The introduction forum Attention Unsaved Trash: This the ONLY subforum you can start threads in. Here is where you introduce yourself. Tell us what church you go to and what your favorite Bible verse is and how you came to find Jesus. |
|
Unsaved trash, ring-kissing teenager
|
|
Posts: 101
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: I'm Christian, despite what this site CHANGED my username to say
|
|
Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud :) -
08-31-2009, 05:27 AM
NOTE: THIS YOUNG MAN HAS SPENT HIS YOUTH BEING BUGGERED BY PAPIST PRIESTS. HIS MENTAL STATE IS THEREFORE QUESTIONABLE. KEEP THIS IN MIND AS YOU READ HIS DISTURBING POSTS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JennyD
I have a question.
Why do you pray to Jesus' dead mother instead of Him? She can't hear you.
|
Alright, that's a easy one. Here is what a Catholic would say, it's pretty simple but if you need my to break it down just let me know
Hail Mary, full of Grace,
The Lord is with you.
Blessed are you among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
Pray for our sinners,
Now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
We don't pray TO Mary you see, we simply ask her to pray for us.
Last edited by Remy Lebeau; 09-01-2009 at 06:10 PM.
|
|
Forum Member, lost in space
Forum Member
|
|
Posts: 794
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Within this family. Praising God for finding them
|
|
Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud :) -
08-31-2009, 05:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishfish
Why do you have to spout hate and bad mouth his religion, i am an atheist and you dont see me bad mouthing you.
At least bob4god was polite which i respect
|
There's an easy answer to that, Sir.
You don't care, about God, so why would you, in your words "spout".
|
|
Honorary True Christian™ Sweet Placid Sister
Forum Member
|
|
Posts: 9,562
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Surrounded by hippie vermin
|
|
Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud :) -
08-31-2009, 05:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catholic - Christian
Alright, that's a easy one. Here is what a Catholic would say, it's pretty simple but if you need my to break it down just let me know
Hail Mary, full of Grace,
The Lord is with you.
Blessed are you among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
Pray for our sinners,
Now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
We don't pray TO Mary you see, we simply ask her to pray for us.
|
Two problems with that.
1. She's dead. She can't hear you.
2. It goes against God's Word:
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
|
|
compassion personified
True Christian™
|
|
Posts: 2,721
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Zealand
|
|
Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud :) -
08-31-2009, 05:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catholic - Christian
We don't pray TO Mary you see, we simply ask her to pray for us.
|
Asking favours of dead people is often referred to as "having a séance", and is a sin. When you pray to dead people, it is demons who answer. You might as well crack out a ouija board -- you are doomed anyway, unless you repent of your needy necrophiliac nagging and mother fixation.
|
|
Papist Stooge
|
|
Posts: 401
Join Date: Aug 2009
|
|
Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud :) -
08-31-2009, 05:59 AM
You good for nothing Protestants just leave Catholic-Christian alone! He's following the commands of God's representative on earth, Pope Benedict XVI. What do you mormons know about God? The Catholic Church is the only way to God! Unless you become a baptized member of the Church, attend mass every week, take communion and confess all your mortal sins to a priest, you'll never be said. Jesus says that quite clearly in the Bible, but you ignore Him. You all are so evil! You are going to hell along with the other 5 billion people in this world who aren't Catholic - ALL Protestant false Christians, those muslim terrorists, Hindu freaks, Buddhist idiots, greedy Jews, polygamous mormons, homosexual atheists - ALL HEADED FOR HELL! Turn to the true Church™! Mary, the Blessed Ever-Virgin Mother of God may have mercy on your soul!
in nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritūs Sancti
|
|
Biblical Poet, Warrior and Scholar Biblical Black Belt Jr. Pastor
True Christian™
|
|
Posts: 6,232
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
|
Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud :) -
08-31-2009, 06:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catholic - Christian
THANK YOU
You are officially the first person from this website to answer my question without insulting me
|
What are you smirking at, Papist devil?
|
|
Mammy
Forum Member
|
|
Posts: 961
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: floriduh
|
|
Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud :) -
08-31-2009, 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishfish
Why do you have to spout hate and bad mouth his religion, i am an atheist and you dont see me bad mouthing you.
At least bob4god was polite which i respect
|
Who be you to say anything, anyways?
