Go Back   The Landover Baptist Church Forum > Church Forums > Catholic Superstition
Reload this Page Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians
Catholic Superstition The lies of the Catholic "church" exposed in light of the truth of Scripture

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
(#81)
Old
Pastor Billy-Reuben's Avatar
Pastor Billy-Reuben Pastor Billy-Reuben is offline
Senior Pastor
VP of Evangelical Outreach
On FIRE for Jesus
True Christian™

One Year/1000 posts Saved 1 Year Saved 5 Years 1st Year Bible College 2nd Year Bible College 3rd Year Bible College Saved 10 Years 4th Year Bible College 2008 Witch Hunt Award Long service medal, 1st class Christian Love True Christian™ The Al E. Pistle Award for Excellence in Rebuking Tithing Manager True Christian Provider™ award Ribfest '02 Real American™ Senior Pastor Heaven Bound TC Bravery Protected by JESUS Pastor of GOD Ex-Masturbator Super Soaker Baptism Award Ready for the Rapture True Christian Caucasian The Lord’s Witness Wound Jailed for JESUS Teabag Patriot Friend of Jesus Flat Earth Tell her once Persecuted Pro-Life Eats the Most Pork True Republican Guns, Guts and GLORY!

 
Posts: 6,016
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Libertydale, NC
Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!
Default Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians - 11-11-2008, 04:27 AM

I've warned you and I've infracted you. Please stick to the real Bible, the KJV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Well God bless you brother. The Bible tells me that I am blessed by your curses and persecution.

Matthew 5:11-12
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
That only applies to Christians, friend. Catholics Aren't Christians.

We were on our own forum, praising God and fellowshipping, and then you showed up to persecute us and say all manner of evil against us falsely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
But let me remind you what Jesus taught about those who reject apostolic teaching in favor of their own private interpreations and human judgements.
You need to remind yourself of that, friend. We don't interpret or judge the Word of God here. We accept it as plain literal fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Luke 10:16
He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
Like the other verse you quoted, this one also only applies to Christians delivering the Word of God.

Pastor Billy-Reuben


Upon request I will cite scripture for all these facts in God's Holy Word.

✝ This is a Christian community and we worship GOD of the Holy bible, the only Living GOD. We worship Jesus Christ, Son of GOD and Savior. Anything else is absurd. ✝
Trump / Arpaio 2016 -- The Government We Deserve
#ChristianLivesMatter

Reply With Quote
(#82)
Old
ApoplecticFalseChristian's Avatar
ApoplecticFalseChristian ApoplecticFalseChristian is offline
Unrepentant Papist Dog
Forum Member
 
Posts: 40
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: The Place of Legends
ApoplecticFalseChristian is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.ApoplecticFalseChristian is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.
Default Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians - 11-11-2008, 04:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
I've warned you and I've infracted you. Please stick to the real Bible, the KJV.


That only applies to Christians, friend. Catholics Aren't Christians.

We were on our own forum, praising God and fellowshipping, and then you showed up to persecute us and say all manner of evil against us falsely.


You need to remind yourself of that, friend. We don't interpret or judge the Word of God here. We accept it as plain literal fact.


Like the other verse you quoted, this one also only applies to Christians delivering the Word of God.

Pastor Billy-Reuben
Brother Billy - are you going to give me an infraction for every post I make? I used the KJV as my reference per your demands so why are you citing me? Is it the wrong KJV version? Can you point me to a link to an online version that you accept as the proper KJV version?

In your "welcome" message you indicated that you were open to dialog with other denominations to discuss scripture faith. Are you now telling me I can't make any comments here because in your eyes I am not a Christian??? That is not a think for you to judge brother - only the just judge can do that. We Catholics accept Baptist as marginal Christians since you are baptised and therefor fall under the authority of the true apostolic church and Christ's Vicar - the pope. But you lack an apostolic authority to teach the full gospel and do not have any means to be assured of forgivness of grave sins for those sins committed after baptism brother.

You need to open two way dialog and stop bullying me with false infractions to discuss and learn important truths which you lack. Is this an adult Christian forum?

God Bless,
ApostolicChristian


Matthew 16:18: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."
2 Thess 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
Reply With Quote
(#83)
Old
Pastor Billy-Reuben's Avatar
Pastor Billy-Reuben Pastor Billy-Reuben is offline
Senior Pastor
VP of Evangelical Outreach
On FIRE for Jesus
True Christian™

One Year/1000 posts Saved 1 Year Saved 5 Years 1st Year Bible College 2nd Year Bible College 3rd Year Bible College Saved 10 Years 4th Year Bible College 2008 Witch Hunt Award Long service medal, 1st class Christian Love True Christian™ The Al E. Pistle Award for Excellence in Rebuking Tithing Manager True Christian Provider™ award Ribfest '02 Real American™ Senior Pastor Heaven Bound TC Bravery Protected by JESUS Pastor of GOD Ex-Masturbator Super Soaker Baptism Award Ready for the Rapture True Christian Caucasian The Lord’s Witness Wound Jailed for JESUS Teabag Patriot Friend of Jesus Flat Earth Tell her once Persecuted Pro-Life Eats the Most Pork True Republican Guns, Guts and GLORY!

 
Posts: 6,016
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Libertydale, NC
Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!
Default Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians - 11-11-2008, 04:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Hey brother Billy. How goes it tonight? I don't know where you got that silly idea that I deified Peter here; and I certainly didn't even mention Mary here.
I know that you Catholics will say anything. I know that you pray to saints, which are nothing more than Roman deities given a Christian makeover. I know that you pray to "Mary", however the Mary that YOU pray to is the Queen of Heaven, also known to the Canaanites as Ashtaroth wife of Baal, also known as Astarte to the Greeks, also known as Ishtar to the Babylonians. Baal and Ashtaroth are also known to the Wiccans as the Lord and Lady.

Your false pagan religion has been cut to the quick and laid bare, pagan. Peter was an important Apostle but he was no pope. The Holy Spirit is the Vicar of Christ, not any man. Emporer Constantine was the first Pope. He took Roman paganism, slapped a thin veneer of Christianity over it, and declared himself the infallible leader of this new religion. Then he proceeded to persecute the real Christians. THAT is your legacy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Catholics are not bible-centric - we do not not deify the bible.
The Bible isn't a diety or an idol of any kind, but it is the ONLY way to know God's Will. If you rely on anything else, then YOU are the one who is relying on someone else's private interpretation.

Pastor Billy-Reuben


Upon request I will cite scripture for all these facts in God's Holy Word.

✝ This is a Christian community and we worship GOD of the Holy bible, the only Living GOD. We worship Jesus Christ, Son of GOD and Savior. Anything else is absurd. ✝
Trump / Arpaio 2016 -- The Government We Deserve
#ChristianLivesMatter

Reply With Quote
(#84)
Old
Pastor Billy-Reuben's Avatar
Pastor Billy-Reuben Pastor Billy-Reuben is offline
Senior Pastor
VP of Evangelical Outreach
On FIRE for Jesus
True Christian™

One Year/1000 posts Saved 1 Year Saved 5 Years 1st Year Bible College 2nd Year Bible College 3rd Year Bible College Saved 10 Years 4th Year Bible College 2008 Witch Hunt Award Long service medal, 1st class Christian Love True Christian™ The Al E. Pistle Award for Excellence in Rebuking Tithing Manager True Christian Provider™ award Ribfest '02 Real American™ Senior Pastor Heaven Bound TC Bravery Protected by JESUS Pastor of GOD Ex-Masturbator Super Soaker Baptism Award Ready for the Rapture True Christian Caucasian The Lord’s Witness Wound Jailed for JESUS Teabag Patriot Friend of Jesus Flat Earth Tell her once Persecuted Pro-Life Eats the Most Pork True Republican Guns, Guts and GLORY!

