answer, so please let it continue it's investigation and see what it comes up with as a final thesis (if we see it while we're alive).

Monogenism is necessary to the doctrine of original sin, therefore the Church will always affirm it. And ultimately, it is the truth. Monogenism is also held by some modern biologists to be a very credible hypothesis. Anyways, not sure I see your point here.

Ratzinger cannot "know and believe"? What does that mean exactly? I "believe" my father when he tells me he played hockey as a kid. I am sure that my father would not lie to me in such a vulgar way, for no reason at all. Therefore, since I judge that he is credible and tells the truth, I KNOW he played hockey when he was a kid.

"Believing" is just one of the many possible ways to acquire knowledge, it is not the opposite of knowledge...
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Elmer G. White Elmer G. White is offline
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Default Re: Hi - 11-16-2014, 06:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kehei1 View Post
The church's moral teachings say the use of any contraception is a GRAVE OFFENSE. So no, true catholics do not use condoms, do not have premarital sex. We believe it is wrong to masturbate, to lie, to steal.....we believe in the commandments of God.

Creation theology is in no way contradictory to evolution and the Big Bang. You think it is so because you read the Bible LITERALLY. But when confromted with John 6:55 you pathetically argue that it is "Symbolic". What a shame. THAT is cognitive dissonance.
Of course you understand that this is another tu quoque...

But on a serious note. You also use equivocation. Yes, it is a fallacy. No surprise there. Taking the Bible literally does not mean that everything should be taken literally. It contains only that all the Bible is literally true, not that everything in the Bible is true literally. Jesus told parables, you know. You use a straw man and equivocation to make the Baptists' literal reading look ridiculous.

If “eating the flesh of Jesus” is taken as transsubstantiation, then all of those who partake of communion would be saved as Jesus said all who partake of it are given life by him, i.e., salvation. We know this is false. It is obvious that there are those who partake of communion but are unbelievers or agnostics or apostates. Or do you disagree? Or does Jesus lie?

Only through tradition and confirmation bias can one support transsubstantiation.

I'm afraid that prayer is going to be more useful in your case than discussion. Transsubstantiation won't save you. Only faith does (John 3:16-18).


Yours in Christ,

Elmer


2 Kings 18:25 - Am I now come up without the LORD against this place to destroy it? The LORD said to me, Go up against this land, and destroy it.



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Dolores de Barriga Dolores de Barriga is offline
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Default Re: Hi - 11-16-2014, 06:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kehei1 View Post
At the time, evolution was very poorly supported and it was very imprudent to adhere to it, so the Pope was right on that.
I'm guessing you've never held "On The Origin of Species" in your hands. Too bad.

Quote:
So I will reply to your points:

1)already answered
2)it did lack evidence, especially on the questions of the possibility of life emerging from inanimate matter, it lacked hybrid fossils and a whole bunch of evidence that we have enough of today to safely assert that species did evolve into one another.
Actually, fossil record was known since at least early 19th century. Darwin's theory was the thing which made sense of it.

Quote:
3)Saying wrong people use continuous evolution to justify paganism is different from saying continuous evolution is FALSE.
Yet, the document condemns evolution on the basis of it.

Quote:
Anyways, the Church is not infallible in matters of cosmology and evolution nor in anything relating to science. Its declarations on the matter are to be interpreted like any other text, in context and subject to change. Only when science affirms something contrary to the faith is the church entitled to speak with authority. Monogenism is an example of that.
Now, that's a perfect example of convoluted Catholic "logic" which has shaken my faith in the first place. How do you define which parts of the Bible relate to faith and which don't? Does stoning gays to death relate to faith? Does women's subjugation relate to faith? Where the heck do you draw the line?

Quote:
4)Communists support this idea is not the same as everyone supporting this idea is a communist.
5)Evolution is used to support atheism does not mean everyone who believes in evolution must necessarily be atheist
Yet, the document does not say "but evolution is also supported by nice Christian people."