We got our-selves a Catlick right here on da block. Miz Lydia Wilcox had her-self one of those "Mary on a Half Shell" statues on her lawn. Well, Beezer Wilcox shot the head of da Mary off wif his air gun and the Miz Lydia threw ole Mary out in da garbage. Cleevon took da headless Mary and put it under the palm tree by the pool and we call her "Our Lady of Little Thought" which is a fittin tribute to the Catlick Virgin .
Everybodys Blested Ole Mammy
|
|
Unsaved trash, ring-kissing teenager
|
|
Posts: 101
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: I'm Christian, despite what this site CHANGED my username to say
|
|
Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud :) -
08-31-2009, 03:45 PM
NOTE: THIS YOUNG MAN HAS SPENT HIS YOUTH BEING BUGGERED BY PAPIST PRIESTS. HIS MENTAL STATE IS THEREFORE QUESTIONABLE. KEEP THIS IN MIND AS YOU READ HIS DISTURBING POSTS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JennyD
Two problems with that.
1. She's dead. She can't hear you.
|
Is she? If you speak of the Flesh than you are correct. However, the spirit is eternal and - "he is the God of the living, not of the dead" (Mark 12:26-27)
No one in heaven is "dead" for they have eternal life. Would you like to argue that Mary is NOT in heaven?
Quote:
2. It goes against God's Word:
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
|
Is this quote from First Timothy supposed to convince me not to pray to Saints? By praying to a Saint, they are no more acting as mediator than I would should you ask me to pray for you. Perhaps I misunderstand however, and you could explain further.
Last edited by Remy Lebeau; 09-01-2009 at 06:10 PM.
|
|
Unsaved trash, ring-kissing teenager
|
|
Posts: 101
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: I'm Christian, despite what this site CHANGED my username to say
|
|
Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud :) -
08-31-2009, 03:50 PM
NOTE: THIS YOUNG MAN HAS SPENT HIS YOUTH BEING BUGGERED BY PAPIST PRIESTS. HIS MENTAL STATE IS THEREFORE QUESTIONABLE. KEEP THIS IN MIND AS YOU READ HIS DISTURBING POSTS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs. Rogers
Asking favours of dead people is often referred to as "having a séance", and is a sin. When you pray to dead people, it is demons who answer. You might as well crack out a ouija board -- you are doomed anyway, unless you repent of your needy necrophiliac nagging and mother fixation.
|
Sigh.
Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).
God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.
And yes. I know you think Catholicism to be a cult of some sort.
But I will persevere.
Last edited by Remy Lebeau; 09-01-2009 at 06:10 PM.
|
|
Unsaved trash, ring-kissing teenager
|
|
Posts: 101
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: I'm Christian, despite what this site CHANGED my username to say
|
|
Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud :) -
08-31-2009, 03:55 PM
NOTE: THIS YOUNG MAN HAS SPENT HIS YOUTH BEING BUGGERED BY PAPIST PRIESTS. HIS MENTAL STATE IS THEREFORE QUESTIONABLE. KEEP THIS IN MIND AS YOU READ HIS DISTURBING POSTS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Peter
You good for nothing Protestants just leave Catholic-Christian alone! He's following the commands of God's representative on earth, Pope Benedict XVI. What do you mormons know about God? The Catholic Church is the only way to God! Unless you become a baptized member of the Church, attend mass every week, take communion and confess all your mortal sins to a priest, you'll never be said. Jesus says that quite clearly in the Bible, but you ignore Him. You all are so evil! You are going to hell along with the other 5 billion people in this world who aren't Catholic - ALL Protestant false Christians, those muslim terrorists, Hindu freaks, Buddhist idiots, greedy Jews, polygamous mormons, homosexual atheists - ALL HEADED FOR HELL! Turn to the true Church™! Mary, the Blessed Ever-Virgin Mother of God may have mercy on your soul!
|
I pray brother, let Christ work through you here. Do not let Satan touch you now, do not let them drag you down their path. For if you fall, as these have here, you may never be able to pull yourself out. Maintain your composure as a representative of Christ's Church, stand tall and do not let them touch you. Let them strike at your heel, and answer with love brother. Help me save them.
And I say, let them come. Send me your worst. Bring questions on all fronts. For the questions will end long before the answers do. I will pray fervently that one, just one single soul might be brought home to Christ's Church thought our efforts here.