 
Posts: 6,016
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Libertydale, NC
Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!
Default Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians - 11-11-2008, 04:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Brother Billy - are you going to give me an infraction for every post I make? I used the KJV as my reference per your demands so why are you citing me?
You are right. I apologize, and I reversed the infraction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
We Catholics accept Baptist as marginal Christians since you are baptised and therefor fall under the authority of the true apostolic church and Christ's Vicar - the pope. But you lack an apostolic authority to teach the full gospel and do not have any means to be assured of forgivness of grave sins for those sins committed after baptism brother.
You have the plan of salvation all wrong, friend. The Pope has no authority. No man is an intermediary between anyone and God. Baptism isn't what makes one a Christian. Repenting of your sins and accepting Christ as your savior is what makes one a Christian. Repent means to be willing to turn away and stop sinning altogether. Christians don't sin once we get saved. The fact that you have Catholics running around sinning after they are baptized is proof that your infant baptisms don't do anything, and receiving "forgiveness" from a man in a dress in a dark room doesn't make you saved.

1John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Is baptism for infants, or for believers only?

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Pastor Billy-Reuben


Upon request I will cite scripture for all these facts in God's Holy Word.

✝ This is a Christian community and we worship GOD of the Holy bible, the only Living GOD. We worship Jesus Christ, Son of GOD and Savior. Anything else is absurd. ✝
Trump / Arpaio 2016 -- The Government We Deserve
#ChristianLivesMatter

Reply With Quote
(#85)
Old
ApoplecticFalseChristian's Avatar
ApoplecticFalseChristian ApoplecticFalseChristian is offline
Unrepentant Papist Dog
Forum Member
 
Posts: 40
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: The Place of Legends
ApoplecticFalseChristian is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.ApoplecticFalseChristian is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.
Default Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians - 11-11-2008, 05:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
I know that you Catholics will say anything. I know that pray to saints, which are nothing more than Roman deities given a Christian makeover. I know that you pray to "Mary", however the Mary that YOU pray to is the Queen of Heaven, also known to the Canaanites as Ashtaroth wife of Baal, also known as Astarte to the Greeks, also known as Ishtar to the Babylonians. Baal and Ashtaroth are also known to the Wiccans as the Lord and Lady.
Brother Billy, pardon me but it appears to me that you are reading too many extra-biblical secular conspiracy sources to arrive at such wild conclusions about Catholics. Good gracious me, this sounds like something right out of Jack Chick's ideas. Do you read his falsehoods to get such ideas about Catholics??

We Catholics believe that The Church has two dimensions just as Christ did - a human physical dimension and a supernatural dimension that is in heaven. We believe in the Communion of Saints and I can give you many scriptural references if you would like to hear them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
Your false pagan religion has been cut to the quick and laid bare, pagan. Peter was an important Apostle but he was no pope. The Holy Spirit is the Vicar of Christ, not any man. Emperor Constantine was the first Pope. He took Roman paganism, slapped a thin veneer of Christianity over it, and declared himself the infallible leader of this new religion. Then he proceeded to persecute the real Christians. THAT is your legacy.
None of these claims come from the bible brother Billy. So you have to go to the historical record to come to these conclusions. But all the history that I know of does not support this view. Can you cite your sources?
You do not that all Catholic popes must accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Saviour and be baptised do you not? Do you know that Constantine did not accept baptism until he was near death. Therefor it was impossible for Constantine to be a pope and we reject this silly idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
The Bible isn't a diety or an idol of any kind, but it is the ONLY way to know God's Will. If you rely on anything else, then YOU are the one who is relying on someone else's private interpretation.

Pastor Billy-Reuben
That is not what my bible tells me about discerning God's will brother Billy. You do know that there was no bible until around 374 AD when Catholic Pope St. Damasus commissioned St. Jerome to assemble the original canon don't you? This was to stop the many heresies that were developing from false non-apostolic teachings. In fact NO apostle ever saw a bible and most certainly would not recognize some of the false and man made teachings that came out of the Reformation. The Church (with the Holy Spirit guidance) begot the bible; the bible did not beget the church. You have created a chicken and egg delimma brother Billy since you can not know the above things as facts unless you go outside the bible to tradition of the early church. A sola Scripturaist can not do that without violating his own standards. Do you imagine that the original Christians were not saved without having a bible for 2-3 centuries?

ApostolicChristian


Matthew 16:18: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."
2 Thess 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
Reply With Quote
(#86)
Old
Pastor Billy-Reuben's Avatar
Pastor Billy-Reuben Pastor Billy-Reuben is offline
Senior Pastor
VP of Evangelical Outreach
On FIRE for Jesus
True Christian™

One Year/1000 posts Saved 1 Year Saved 5 Years 1st Year Bible College 2nd Year Bible College 3rd Year Bible College Saved 10 Years 4th Year Bible College 2008 Witch Hunt Award Long service medal, 1st class Christian Love True Christian™ The Al E. Pistle Award for Excellence in Rebuking Tithing Manager True Christian Provider™ award Ribfest '02 Real American™ Senior Pastor Heaven Bound TC Bravery Protected by JESUS Pastor of GOD Ex-Masturbator Super Soaker Baptism Award Ready for the Rapture True Christian Caucasian The Lord’s Witness Wound Jailed for JESUS Teabag Patriot Friend of Jesus Flat Earth Tell her once Persecuted Pro-Life Eats the Most Pork True Republican Guns, Guts and GLORY!

 
Posts: 6,016
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Libertydale, NC
Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!
Default Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians - 11-11-2008, 05:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Brother Billy, pardon me but it appears to me that you are reading too many extra-biblical secular conspiracy sources to arrive at such wild conclusions about Catholics. Good gracious me, this sounds like something right out of Jack Chick's ideas. Do you read his falsehoods to get such ideas about Catholics??
Jack Chick is a good man. I know you Catholics hate him because he's got your number.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
We Catholics believe that The Church has two dimensions just as Christ did - a human physical dimension and a supernatural dimension that is in heaven. We believe in the Communion of Saints and I can give you many scriptural references if you would like to hear them.
That's just plain facts. The devil will tell nine truths to get you to believe one lie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
None of these claims come from the bible brother Billy. So you have to go to the historical record to come to these conclusions. But all the history that I know of does not support this view.
I'm guessing it's because all of the history YOU know is the propaganda they teach you in your Catholic school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
You do not that all Catholic popes must accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Saviour and be baptised do you not? Do you know that Constantine did not accept baptism until he was near death. Therefor it was impossible for Constantine to be a pope and we reject this silly idea.
He converted to Christianity at the age of 40, and lived for another 25 years. Constantine was the Emperor of Rome and he created the office of pope. Do you have evidence that the no pope until baptism rule came about before the time of Constantine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
You do know that there was no bible until around 374 AD when Catholic Pope St. Damasus commissioned St. Jerome to assemble the original canon don't you?
I knew that Pope Damascus commissioned Jerome to write a Bible, but I also know that it wasn't the first. Take a look at this.

Quote:
In 331, Constantine commissioned Eusebius to deliver fifty Bibles for the Church of Constantinople. Athanasius (Apol. Const. 4) recorded Alexandrian scribes around 340 preparing Bibles for Constans.
So there were Bibles before Jerome's time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
In fact NO apostle ever saw a bible and most certainly would not recognize some of the false and man made teachings that came out of the Reformation.
Of course the apostles didn't see a Bible, they were too busy writing their own parts of it.