Quote:
6)Where does he say the world is immutable?
In the first sentence of #6.

Quote:
He says that some people try to make what is immutable in it subject to CHANGE. That is NOT the same thing. The immutable things in the Universe are, for example, it's finality, it's purpose, God's action in infusing the human soul directly and such things.
If Pope meant what you say he meant, why didn't he specify it? Because the way it's written, it looks like the world is immutable. And your statement that "the finality of the universe is immutable" is just precious. A bit of historical background: what the Pope is referring to is the debate between static, unchangeable universe, created by God "as-is," and between the scientific evidence provided by geology of constant changes in the appearance of the Earth. Clearly, the author of this document supported the static universe idea.

Quote:
7)Plato's essentialism was refuted by St-Thomas Aquinas. The Church says that the only way in which this is true is pertaining to Angels, which ressemble what Plato described as "Ideas", "Pure Forms".
Yes. Essentialism. Call it whatever you want, it's ultimately Plato's idea.

Quote:
You overinterpret the Pope's encyclical and fail to put it into context where it is not infallible.
That's the point: it's not infallible.


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
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Dolores de Barriga Dolores de Barriga is offline
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Default Re: Hi - 11-16-2014, 06:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kehei1 View Post
Science does not yet have it's official answer, so please let it continue it's investigation and see what it comes up with as a final thesis (if we see it while we're alive).
Have you ever heard of DNA? It's a thing in your body which you inherit from your parents, and - together with the environment and epigenetics - it decides things like the color of your eyes and what diseases you'll develop in life. We share 99% of our DNA with chimpanzees, and we share 90% of our DNA with rats. Given that hominid groups were interbreeding freely, and therefore there is no single hominid Adam and Eve, we would have to search earlier than that for a single couple ancestor of all humans - an early rat, maybe?

Quote:
Monogenism is necessary to the doctrine of original sin, therefore the Church will always affirm it. And ultimately, it is the truth. Monogenism is also held by some modern biologists to be a very credible hypothesis. Anyways, not sure I see your point here.
Biological monogenism is different from religious monogenism. Idea that we descend from a single group of hominids is hypothetically possible. Idea tha we descend from a single couple is not.

Quote:
Ratzinger cannot "know and believe"? What does that mean exactly? I "believe" my father when he tells me he played hockey as a kid. I am sure that my father would not lie to me in such a vulgar way, for no reason at all. Therefore, since I judge that he is credible and tells the truth, I KNOW he played hockey when he was a kid.
You seem to have a great faith in your father, but no, if you haven't seen pictures of him playing hockey then you don't really know. News flash: parents often lie to their kids, embellishing their own past.

Quote:
"Believing" is just one of the many possible ways to acquire knowledge, it is not the opposite of knowledge...
Here is the dictionary definition of believe: http://i.word.com/idictionary/believe
... and know: http://i.word.com/idictionary/know

Basically, knowing requires some sort of evidence. Ratzinger obviously isn't trusting scientific evidence, but he isn't trusting the Bible as evidence, either - otherwise he would say that Adam and Eve were created by God from mud during the first week of the existence of the universe, period.


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Default Re: Hi - 11-16-2014, 07:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kehei1 View Post
Oh come on don't bring up that ridiculous media BS. Pope Francis has not changed nor has any intention of changing a single word from the church's traditionnal teaching.

All that hype about communion for the divorced, gay acceptance etc. is just things that journalists and the media use to bait you into thinking the church is on a sudden changing binge after 2000+years of unaltered authentic teaching.....yeah right....
Oh, so are you saying that the Catholic Church did support divorce and gay acceptance for the last two millenia? Now I'm really confused, dear!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kehei1 View Post
You have no rebuttal right? You know very well that it is the Holy Catholic Church that has fixed the canon of the Original Bible, and that your belief in the Bible is in fact an apology of the Church!
Please read about the differences between Catholic and Protestant Bibles before you make such statements.