Last edited by Remy Lebeau; 09-01-2009 at 06:10 PM.
|
|
Unsaved trash, ring-kissing teenager
|
|
Posts: 101
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: I'm Christian, despite what this site CHANGED my username to say
|
|
Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud :) -
08-31-2009, 04:07 PM
NOTE: THIS YOUNG MAN HAS SPENT HIS YOUTH BEING BUGGERED BY PAPIST PRIESTS. HIS MENTAL STATE IS THEREFORE QUESTIONABLE. KEEP THIS IN MIND AS YOU READ HIS DISTURBING POSTS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heathen_Basher
What are you smirking at, Papist devil?
|
I was happy. I thought you were unlike your bretheren here. Forgive me for the mistake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vavoline Johnson
Who be you to say anything, anyways?
We got our-selves a Catlick right here on da block. Miz Lydia Wilcox had her-self one of those "Mary on a Half Shell" statues on her lawn. Well, Beezer Wilcox shot the head of da Mary off wif his air gun and the Miz Lydia threw ole Mary out in da garbage. Cleevon took da headless Mary and put it under the palm tree by the pool and we call her "Our Lady of Little Thought" which is a fittin tribute to the Catlick Virgin .
|
Jesus loved Mary. Why don't you?
Last edited by Remy Lebeau; 09-01-2009 at 06:10 PM.
|
|
LBU Professor and Biblical Wordsmith Extraordinaire President of the Ex-Negro Academy Alumni Association Freehold Best Tan Award winner, 10 yrs running
True Christian™
|
|
Posts: 2,048
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Chateau Lebeau (Freehold, Iowa)
|
|
Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud :) -
08-31-2009, 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catholic - Christian
I find myself neither frightened or ashamed of my Church. Why do you feel this way?
|
Most people who have been molested during their early years develope personality disorders. You seem to be in the same boat as those girls who are married off to 50 year old pedophiles and grow thinking they are normal and that thw way they feel inside is typical. You poor thing. You're too messed up in the head to even recognize how truly miserable you really are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catholic - Christian
I think you know what I mean and you're being intentially difficult.
However, for the moment I will pretend you are as thoughtless as you claim and restate the question.
|
No need to insult me becuase of your failure to convey your thoughts in writting.
God's will manifested on earth and here we are.
We're Christians because Christ founded us.
The Desert. But more imporatantly, in our hearts.
To save our souls from the Hell Fire He Himself created.
Quote:
From what religion did you branch from?
|
We aren't some false religion that was made up at some random junction in history. Our faith is the first and only faith. There was nothing before the Word.
Quote:
Or... do you even know? Are you dodging the question because you really don't have a history?
|
This from a guy whose religion is a hodge podge of various roman pagan sects. Speak plainly. Don't ask me a question and then demand an answer that is outside the scope of the question. Tell me exactly what it is you want to know. I don't know what you're trying to pull here, but my patience is running thin. We take Jesus seriously here.
|
|
Biblical Poet, Warrior and Scholar Biblical Black Belt Jr. Pastor
True Christian™
|
|
Posts: 6,232
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
|
Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud :) -
09-01-2009, 04:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catholic - Christian
Sigh.
Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).
God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.
And yes. I know you think Catholicism to be a cult of some sort.
But I will persevere.
|
Hey heathen, may I ask why you stole your response from here: http://www.catholic.com/library/Pray...the_Saints.asp without citing or giving credit to the original author, trying to pass it off as your own work? That's called plagiarism you know. God does not condone stealing, you thief.
|
|
Putting the "stud" back in Bible Study
|
|
Posts: 79,909
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Freehold, Iowa
|
|
Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud :) -
09-01-2009, 04:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heathen_Basher
Hey heathen, may I ask why you stole your response from here: http://www.catholic.com/library/Pray...the_Saints.asp without citing or giving credit to the original author, trying to pass it off as your own work? That's called plagiarism you know. God does not condone stealing, you thief.
|
Papists are born liars and thieves, that's why.