I agree with you about the heretical teachings that came out of the Reformation. Good thing we Baptists weren't part of that. Baptists were the original Christians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
The Church (with the Holy Spirit guidance) begot the bible; the bible did not beget the church. You have created a chicken and egg delimma brother Billy since you can not know the above things as facts unless you go outside the bible to tradition of the early church. A sola Scripturaist can not do that without violating his own standards. Do you imagine that the original Christians were not saved without having a bible for 2-3 centuries?
Your false dilemma is easily resolved. Back then, everyone knew someone, or knew someone who knew someone, who knew one of the apostles who knew Jesus, and could get the Gospel straight. Today, we are too far removed, and the Bible is the only way to learn God's Word.

So, I get your non sequitur of a point. A man standing in a crowd in 29 AD listening to Jesus deliver the sermon on the mount can get saved without having read the Bible. A Roman who has just received Paul's epistle to them can get saved from reading it.

How are we to get saved today? Am I to believe a man in the dress who says I should count some beads and pray to a statue? Or should I believe what is in God's Word?

As a matter of fact, you can get saved today before you have read the Bible. All you have to do is be willing to give up your sins forever and accept Jesus as your savior. What have you got to lose, friend?

Pastor Billy-Reuben


Upon request I will cite scripture for all these facts in God's Holy Word.

✝ This is a Christian community and we worship GOD of the Holy bible, the only Living GOD. We worship Jesus Christ, Son of GOD and Savior. Anything else is absurd. ✝
Trump / Arpaio 2016 -- The Government We Deserve
#ChristianLivesMatter

Reply With Quote
(#87)
Old
ApoplecticFalseChristian's Avatar
ApoplecticFalseChristian ApoplecticFalseChristian is offline
Unrepentant Papist Dog
Forum Member
 
Posts: 40
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: The Place of Legends
ApoplecticFalseChristian is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.ApoplecticFalseChristian is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.
Default Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians - 11-11-2008, 08:08 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
Jack Chick is a good man. I know you Catholics hate him because he's got your number.
Mark 10:18 (KJV) And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
That's just plain facts. The devil will tell nine truths to get you to believe one lie.
Scripture reference please.

John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
I'm guessing it's because all of the history YOU know is the propaganda they teach you in your Catholic school.
Not quite. I got past all the Protestant Reformation History they teach in all the public schools and went back to the Early Church Fathers and read the real unrevised histories that came out of the secular religions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
He converted to Christianity at the age of 40, and lived for another 25 years. Constantine was the Emperor of Rome and he created the office of pope. Do you have evidence that the no pope until baptism rule came about before the time of Constantine?
Cite your references please.

You are misinformed. Constantine may have "declared" himself Catholic at around age 40 but he still maintained the title of Pontifex Maximus, which emperors bore as heads of the pagan priesthood. But the truth is one is not a Christian until one is baptised into the faith and Constantine did not do this until he was on his death bed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius of Caesarea's account
More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I_(emperor)

Eusebius of Caesarea's account resumes following the abortive Persian campaign, with Constantine set about building a martyrion for the apostles in Constantinople, and, within it, a final resting-place for himself.[203] In the course of one Feast of Easter, Constantine fell seriously ill.[204] He left Constantinople for the hot baths near his mother's city of Helenopolis (Altinova), on the southern shores of the Gulf of İzmit. There, in a church his mother built in honor of Lucian the Apostle, he prayed, and there he realized that he was dying. Seeking purification, he became a catechumen, and attempted a return to Constantinople, making it only as far as a suburb of Nicomedia.[205] He summoned the bishops, and told them of his hope to be baptized in the River Jordan, where Christ was written to have been baptized. He requested the baptism right away, promising to live a more Christian life should he live through his illness. The bishops, Eusebius records, "performed the sacred ceremonies according to custom".[206] He chose the Arianizing bishop Eusebius of Nicomedia, bishop of the city where he lay dying, as his baptizer.[207] In postponing his baptism, he followed one custom at the time which postponed baptism until old age or death.[208] It was thought Constantine put off baptism as long as he did so as to be absolved from as much of his sin as possible. [209] Constantine died soon after at a suburban villa called Achyron, on the last day of the fifty-day festival of Pentecost directly following Easter, on 22 May 337.[210]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
I knew that Pope Damascus commissioned Jerome to write a Bible, but I also know that it wasn't the first. Take a look at this.
These were not "bibles" per say but collections of some of the inspired works but also probably had some of the more popular spurious works as well. So we don't know exactly what these were. It was later under under Pope Damasus that we get a definitive canon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
Of course the apostles didn't see a Bible, they were too busy writing their own parts of it.
There were no writing assignments among the apostles. No apostle knew they were writing what would be considered bits and pieces of inspired word and were under no commandment from Jesus to write anything for that matter. What they were commanded to do was "teach" and given that very very few people could read and write at that time spoken message was the most efficacious. It is only after may heretics start developing that The Catholic Church decided to develop its official candidate from among hundreds of competing spurious works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
I agree with you about the heretical teachings that came out of the Reformation. Good thing we Baptists weren't part of that. Baptists were the original Christians.
I am happy that we agree that much of the Reformation was extremely heretical. But Baptists did not exist until after the Reformation as reformation to the Reformation and were not an original branch of Christianity. The only group anyone can point to scripturally are the disciples who abandoned Jesus difficult teaching on real presence in the bread and wine as Jesus' real body and blood. Those the Apostle John ironically marks with the sign of the beast in his accounts of these in John:6:66. Is this your group?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
Your false dilemma is easily resolved. Back then, everyone knew someone, or knew someone who knew someone, who knew one of the apostles who knew Jesus, and could get the Gospel straight. Today, we are too far removed, and the Bible is the only way to learn God's Word.
Just like all the Jews declared themselves to be saved by birthright to Abraham? This does not pan out - since most of the apostles were dispersed all over the known regions preaching the Good News. Do you think that they all Christians went to Rome to talk to Peter or Paul?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
So, I get your non sequitur of a point. A man standing in a crowd in 29 AD listening to Jesus deliver the sermon on the mount can get saved without having read the Bible. A Roman who has just received Paul's epistle to them can get saved from reading it.
Is salvation now a matter of reading comprehension? Remember almost no one could read or write back then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
How are we to get saved today? Am I to believe a man in the dress who says I should count some beads and pray to a statue? Or should I believe what is in God's Word?
Am I to believe a strange man who has no apostolic succession or teaching authority and never knew Christ or one of his apostle's successors and who shouts and screams into an amplified megaphone a salvation slogan "Jesus saves - come to Jesus" is going to get me saved? What of the other 7,959 verses of the bibles - are all those irrelevant?

Every single Bishop of the Catholic Church was hand picked by a successor of Peter and physically "layed on of hands" to convey apostolic authority. The Catholic Church has known Jesus and the apostles and their successors for 2,000 years. These were all our friends and family. No other Church on the planet can make this claim except or Orthodox brethren in the east who have a true apostolic succession too and are attempting to reunify.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
As a matter of fact, you can get saved today before you have read the Bible. All you have to do is be willing to give up your sins forever and accept Jesus as your savior. What have you got to lose, friend?

Pastor Billy-Reuben
There is no such concept as "easy believism" and salvation through self-proclamation. No man is saved until God judges him saved. No man can deny God His sovereign right to judge and make no mistake about it God will judge and many 10's of millions and perhaps even hundred of million or billions will go to hell. But we also know that God will be merciful to whom He chooses to be merciful and for this reason Catholics pray to God for all people.