Quote:
And please don't talk to me about hate, people here think torturing your children is a good deed.....I subscribed to this forum only because of the sheer amount of hate I found in here. People saying torturing children is good, Pastors telling people they have demons in their rectum, and I know you approve of all that. So you are filled with hate. Me, I came here out of compassion, hoping that you stray away from your God-forsaken pagan church.
How is following the Bible pagan, exactly?

Quote:
And what about the argument about the thousands of branches of protestantism? About the authority of the baptist church? Are you purposefully ignoring all of that?
No. We do, however, despise all the groups that do not follow the Holy Bible 100%. Like your church, for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kehei1 View Post
The CEO? JESUS made him CEO don't you get it? He gave Peter the KEYS. Read matthew 16 please. And you can read through the New Testament while you're at it, they do name a successor for Peter and he does have his authority, and this has been done up to today, and Pope Francis now has those KEYS.
What exactly does make you think that popes are the successors of Peter? Because that part is not in the Bible. In fact, at the beginning of Christianity, the bishops of five dioceses (Antiochia, Jerusalem, Rome, Constantinople, and Alexandria) held equal power. The bishops of Rome invented their interpretation of themselves as Peter's successors. Obviously, the other bishops did not agree with that interpretation, which is why the Catholic Church decided to separate from the Orthodox Church.

Quote:
Heliocentrism is NOT against the Bible. That is why in front of the very strong evidence of its truth, the church accepted it.
1 Chronicles 16:30. Psalm 104:5. Daniel 4:10-11. Revelation 7:1. This is just a small selection, or do I need to cite all of them?

Quote:
THIS DOES NOT MATTER. The church is infallible ONLY in matters of FAITH and MORALS, as teaches the holy Council of Vatican (the first one).
How do you decide which are which? Cherry pickers!

Quote:
Creationnism is compatible with evolution. It just means that god created things gradually and beautifully in time, he didn't just make everything we know of today pop out magically as is. Don't you see that the big bang and evolution are just God's tools to make the word? And how it does NOT deny God's great creative action that brought us into being?
No, no, and no. Evolution says that change is blindly random: 90% of mutations don't mean anything, a few prove to be beneficiary, a few are bad. For an omnipotent God, it's a very inefficient way to make stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kehei1 View Post
However, even though science and natural laws are not in the Church's jurisdiction, it happens that "things cross over". For example, it is an infallible catholic doctrine that there are 2 FIRST HUMANS, ADAM AND EVE. So even though the church has no authority on Biology, saying we have MANY "first parents" contradicts the faith, and therefore the Church's authority extends to this biological truth, even though at first glance it seems out of her magisterium.
So.... you accepting the Bible whenever it suits your ideas, and you reject it whenever it doesn't.

Have you tried to open your mind, like, ever?

Quote:
And as I already mentionned, Ratzinger refers to populations of HOMINIDS. This is obvious, because he goes on to mention the direct infusion of the Soul by god into the human body; what he is referring to before that are Hominids, being who physically ressemble humans but that have not yet received the Immortal Soul. God infused Adam and Eve with a Soul, and from them all Humanity descended, and we have all inherited Original Sin for we have descended from them.

Is this clearer?
Yes. It's very clear that you are a cherry-picker.

From what that Dolores-whatever says, science rejects the idea of a single couple. Which means, that in this case, you reject science and stick to the Bible. Which does not prevent you from rejecting the Bible and sticking to science in other cases.

Could you please just stick to one thing consistently? I think I'm going to have a headache.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kehei1 View Post
The church's moral teachings say the use of any contraception is a GRAVE OFFENSE. So no, true catholics do not use condoms, do not have premarital sex. We believe it is wrong to masturbate, to lie, to steal.....we believe in the commandments of God.
.... except for the one about graven images (Exodus 20:4), right, dear?

Quote:
Creation theology is in no way contradictory to evolution and the Big Bang. You think it is so because you read the Bible LITERALLY.
Creation implies a Creator. Big Bang makes the Creator unnecesary. You were saying...?