Here is a partial list from just a few scripture verses:
Hypocrites (Matthew 24:51), The Unforgiving (Mark 11:26), Homosexuals (Romans 1:26, 27), Fornicators (Romans 1:29), The Wicked (Romans 1:29), The Covetous (Romans 1:29), The Malicious (Romans 1:29), The Envious (Romans 1:29), Murderers (Romans 1:29), The Deceitful (Romans 1:29), Backbiters (Romans 1:30), Haters of God (Romans 1:30), The Despiteful (Romans 1:30), The Proud (Romans 1:30), Boasters (Romans 1:30), Inventors of evil (Romans 1:30), Disobedient to parents (Romans 1:30), Covenant breakers (Romans 1:31), The Unmerciful (Romans 1:31), The Implacable (Romans 1:31), The Unrighteous (1Corinthians 6:9), Idolaters (1Corinthians 6:9), Adulterers (1Corinthians 6:9), The Effeminate (1Corinthians 6:9), Thieves (1Corinthians 6:10), Drunkards (1Corinthians 6:10), Reviler (1Corinthians 6:10), Extortioners (1Corinthians 6:10), The Fearful (Revelation 21:8), The Unbelieving (Revelation 21:8), The Abominable (Revelation 21:8), Whoremongers (Revelation 21:8), Sorcerers (Revelation 21:8), All Liars (Revelation 21:8)
|
|
Biblical Poet, Warrior and Scholar Biblical Black Belt Jr. Pastor
True Christian™
|
|
Posts: 6,232
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
|
Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud :) -
09-01-2009, 04:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catholic - Christian
I was happy. I thought you were unlike your bretheren here. Forgive me for the mistake.
|
You should worry about getting forgiveness from Jesus for being an idolater.
Quote:
Jesus loved Mary. Why don't you?
|
Don't be ridiculous, Jesus HATED Mary: http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0504/mothersday.html
And Catholics make Mary cry: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0040/0040_01.asp
|
|
Papist Stooge
|
|
Posts: 401
Join Date: Aug 2009
|
|
Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud :) -
09-01-2009, 04:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catholic - Christian
I pray brother, let Christ work through you here. Do not let Satan touch you now, do not let them drag you down their path. For if you fall, as these have here, you may never be able to pull yourself out. Maintain your composure as a representative of Christ's Church, stand tall and do not let them touch you. Let them strike at your heel, and answer with love brother. Help me save them.
And I say, let them come. Send me your worst. Bring questions on all fronts. For the questions will end long before the answers do. I will pray fervently that one, just one single soul might be brought home to Christ's Church thought our efforts here.
|
Don't worry, I am strong in my beliefs! I have the Blessed Mother fighting on my side The other day I was reading Dante's Divine Comedy, and I was having fun picturing these Landover people stuck in the hell described there Yeah, it would be nice if some of them converted, but honestly, I just want them to shut up. Too bad we aren't allowed to burn heretics anymore like we did in the good old days before this stupid separation of church and state.
in nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritūs Sancti
|
|
Unsaved trash, ring-kissing teenager
|
|
Posts: 101
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: I'm Christian, despite what this site CHANGED my username to say
|
|
Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud :) -
09-01-2009, 04:18 AM
NOTE: THIS YOUNG MAN HAS SPENT HIS YOUTH BEING BUGGERED BY PAPIST PRIESTS. HIS MENTAL STATE IS THEREFORE QUESTIONABLE. KEEP THIS IN MIND AS YOU READ HIS DISTURBING POSTS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heathen_Basher
Hey heathen, may I ask why you stole your response from here: http://www.catholic.com/library/Pray...the_Saints.asp without citing or giving credit to the original author, trying to pass it off as your own work? That's called plagiarism you know. God does not condone stealing, you thief.
|
Lol. Well wouldn't I have been infracted for linking to a heathen website? But since you graciously applied the link for me I will highly recommend all of you to venture there! And while you're at it, check out the other websites I use, particullarly my favorite:
[satanic catlicker link deleted]
Oh, and if you infract me for that one, infract Heathen Basher too
And also heathen basher, I never claimed this to be my own writing.
However, you my friend, have somehow dodged the point here. Does it matter if these are my words or not? The point is that it is not a seance. And you didn't dispute that at all. Instead, you attack the techinicallities of my arguement instead of the arguement itself! And you know what??
ITS OK.
Because you are GOING to run out of answers friend. You see it already happening here.
Last edited by Remy Lebeau; 09-01-2009 at 06:08 PM.