All Catholics accept Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour at Baptism (or are pre-declared by their parents just like the early church did) and reaffirm this at confirmation where we are each "layed on of hands" by a true apostolic bishop of Jesus to convey our status as true priests, prophets and kings to share in Christ's anointing. Does this mean all Catholics are saved? Gracious NO! Many Catholics are just like many many Protestants who pay Jesus lip service only and will be condemned. But it is much much easier for a Catholic to be saved than any other faith since we have ALL 7 sacraments of God (ref. Rev. the 7 horns of the lamb vs the 2 horns of the false lamb that is a beast). Protestants have only 2 sacraments - baptism and marriage. After baptism Protestants have NO way to get forgiven of mortal sins since only the apostles and their successors have the authority to loose and bind sins (sacramental confession).

Matthew 7:21 (KJV)
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Hope to see you in the other side brother...

James


Matthew 16:18: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."
2 Thess 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
Reply With Quote
(#88)
Old
ApoplecticFalseChristian's Avatar
ApoplecticFalseChristian ApoplecticFalseChristian is offline
Unrepentant Papist Dog
Forum Member
 
Posts: 40
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: The Place of Legends
ApoplecticFalseChristian is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.ApoplecticFalseChristian is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.
Default Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians - 11-11-2008, 04:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
You have the plan of salvation all wrong, friend. The Pope has no authority. No man is an intermediary between anyone and God. Baptism isn't what makes one a Christian. Repenting of your sins and accepting Christ as your savior is what makes one a Christian. Repent means to be willing to turn away and stop sinning altogether. Christians don't sin once we get saved. The fact that you have Catholics running around sinning after they are baptized is proof that your infant baptisms don't do anything, and receiving "forgiveness" from a man in a dress in a dark room doesn't make you saved.
I must respectfully say that my bible tells me somthing else Brother Billy.
You have multiple issues here that I may not be able to respond to in one single post.

Please reconsider the biblical evidence that God has always worked through priests and His specially chosen authorities. Even the common sense of reason and the natural order of Creation tells us this truth. Clearly, if there was no earthly authority or law we would have severe anarchy and disorder; and this is not Godly since He is good and the essence of order and law. Perhaps this is why after the Reformation we have over 33,000 different Protestant sects as each person wants to be their own authority through private interpretation of scripture. In the perverse but well meaning ideas of Luther - every man with a bible becomes his own pope and no one agrees with his brother. But we know by the bad fruits of this disharmony of divisions and factions that this was a false doctrine and teaching of man.

Please see the following references.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scripture References for How God Transfers Authority
Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ's own authority.

Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his "bishopric") is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, "I'll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own."
Acts 1:22 - literally, "one must be ordained" to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ's authority.
Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.
Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.
Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.
Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.
Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.
2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.
Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine "office." An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it's not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.
1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word "episcopoi" (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul's use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.
1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).
1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.
2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.
2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul's life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.
2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God's intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.
Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 - the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ's work.
1 John 4:6 - whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves).
Exodus 18:25-26 - Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession.
Exodus 40:15 - the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession.
Numbers 3:3 - the sons of Aaron were formally "anointed" priests in "ordination" to minister in the priests' "office."
Numbers 16:40 - shows God's intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority.
Numbers 27:18-20 - shows God's intention that, through the "laying on of hands," one is commissioned and has authority.
Deut. 34:9 - Moses laid hands upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor, full of the spirit of wisdom. Sirach 45:15 - Moses ordains Aaron and anoints him with oil. There is a transfer of authority through formal ordination.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
Is baptism for infants, or for believers only?
Pastor Billy-Reuben
I will answer this in a seperate reply since this is getting long.

ApostolicChristian


Matthew 16:18: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."
2 Thess 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
Reply With Quote
(#89)
Old
ApoplecticFalseChristian's Avatar
ApoplecticFalseChristian ApoplecticFalseChristian is offline
Unrepentant Papist Dog
Forum Member
 
Posts: 40
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: The Place of Legends
ApoplecticFalseChristian is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.ApoplecticFalseChristian is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.
Default Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians - 11-11-2008, 06:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
Is baptism for infants, or for believers only?
Pastor Billy-Reuben
First of all let's address Baptism holistically. Here is what the Bible tells us about the need for true Christians to be baptised.

Baptism is Salvific, Not Just Symbolic

Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.


Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved." Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”

John 3:3,5 - unless we are "born again" of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase "born again" is "anothen" which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where "anothen" is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.

Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 - these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?

Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, "arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins," even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul's acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.

Acts 22:16 - further, Ananias' phrase "wash away" comes from the Greek word "apolouo." "Apolouo" means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.

Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.

1 Cor. 6:11 - Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism. The “washing” of baptism gives birth to sanctification and justification, which proves baptism is not just symbolic.

Gal. 3:27 - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.

Col. 2:12 - in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.

Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.

There is also a definite parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: (1) John 3:5 – enter the kingdom of God / Titus 3:5 – He saved us. (2) John 3:5 – born of water / Titus 3:5 – washing. (3) John 3:5 – born of the Spirit / Titus 3:5 – renewal in the Spirit.

Heb. 10:22 - in baptism, our hearts are sprinkled clean from an evil conscience (again, dealing with the interior of the person) as our bodies are washed with pure water (the waters of baptism). Baptism regenerates us because it removes original sin, sanctifies our souls, and effects our adoption as sons and daughters in Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:21 - Peter expressly writes that “baptism, corresponding to Noah's ark, now saves you; not as a removal of dirt from the body, but for a clear conscience. “ Hence, the verse demonstrates that baptism is salvific (it saves us), and deals with the interior life of the person (purifying the conscience, like Heb. 10:22), and not the external life (removing dirt from the body). Many scholars believe the phrase "not as a removal of dirt from the body" is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision (but, at a minimum, shows that baptism is not about the exterior, but interior life). Baptism is now the “circumcision” of the new Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), but it, unlike the old circumcision, actually saves us, as Noah and his family were saved by water.

Again, notice the parallel between Heb. 10:22 and 1 Peter 3:21: (1) Heb. 10:22 – draw near to the sanctuary (heaven) / 1 Peter 3:21 – now saves us. (2) Heb. 10:22 – sprinkled clean, washed with pure water / 1 Peter 3:20-21 – saved through water, baptism. (3) Heb. 10:22 – from an evil conscience (interior) / 1 Peter 3:21 – for a clear conscience (interior).
Titus 3:6 and 1 Peter 3:21 also specifically say the grace and power of baptism comes “through Jesus Christ” (who transforms our inner nature).

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. However, the Church has always taught that baptism is a normative, not an absolute necessity. There are some exceptions to the rule because God is not bound by His sacraments.

Luke 23:43 - the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word "paradise," He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol" meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Hence, the good thief was destined for heaven because of his desire to be with Jesus.

Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50 - there is also a baptism by blood. Lord says, "I have a baptism to be baptized with" referring to His death. Hence, the Church has always taught that those martyred for the faith may be saved without water baptism (e.g., the Holy Innocents).

Mark 10:38 - Jesus says "are you able...to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?," referring to His death.
1 John 5:6 - Jesus came by water and blood. He was baptized by both water and blood. Martyrs are baptized by blood.

And now let's talk about what the bible teaches us about infant baptism.

What the Bible Teaches About Infant Baptism
Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3 - these texts show the circumcision of eight-day old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant - Col 2:11-12 - however, baptism is the new "circumcision" for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant. To the contrary, He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults.


Job 14:1-4 - man that is born of woman is full of trouble and unclean. Baptism is required for all human beings because of our sinful human nature.

Psalm 51:5 - we are conceived in the iniquity of sin. This shows the necessity of baptism from conception.

Matt. 18:2-5 - Jesus says unless we become like children, we cannot enter into heaven. So why would children be excluded from baptism?