Quote:
But when confromted with John 6:55 you pathetically argue that it is "Symbolic". What a shame. THAT is cognitive dissonance.
Oh, so you actually believe that you eat human meat and drink human blood during mass? That's so gross! I believe it's called cannibalism!
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Default Re: Hi - 11-16-2014, 09:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kehei1 View Post
And as I already mentionned, Ratzinger refers to populations of HOMINIDS. This is obvious, because he goes on to mention the direct infusion of the Soul by god into the human body; what he is referring to before that are Hominids, being who physically ressemble humans but that have not yet received the Immortal Soul. God infused Adam and Eve with a Soul, and from them all Humanity descended, and we have all inherited Original Sin for we have descended from them.

Is this clearer?
No, it sounds like Benny was trying to placate the liberal Catholics by suggesting they can have their evolutionary cake and eat it, too. Why on earth would God behave in such a way that not only directly contradicts the Words He Himself Divinely Inspired to be written into the Holy Bible, but also directly contradicts the very principles of evolution He supposedly created? Why would God create such an evolutionary sloppy design on purpose if He is a not a God of disorder, but one of peace (1 Corinthians 14:33)? Why would He create such an existence that gives the appearance of His being either cruel and capricious, or of being completely impotent with regards to following His own evolutionary design?

This is all very silly, and you might want to familiarize yourself with the hypothesis of evolution before pretending it works theologically.



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Default Re: Hi - 11-16-2014, 10:53 PM

And not only Darwin's hypothesis!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kehei1 View Post
You strayed away from your mother the Church
Ever heard of pope Leo IX? The great schism? It was the Romish heretics who strayed (according to orthodoxy).


Read about it here, and I will include a quote:
Quote:
The Great Schism, also known as the East-West Schism, was the event that divided "Chalcedonian" Christianity into Western (Roman) Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. Though normally dated to 1054, when Pope Leo IX and Patriarch Michael I excommunicated each other, the East-West Schism was actually the result of an extended period of estrangement between the two bodies of churches. The primary causes of the Schism were disputes over papal authority -- the Roman Pope claimed he held authority over the four Eastern patriarchs, while the four eastern patriarchs claimed that the primacy of the Patriarch of Rome was only honorary, and thus he had authority only over Western Christians -- and over the insertion of the filioque clause into the Nicene Creed. There were other, less significant catalysts for the Schism, including variance over liturgical practices and conflicting claims of jurisdiction.
You continued:
Quote:
free-roaming, lost children, amassing into tribes that you call "churches" yet between you there is no true unity.
The differences between so-called orthodox groups, "tribes" I suppose you'd call them, and assorted catholic traditions like Eastern catholicism (as distinct from Eastern orthodoxy) interspersed with black popes and anti-popes and every hallmark of falsehood enable you to pick out a single line I suppose. And you can label that the "true" line. But there others who trace a different path from the same mess and label that the genuine route to Salvation. Some blaspheme by calling one another "Father" in direct contravention of a Scripture requiring no interpretation at all, others make themselves idols and bow dow to them, against in that case the Ten Commandments no less! "Oh, we're not worshipping the thing," they say and although I don't believe them it is quite immaterial since it's the bowing that's prohibited not just the making.
Matthew 23:9
[Jesus speaking] And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. KJV
[Jesus speaking] You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven. JERUSALEM BIBLE
[Jesus speaking] And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven. DOUAY-RHEIMS
When attempting to refute this, Catholic Answers delivers the most over-complicated chunk of labyrinthine prose I've encountered for some time with so many caveats and exemptions as to render the really quite simple instruction from Jesus completely meaningless.

There are probably more orthodox patriarchs than popes.
I'm assuming you know where to find the 10 Commandments. Here are the sources for Matthew:
Authorized Version (KJV)
Jerusalem Bible ©1966
Douay-Rheims

More here, including some comments from Augustine 410 AD.

Slice it where you like, all you get is baloney.
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