Reason: This is a Christian forum: No papistry allowed!
|
|
Unsaved trash, ring-kissing teenager
|
|
Posts: 101
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: I'm Christian, despite what this site CHANGED my username to say
|
|
Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud :) -
09-01-2009, 04:23 AM
NOTE: THIS YOUNG MAN HAS SPENT HIS YOUTH BEING BUGGERED BY PAPIST PRIESTS. HIS MENTAL STATE IS THEREFORE QUESTIONABLE. KEEP THIS IN MIND AS YOU READ HIS DISTURBING POSTS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Ezekiel
Papists are born liars and thieves, that's why.
|
If I lie it is because of ignorance. Feel free to enlighten me
However, you are running out of answers aren't you? For consistently the only feedback I'm getting from you all has nothing to do with scripture, which is what you guys are supposed to be all about right?
Last edited by Remy Lebeau; 09-01-2009 at 06:08 PM.
|
|
Putting the "stud" back in Bible Study
|
|
Posts: 79,909
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Freehold, Iowa
|
|
Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud :) -
09-01-2009, 04:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catholic - Christian
If I lie it is because of ignorance. Feel free to enlighten me
However, you are running out of answers aren't you? For consistently the only feedback I'm getting from you all has nothing to do with scripture, which is what you guys are supposed to be all about right?
|
Pearls before swine, papist.
Quote:
Luke 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
|
Here is a partial list from just a few scripture verses:
Hypocrites (Matthew 24:51), The Unforgiving (Mark 11:26), Homosexuals (Romans 1:26, 27), Fornicators (Romans 1:29), The Wicked (Romans 1:29), The Covetous (Romans 1:29), The Malicious (Romans 1:29), The Envious (Romans 1:29), Murderers (Romans 1:29), The Deceitful (Romans 1:29), Backbiters (Romans 1:30), Haters of God (Romans 1:30), The Despiteful (Romans 1:30), The Proud (Romans 1:30), Boasters (Romans 1:30), Inventors of evil (Romans 1:30), Disobedient to parents (Romans 1:30), Covenant breakers (Romans 1:31), The Unmerciful (Romans 1:31), The Implacable (Romans 1:31), The Unrighteous (1Corinthians 6:9), Idolaters (1Corinthians 6:9), Adulterers (1Corinthians 6:9), The Effeminate (1Corinthians 6:9), Thieves (1Corinthians 6:10), Drunkards (1Corinthians 6:10), Reviler (1Corinthians 6:10), Extortioners (1Corinthians 6:10), The Fearful (Revelation 21:8), The Unbelieving (Revelation 21:8), The Abominable (Revelation 21:8), Whoremongers (Revelation 21:8), Sorcerers (Revelation 21:8), All Liars (Revelation 21:8)
|
|
Biblical Poet, Warrior and Scholar Biblical Black Belt Jr. Pastor
True Christian™
|
|
Posts: 6,232
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
|
Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud :) -
09-01-2009, 04:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catholic - Christian
And also heathen basher, I never claimed this to be my own writing.
|
You never claimed it not to be your writing. In any academic environment, you would have been failed. In a professional environment you would have been fired/sued. You continued the post as if you wrote it. There was no quotation marks, no indication that you didn't write that. You want us to believe you wrote it even when you didn't. You are a liar and a thief. Great morals your church has taught you.
Quote:
However, you my friend, have somehow dodged the point here. Does it matter if these are my words or not? The point is that it is not a seance. And you didn't dispute that at all. Instead, you attack the techinicallities of my arguement instead of the arguement itself! And you know what??
|
Now let me show you how you would do that properly.
Here's an interesting article I found at: http://www.carm.org/religious-moveme...aints-biblical
Quote:
Is praying to the saints biblical?
One of the erroneous teachings of the Roman Catholic Church is the doctrine of praying to the saints. Catholicism teaches that it is okay to offer prayers not only to God but also to creatures such as Mary, Joseph, and others who have entered heaven. Is it biblical to pray to anyone other than God? We firmly hold that it is not biblical and that to pray to anyone other than God is idolatrous. Nevertheless, Roman Catholics will try and find whatever they can in Scripture to demonstrate that praying to the saints is permitted. One of the major sections of Scripture used to support this is found in Rev. 5:8-14"And when He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy art Thou to take the book, and to break its seals; for Thou wast slain, and didst purchase for God with Thy blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 "And Thou hast made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth." 11 And I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." 13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." 14 And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped," (Rev. 5:8-14)
Let's look at this section of scripture from the Roman Catholic perspective and then analyze their position.