Matt 19:14 - Jesus clearly says the kingdom of heaven also belongs to children. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism.

Mark 10:14 - Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. Jesus says nothing about being too young to come into the kingdom of God.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says to the crowd, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." But in reference to the same people, Jesus immediately follows with "He who does not believe will be condemned." This demonstrates that one can be baptized and still not be a believer. This disproves the Protestant argument that one must be a believer to be baptized. There is nothing in the Bible about a "believer's baptism."

Luke 18:15 – Jesus says, “Let the children come to me.” The people brought infants to Jesus that he might touch them. This demonstrates that the receipt of grace is not dependent upon the age of reason.

Acts 2:38 - Peter says to the multitude, "Repent and be baptized.." Protestants use this verse to prove one must be a believer (not an infant) to be baptized. But the Greek translation literally says, "If you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized” (“Metanoesate kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.”) This, contrary to what Protestants argue, actually proves that babies are baptized based on their parents’ faith. This is confirmed in the next verse.

Acts 2:39 - Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults. “Those far off” refers to those who were at their “homes” (primarily infants and children). God's covenant family includes children. The word "children" that Peter used comes from the Greek word "teknon" which also includes infants.

Luke 1:59 - this proves that "teknon" includes infants. Here, John as a "teknon" (infant) was circumcised. See also Acts 21:21 which uses “teknon” for eight-day old babies. So baptism is for infants as well as adults.

Acts 10:47-48 - Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius, which generally included infants and young children. There is not one word in Scripture about baptism being limited to adults.

Acts 16:15 - Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word "household" comes from the Greek word "oikos" which is a household that includes infants and children.

Acts 16:15 - further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia's faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents' faith, not the children's faith.

Acts 16:30-33 - it was only the adults who were candidates for baptism that had to profess a belief in Jesus. This is consistent with the Church's practice of instructing catechumens before baptism. But this verse does not support a "believer's baptism" requirement for everyone. See Acts
16:15,33. The earlier one comes to baptism, the better. For those who come to baptism as adults, the Church has always required them to profess their belief in Christ. For babies who come to baptism, the Church has always required the parents to profess the belief in Christ on behalf of the baby. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about a requirement for ALL baptism candidates to profess their own belief in Christ (because the Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years).

Acts 16:33 - Paul baptized the jailer (an adult) and his entire household (which had to include children). Baptism is never limited to adults and those of the age of reason. See also Luke 19:9; John 4:53; Acts 11:14; 1
Cor. 1:16; and 1 Tim. 3:12; Gen. 31:41; 36:6; 41:51; Joshua 24:15; 2 Sam. 7:11, 1 Chron. 10:6 which shows “oikos” generally includes children.
Rom. 5:12 - sin came through Adam and death through sin. Babies' souls are affected by Adam's sin and need baptism just like adult souls.
Rom. 5:15 - the grace of Jesus Christ surpasses that of the Old Covenant. So children can also enter the new Covenant in baptism. From a Jewish perspective, it would have been unthinkable to exclude infants and children from God's Covenant kingdom.

1 Cor. 1:16 - Paul baptized the household ("oikos") of Stephanus. Baptism is not limited to adults.

Eph. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - Paul addresses the "saints" of the Church, and these include the children he addresses in Eph. 6:1 and Col. 3:20. Children become saints of the Church only through baptism.

Eph. 2:3 - we are all by nature children of wrath, in sin, like all mankind. Infants are no exception. See also Psalm 51:5 and Job 14:1-4 which teach us we are conceived in sin and born unclean.

2 Thess. 3:10 - if anyone does not work let him not eat. But this implies that those who are unable to work should still be able to eat. Babies should not starve because they are unable to work, and should also not be denied baptism because they are unable to make a declaration of faith.

Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:3-5 - the faith of those who brought in the paralytic cured the paralytic's sins. This is an example of the forgiveness of sins based on another's faith, just like infant baptism. The infant child is forgiven of sin based on the parents' faith.

Matt. 8:5-13 - the servant is healed based upon the centurion's faith. This is another example of healing based on another's faith. If Jesus can heal us based on someone else’s faith, then He can baptize us based on someone else’s faith as well.

Mark 9:22-25 - Jesus exercises the child's unclean spirit based on the father's faith. This healing is again based on another's faith.

1 Cor. 7:14 – Paul says that children are sanctified by God through the belief of only one of their parents.

Exodus 12:24-28 - the Passover was based on the parent's faith. If they
did not kill and eat the lamb, their first-born child died.
Joshua 5:2-7 - God punished Israel because the people had not circumcised their children. This was based on the parent's faith. The parents play a critical role in their child's salvation.


I hope that helps you understand what the Bible teaches Catholics about Baptism and Infant Baptism Brother Billy.

ApostolicChristian


Matthew 16:18: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."
2 Thess 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
Reply With Quote
(#90)
Old
Ezekiel Bathfire's Avatar
Ezekiel Bathfire Ezekiel Bathfire is offline
Pastor for Diversity and Tolerance
Christ's Rottweiler
 

One Year/1000 posts Saved 1 Year 1st Year Bible College 2nd Year Bible College 3rd Year Bible College 4th Year Bible College True Christian™ The Al E. Pistle Award for Excellence in Rebuking Christian Love Real American™ Tithing Manager Heaven Bound Protected by JESUS True Scientist™ Pastor of GOD Ex-Masturbator Super Soaker Baptism Award Ready for the Rapture True Christian Caucasian Senior Pastor Teabag Patriot TC Bravery Friend of Jesus Flat Earth Tell her once Persecuted Porn Resistant The Hatchet Child Rearing Award Ex-Brit Eats the Most Pork True Republican Ex-eurotrash Batman Shooting Survivor Loves a GODLY Chic-Fil-A Guns, Guts and GLORY! Proud Niglet Sponsorer Kirk Cameron Fan Club Nuts for JESUS! Prayer Warrior Touched by Jesus Stamp of Approval Rick Perry's Niggerhead Ranch Mower Donald Trump 2016! Anti-sodomy Pastor Ezekiel Aardvark Bathfire Crown of Life Alternative Facts Probing for Jesus 20,000 posts Saved 10 Years Proud TP Rebuker for Christ Anti-Biden

 
Posts: 22,727
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Toiling selflessly towards Salvation
Ezekiel Bathfire will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Ezekiel Bathfire will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Ezekiel Bathfire will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Ezekiel Bathfire will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Ezekiel Bathfire will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Ezekiel Bathfire will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Ezekiel Bathfire will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Ezekiel Bathfire will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Ezekiel Bathfire will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Ezekiel Bathfire will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Ezekiel Bathfire will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!
Default Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians - 11-12-2008, 01:50 AM

[quote=ApostolicFalseChristian;261721] Originally Posted by Scripture References for How God Transfers Authority
Quote:
Please reconsider the biblical evidence that God has always worked through priests
I’m not sure I agree with the word “priest” – disciple, apostle, follower, yes, but priest?
Quote:
Clearly, if there was no earthly authority or law we would have severe anarchy and disorder; and this is not Godly since He is good and the essence of order and law.
You have omitted the probity and authenticity of the keeper of the law.
Quote:
Perhaps this is why after the Reformation we have over 33,000 different Protestant sects as each person wants to be their own authority through private interpretation of scripture.
Now why would anyone disagree with Rome?
Quote:
In the perverse but well meaning ideas of Luther - every man with a bible becomes his own pope and no one agrees with his brother. But we know by the bad fruits of this disharmony of divisions and factions that this was a false doctrine and teaching of man.
the holders of the office of the vicar of Rome were, in their majority, not renowned for being good men.

Quote:
Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ's own authority.
But here we have men of equal rank appointing others to equal rank to go forth themselves as missionaries and selection is done by lots. Membership of the Apostles is in question here, not papal succession.

Quote:
Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his "bishopric") is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin.
You must be careful of using phrases like “authority” and “Bishopric” – the bishops of the catholic church are sinners who defy the word of God.
Quote:
The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all.
A cynic might add, as a way of raising money and having political influence.
Quote:
God never said, "I'll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own."
He never said that he would give anyone leaders, the apostles took it upon themselves to select from amongst their ranks in equality.
Quote:
Acts 1:22 - literally, "one must be ordained" to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ's authority.
Let us not forget that “to be ordained” merely means to be appointed.
Quote:
Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.
Fine $10 words but we are talking here about people appointing people of equal merit, we are not talking a behemoth of a business conglomerate with everything from peons to a CEO.
Quote:
Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop.
I suppose I better what makes you think that Ananias was a bishop – he was a Disciple, this we know, but a bishop?
Quote:
This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles
You are confusing apostles with the ragamuffins of the catholic church. As yet you have established precisely nothing save that you are impressed by words..
Quote:
Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.
You’ve not been listening have you?


I’m not going any further with this. You’re confabulating Bishops, Apostles, and Disciples and your unimpressive use of “ordination” has left me with the intense feeling that a Jesuit believes 7 impossible things before breakfast.

Anyway, as you’re so keen on bishops, and as none of the vicar of Rome’s bishops are married, what do you make of this?

1Tm:3:1: This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Tm:3:2: A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Tm:3:3: Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Tm:3:4: One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Tm:3:5: (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
1Tm:3:6: Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Tm:3:7: Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.





“We must reassert that the essence of Christianity is the love of obedience to God’s Laws and that how that complete obedience is used or implemented does not concern us.”

Author of such illuminating essays as,
Map of the Known World; Periodic Table of Elements; The History of Linguistics; The Errors of Wicca; Dolphins and Evolution; The History of Landover (The Apology); Landover and the Civil War; 2000 Racial Slurs.
Reply With Quote
(#91)
Old
Pastor Billy-Reuben's Avatar
Pastor Billy-Reuben Pastor Billy-Reuben is offline
Senior Pastor
VP of Evangelical Outreach
On FIRE for Jesus
True Christian™

One Year/1000 posts Saved 1 Year Saved 5 Years 1st Year Bible College 2nd Year Bible College 3rd Year Bible College Saved 10 Years 4th Year Bible College 2008 Witch Hunt Award Long service medal, 1st class Christian Love True Christian™ The Al E. Pistle Award for Excellence in Rebuking Tithing Manager True Christian Provider™ award Ribfest '02 Real American™ Senior Pastor Heaven Bound TC Bravery Protected by JESUS Pastor of GOD Ex-Masturbator Super Soaker Baptism Award Ready for the Rapture True Christian Caucasian The Lord’s Witness Wound Jailed for JESUS Teabag Patriot Friend of Jesus Flat Earth Tell her once Persecuted Pro-Life Eats the Most Pork True Republican Guns, Guts and GLORY!

 
Posts: 6,016
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Libertydale, NC
Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!
Default Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians - 11-12-2008, 02:23 AM

Wow, that's a lot of text. I've debated Catholics before. The debate always bifurcates uncontrollably as the Catholic attempts overwhelm his opponent with non-sequiturs, out-of-context scripture, and attacks against strawmen of his own construction. It takes hours to dismantle every single one of his arguments, and if I miss a single one, the Catholic claims victory.

I'll do my best to address the most egregious errors, but if I don't get to all of them, it's because I don't want to sit here all evening working on this one post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Mark 10:18
Out of context. Mark 10:18 doesn't mean you can't use the adjective "good" to describe a person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
John 8:44
Out of context. The Devil's ultimate goal it to make us believe lies, but that doesn't mean every single statement out of his mouth is false. Remember, Satan told Eve that if she ate the fruit, she would not die that day, her eyes would be opened, and she would know good and evil. That was all true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Constantine may have "declared" himself Catholic at around age 40 but he still maintained the title of Pontifex Maximus, which emperors bore as heads of the pagan priesthood.
Right, and the Pope today is the head of the pagan priesthood.

Quote:
The History of the claim to be Vicar of Christ

To begin with, the Bishop of Rome claimed to be the vicar of Caesar -- and his successors the rightful heirs to the Caesars. ...


Gradually, other Bishops and national monarchs accepted him as vicar and successor to Caesar with the same supreme title of “Pontifex Maximus.”
Next, the Bishops of Rome claimed to be “The vicar of the prince of the apostles[1], that is, the vicar of Peter.[2] Thus, in the early fifth century, Bishop Innocent I (401-417 A.D.) insisted that Christ had delegated supreme power to Peter and made him the Bishop of Rome.
more...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
These were not "bibles" per say but collections of some of the inspired works but also probably had some of the more popular spurious works as well. So we don't know exactly what these were.
A collection of inspired works is exactly what the Bible is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
It was later under under Pope Damasus that we get a definitive canon.
Wrong again. The Muratorian Canon was written in 170 AD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
There were no writing assignments among the apostles. No apostle knew they were writing what would be considered bits and pieces of inspired word and were under no commandment from Jesus to write anything for that matter.
The apostles might not have been aware of it, but God knew how he was using them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Am I to believe a strange man who has no apostolic succession or teaching authority and never knew Christ
You are already believing a strange man with no provable apostolic succession or teaching authority who never knew Christ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Every single Bishop of the Catholic Church was hand picked by a successor of Peter and physically "layed on of hands" to convey apostolic authority. The Catholic Church has known Jesus and the apostles and their successors for 2,000 years. These were all our friends and family. No other Church on the planet can make this claim except or Orthodox brethren in the east who have a true apostolic succession too and are attempting to reunify.
Those claims are Catholic legends and traditions, not documented history. Anyone can make claims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
There is no such concept as "easy believism" and salvation through self-proclamation. No man is saved until God judges him saved. No man can deny God His sovereign right to judge and make no mistake about it God will judge and many 10's of millions and perhaps even hundred of million or billions will go to hell. But we also know that God will be merciful to whom He chooses to be merciful
I agree 100%. Man can't save himself with words. God saves people.

The problem with Catholicism is that you think a person can't know if he's saved. You want to keep people in a perpetual state of fear and insecurity. The Bible tells us how to be assured of our salvation. We can know if we are saved, and the Bible tells us how.

2Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
2Cor 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
After baptism Protestants have NO way to get forgiven of mortal sins since only the apostles and their successors have the authority to loose and bind sins (sacramental confession).
Then it's a good thing that saved Christians don't sin. We stop sinning once we get saved. If you think you're saved, but you are running around sinning, guess what -- you ain't.

1John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

If you are saved, you don't sin. If you sin, you aren't saved.