Verse 8 says speaks of the "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." Verses 9-10 speak of a new song sung in heaven. Verse 11 speaks of those around the throne of God and verse 12 says that they were saying "Worthy is the Lamb..." Verse 13 mentions every created thing in heaven and earth saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
We have no problem with those in heaven hearing what is said on earth. Many Christians deny that this is possible, but it seems to be clearly taught here. Does this justify the Roman Catholic teaching of praying to those who are in heaven? Not at all. Let's take a look at the verses.
First, regarding verse 8, can the prayers be authored by those who are already in heaven? It doesn't say. There are different interpretations on exactly who the saints are because their identity can't be precisely demonstrated; after all, Revelation is a highly symbolic book. Therefore, if it cannot be demonstrated conclusively who they are, then it cannot be demonstrated conclusively whose prayers they are, either. Nevertheless, verse 9 says "they sang a new song." Who is the "they"? It would have to be either the the four living creatures and/or the 24 elders since "prayers of the saints" don't sing, "creatures" and "elders" do the singing.
In verse 11-12 the angels, the creatures, and the elders who were all around the throne (which means they are in heaven) were praising God directly. In verse 13 it says every created thing in heaven and earth was praising God, then the elders fell down and worshiped, v. 14.
Second, just because those in heaven can hear the prayers of those on Earth does not mean that is okay to pray to saints. If they can hear the prayers of people it is because God grants that to them. Think about it. Can those in heaven hear the prayers uttered without speech? Can they read minds? It is only God who knows all things and only God can grant anyone to hear or know what the prayers are of those who pray in silence. Let's not give the saints superhuman powers similar to omniscience. Nevertheless, all the text is saying is that they can hear the praise and worship of God. It does not say that they are to receive prayers, nor does it imply praying to them is permitted. All it says is that they can hear the prayers and praise. There is nothing suggesting that those on Earth are requesting the prayers or intercession of those in heaven. Nothing like this is in the text nor is there even a hint of it.
Third, even if the case can be made that prayers are authored in heaven, and that those prayers are mingled with the prayers of those from Earth, it still does not justify those on Earth praying to those in heaven. At best, all that we can say is that the prayers of those in heaven and the prayers of those on Earth are mingled. To say any more than that is to read into the Scripture what is not there.
Fourth, can the saints in heaven hear every prayer of every creature all the time? The Roman Catholic Church prefers to say that it's possible; otherwise, it would not be possible to pray to Mary legitimately. The standard Protestant objection is that praying to the saints implies a type of omniscience on the hearers' part. The Roman Catholic Church replies that we do not know what the state is of those in heaven and that we should not therefore conclude that they cannot hear all of our prayers. But this is an argument from silence. In other words, we don't know what it is like so we conclude it's possible. It is an argument based on what we do not know, not what we do know. This is a very, very weak way of trying to present a position. Ultimately, it is an admission by the Roman Catholic Church that the Scriptures do not teach in any direct way their dogma of praying to the saints. The Roman Catholic Church must infer this from scripture and read it into the text in order to support its error.
To Whom should we pray?
There is no biblical teaching at all that states we are to pray to those who once were alive on earth and are now in heaven. Revelation, the same book used by them to justify their position says the following:"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy," (Rev. 19:10).
John wants to bow the knee and worship the angel. But the angel tells him not to do that because he is a fellow creature. If the angel says that he is a fellow creature like John, and that John is not to bow to him, then neither should anyone else bow to an angel, or any creature so as to offer worship. Worship includes prayer. Therefore, no one should pray to any created thing.
Biblically, prayer is always offered to God, and is a form of worship. All religions view prayer as an act of worship to their god(s) since they contain petitions, confession of sin, requests of intercession, etc., things which are received and answered by God, not by created things. Also, prayer is not the same thing as talking to someone face-to-face. Prayer is a humble petition to the Lord and not to a friend who's in the same room with you or on the other end of the phone -- or in heaven. Prayer is offered to God, never to any created thing. To do so is to offer worship that should only be directed to God, which is idolatry. Prayer should be offered only to God, and the Roman Catholic Church needs to repent of its false and idolatrous practice of praying to the saints.
|
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
Powered by Jesus - vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skin developed by: vBStyles.com
Content Landover Baptist Forums © 1620, 2022 all rights reserved
|