1John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Born again Christians CANNOT sin. HALLELUJAH! Thank you Jesus! The LORD is so good!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Matthew 7:21 (KJV)
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
Good works are evidence of salvation, but they aren't the means to salvation. Salvation is a gift of God, and good works are the fruit of that gift.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Hope to see you in the other side brother...
I hope so too. All you have to do is put aside your pride and listen to Jesus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Please reconsider the biblical evidence that God has always worked through priests and His specially chosen authorities.
That's how it worked under the old covenant, with the God appointed priests and the laws about the rigorous sacrifice schedules and such. The old covenant was like a school master, preparing us for age of Grace.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Even the common sense of reason and the natural order of Creation tells us this truth. Clearly, if there was no earthly authority or law we would have severe anarchy and disorder; and this is not Godly since He is good and the essence of order and law.
I said there is no human intermediary between God and man. That is scripture (John 16:13, Gal 3:20). I never called for an abolition of spiritual leaders and secular government.[/quote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Please see the following references.
None of those are relevant. The Bible tells us to rightly divide the Word of Truth, and that's exactly what you aren't doing. The verses in Acts about how the apostles ordained other apostles is history, not relevant today. The apostles with their signs and wonders were for the unbelieving first century Jews. The only "apostles" we have today are the ones described in 2 Cor 11. Of course, if your priest DOES have apostolic authority, then he should be able to be instantly fluent in any language (Mark 16:17), or he should be able to drink a bottle of bleach with no ill effect (Mark 16:18).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
First of all let's address Baptism holistically. Here is what the Bible tells us about the need for true Christians to be baptised.
You have erected a strawman, which you have soundly trounced. Congratulations. No one claimed that baptism is meaningless symbolism. You seem to be claiming that baptism in and of itself is the way to salvation. Baptism is an act of obedience, distinct from salvation. Do you think that someone who repents and believes, but dies before being baptized, goes to Hell? Do you think that someone who accepts baptism, but does not repent and does not believe goes to Heaven?

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Pay attention to what that verse doesn't say. It doesn't say he that is not baptized shall be damned.

Notice that Eph 2:8-9 says For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. It does NOT say ye are saved through faith AND BAPTISM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.
Irrelevant. There is nothing in this passage that states that baptism cleanses one of something called "original sin".

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.
Repentence is the necessary condition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic.
I never claimed that baptism was meaningless. You are fighting your own strawmen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.
How about here:
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
That did not say, justified by faith AND BAPTISM.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
That did not say, justified by faith AND BAPTISM.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
That did not say, justified by faith AND BAPTISM.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
That did not say, saved through faith AND BAPTISM.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
That did not say, whosoever believeth in him AND IS BAPTIZED should not perish.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
That did not say, he that believeth in him AND IS BAPTIZED is not condemned, nor did it say he that believeth not OR IS NOT BAPTIZED is not condemned already, nor did it say because he hath not believed OR BEEN BAPTIZED.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
That did not say, except a man be born again AND BE BAPTIZED.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
That did not say, he that heareth my word, believeth on him that sent me, AND IS BAPTIZED.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
That did not say, confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, AND BE BAPTIZED.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
That did not say, all that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, AND IS BAPTIZED.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Mark 16:16 - Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved."
You left out half of the verse, which I have already addressed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”
I'm afraid it does.

Acts 8:36 ως δε επορευοντο κατα την οδον ηλθον επι τι υδωρ και φησιν ο ευνουχος ιδου υδωρ τι κωλυει με βαπτισθηναι
Acts 8:37 ειπεν δε ο φιλιππος ει πιστευεις εξ ολης της καρδιας εξεστιν αποκριθεις δε ειπεν πιστευω τον υιον του θεου ειναι τον ιησουν χριστον
Acts 8:38 και εκελευσεν στηναι το αρμα και κατεβησαν αμφοτεροι εις το υδωρ ο τε φιλιππος και ο ευνουχος και εβαπτισεν αυτον

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?
The first thing I wanted to do once I got saved was to get baptized (for real this time). Baptism is not a necessary condition for salvation -- salvation is a necessary condition for a meaningful baptism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 - these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?
The same reason I quit sinning after I got saved. It is just something saved people do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin.
The text does NOT say that he had to be baptized before his sins were forgiven. His sins were forgiven first, the scales fell from his eyes, and THEN he got baptized.

I skipped the rest of those because you are pretty much doing the same thing. I don't believe, and I never claimed, that baptism is meaningless symbolism. It is very important, and it is the first thing you should do once you get saved. It's only meaningless if you aren't saved. Repent and be baptized, believe and be baptized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
And now let's talk about what the bible teaches us about infant baptism.
Before we do that, how about you explain to me how an infant is capable of repenting and believing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Col 2:11-12 - however, baptism is the new "circumcision" for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant. To the contrary, He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults.
You are making an unwarranted leap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Job 14:1-4 - man that is born of woman is full of trouble and unclean. Baptism is required for all human beings because of our sinful human nature.
Job 14 says nothing about baptism. We need God's grace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Psalm 51:5 - we are conceived in the iniquity of sin. This shows the necessity of baptism from conception.
Psalm 51:5 says nothing about baptism. We need God's grace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Matt. 18:2-5 - Jesus says unless we become like children, we cannot enter into heaven. So why would children be excluded from baptism?
The verse does not support your conclusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Matt 19:14 - Jesus clearly says the kingdom of heaven also belongs to children. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism.
The verse does not support your conclusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Mark 10:14 - Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. Jesus says nothing about being too young to come into the kingdom of God.
The verse has nothing to do with baptism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Mark 16:16 - Jesus says to the crowd, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." But in reference to the same people, Jesus immediately follows with "He who does not believe will be condemned." This demonstrates that one can be baptized and still not be a believer.
This verse works strongly against your point.

Anyone can get baptized, but it only means something if you are a believer. That's why people who don't believe are condemned whether or not they are baptized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
This disproves the Protestant argument that one must be a believer to be baptized.
Believer's baptism is not a Protestant belief, it is a Baptist belief that comes straight from the Bible. Protestants like Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc all baptize infants who are too young to possibly be able to repent and believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
There is nothing in the Bible about a "believer's baptism."
Except for all the calls to believe and be baptized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Luke 18:15 – Jesus says, “Let the children come to me.” The people brought infants to Jesus that he might touch them. This demonstrates that the receipt of grace is not dependent upon the age of reason.
No one said it was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Acts 2:38 - Peter says to the multitude, "Repent and be baptized.." Protestants use this verse to prove one must be a believer (not an infant) to be baptized. But the Greek translation literally says, "If you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized” (“Metanoesate kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.”)
No, it doesn't.

Acts 2:38 πετρος δε εφη προς αυτους μετανοησατε και βαπτισθητω εκαστος υμων επι τω ονοματι ιησου χριστου εις αφεσιν αμαρτιων και ληψεσθε την δωρεαν του αγιου πνευματος

Literally, and Peter said unto them reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

Looks like I have caught you in another lie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Acts 2:39 - Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults.
Acts 2:39 says no such thing.

Acts 2:39 for to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all those afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.'

This is starting to get really tiresome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Luke 1:59 - this proves that "teknon" includes infants. Here, John as a "teknon" (infant) was circumcised. See also Acts 21:21 which uses “teknon” for eight-day old babies. So baptism is for infants as well as adults.
And neither verse has anything whatsoever to do with baptism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
I hope that helps you understand what the Bible teaches Catholics about Baptism and Infant Baptism Brother Billy.
I already knew what Catholics teach about Baptism. This isn't the first time I've had this very same debate.

This was a long post. Here is the gist.
  • The so-called unbroken line of succession from Peter to Benedict is a myth.
  • Baptism is important, but it doesn't mean anything if you aren't saved. That's why calls to be baptized are accompanied by calls to repent and believe. It's also why there is no place in the Bible that states that people who repent and believe but are not baptized are condemned.
  • There is no intermediary between man and God (John 16:13, Gal 3:20). We don't need to go sit in a dark room and have a man in a dress tell us to chant a few spells to receive absolution for sins committed since we got saved, because saved Christians do not sin (1John 3:6-9). If you are continuing to sin after your baptism, then you have concrete proof that you are not saved.
I spent three hours responding to something that you copied and pasted from a Catholic propaganda website. I won't do it again. Next time you post a huge wall of text instead of just getting to the point, don't be surprised to find your post removed.

Pastor Billy-Reuben


Upon request I will cite scripture for all these facts in God's Holy Word.

✝ This is a Christian community and we worship GOD of the Holy bible, the only Living GOD. We worship Jesus Christ, Son of GOD and Savior. Anything else is absurd. ✝
Trump / Arpaio 2016 -- The Government We Deserve
#ChristianLivesMatter

Reply With Quote
(#92)
Old
ApoplecticFalseChristian's Avatar
ApoplecticFalseChristian ApoplecticFalseChristian is offline
Unrepentant Papist Dog
Forum Member
 
Posts: 40
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: The Place of Legends
ApoplecticFalseChristian is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.ApoplecticFalseChristian is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.
Default Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians - 11-12-2008, 05:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel Bathfire View Post
I’m not sure I agree with the word “priest” – disciple, apostle, follower, yes, but priest?
I am looking at the Bible Holistically from OT to NT. Clearly, the pattern of High Priest is seen from ancient times in the OT as it was prefigured with Abel and then later extended through the Levitical/Aaronic priestly orders. Of course in the NT Jesus becomes the new High Priest of the highest priestly order (Melchezedec - see scripture quote below). As a point of interest please know that all Catholic priests and bishops are ordained according to this rites for this same Melchizedek order. As such they are ordained to offer up the perfect and singularly pleasing sacrifice (Christ on the Cross) to God through the heavenly High Priest (Jesus) of this order who is forever before God. Catholic priests invoke the exact SAME perpetual sacrifice that stands forever pleasing before God's altar in heaven (note: its not sacrificing but rather bringing to mind the same one time sacrifice which is pleasing to God) through the mass and the transubstantiation of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ (just like in the upper room in the NT).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebrews 7:1-3 (KJV)
For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel Bathfire View Post
You have omitted the probity and authenticity of the keeper of the law.
God is not mocked. Probity and authenticity are manifest at the time of individual judgement or at such time as God elects to loose His wrath against the disunity of the 33,000 false Protestants sects. The Greater Good present in God's Divine Providence are Divine assurances to the elect that there is not one single thing evil men can do through the wild free election to sin that can diminish God's glory or end objective for Creation. I fully expect a chastisement and corrective action are eminent however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel Bathfire View Post
Now why would anyone disagree with Rome? the holders of the office of the vicar of Rome were, in their majority, not renowned for being good men.
Why would Satan disagree with God and with full knowledge of eternal consequence rebel? Pride is a mighty motivator for rebellion and this is why Protestants are in the morass of moral decay they find themselves in.
The Catholic Church has never claimed its ecclesial leaders are impeccable. Nay, the Bible tells us that All men are sinners. What we are assured of though through the promise to the office of Peter is that the gates of hell shall not prevail. God help those who are caught tupping the the goats when The Good Shepherd comes to correct His flock.

Your judgement of the Vicars of Christ is without historical basis and only God may judge. The Catholic Church freely admits that there have been some bad popes - but again Catholics are very human just as Peter was when he failed but repented. Jesus did not come to save the just who put their faith in the Law. No, He came to save sinner and will perfect His church. The heresies in fact are how Jesus culls the heard to remove the disloyal and the disobedient who only offer up lip service.

If you wish to judge others then you might like to judge the principal men of the reformation who were caught up in the most vile of vices - wanton fornicators and even adulterers are well documented. I can give references if desired.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel Bathfire View Post
But here we have men of equal rank appointing others to equal rank to go forth themselves as missionaries and selection is done by lots. Membership of the Apostles is in question here, not papal succession.
What is in question here is succession of ecclesial authority. No one may appoints himself a priest of God like protestant ministers do. That modern tradition was NEVER seen in the Church until after the 1520's and the Protestant Revolution. True apostolic succession is conveyed by divine calling AND by approval of a current apostolic bishop AND by physical laying on of hands with a priestly rite and apostolic blessing. This is a real conveyance of spiritual authority that extends all the way back to Peter and the authority to loose and bind.

The Catholic Church ecclesial structure is almost identical in structure to the original apostolic structure - that is it is very flat. All bishops are peers and from these one is chosen and appointed by other others to lead. This one calls himself "servant of the servants of God" and this is the one we in modern times call "papa" - or in English the "pope". Bishops report only to one authority - the Chair of Peter in Rome (the pope). This is exactly how it was in the early church. There is no concept of rank per say except that we make a spiritual distinction between bishops, priests and deacons. Only Bishops may select, sponsor and ordain another bishop (with papal approval) or a priest. A priest serves a bishop and is empowered to offer the mass and convert the bread and wine but can not ordain another priest. A deacon is an assistant to a priest and can read the liturgy and bless but not perform a mass and consecrate the bread and wine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel Bathfire View Post
You must be careful of using phrases like “authority” and “Bishopric” – the bishops of the catholic church are sinners who defy the word of God.
The bible tells us all men are sinners - including you. No man is always perfect and this is why Catholic bishops must go to confession just like you and I should when they make mistakes and sin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel Bathfire View Post
A cynic might add, as a way of raising money and having political influence.
Another cynic might say "halleluia brother pass the hat and tithe - your self appointed hired paster needs a tax free raise and a new car for his wife and new baby".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel Bathfire View Post
He never said that he would give anyone leaders, the apostles took it upon themselves to select from amongst their ranks in equality.
The bible tells us otherwise. Jesus gave Peter the keys of authority (Matt. 16:19), and appointed him as the chief steward over His earthly kingdom (cf. Isaiah. 22:19-22). Jesus also charged Peter to be the source of strength for the rest of the apostles (Luke 22:32) and the earthly shepherd of Jesus' flock (John 21:15-17). Jesus further gave Peter, and the apostles and elders in union with him, the power to bind and loose in heaven what they bound and loosed on earth. (Matt. 16:19; 18:18). This teaching authority did not die with Peter and the apostles, but was transferred to future bishops through the laying on of hands (e.g., Acts 1:20; 6:6; 13:3; 8:18; 9:17; 1 Tim. 4:14; 5:22; 2 Tim. 1:6).

Of course with the authority of the keys the apostles and their successors are free to set their own rules and guidelines on how to manage The Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel Bathfire View Post
Let us not forget that “to be ordained” merely means to be appointed.
Your understated words "merely" suggest you do not understand that these men have the profound power to loose or bind your sins and thereby directly effect your salvation. No other men on earth have this power. Thus ordination is a spiritual authority and special anointing that no one but Catholic and Orthodox clergy still legitimately hold (the Anglican's lost theirs when they rebelled, Protestantized the ordination rites and swore allegiance to their new King of their Church [King Henry VIII etc.] and let the original Catholic bishops all die off or executed them). Ordination starts with a direct calling by God to be a priest and then after many years of discernment and study and preparation (and prayer) an apostolic bishop formally conveys a spiritual authority through physical laying on of hands.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel Bathfire View Post
Fine $10 words but we are talking here about people appointing people of equal merit, we are not talking a behemoth of a business conglomerate with everything from peons to a CEO.
See prior comments.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel Bathfire View Post
I suppose I better what makes you think that Ananias was a bishop – he was a Disciple, this we know, but a bishop?
Yes, according to the 2,000 year old Catholic insights and traditions Ananias was one of the original 72 disciples and these had a level of spiritual authority of a bishop. He was the Bishop of Damascus.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel Bathfire View Post
I’m not going any further with this. You’re confabulating Bishops, Apostles, and Disciples and your unimpressive use of “ordination” has left me with the intense feeling that a Jesuit believes 7 impossible things before breakfast.
You apparently don't understand that all the apostles were in fact Bishops. This is the highest office of the Catholic Church. Even the pope is a Bishop - but the pope is a bishop with a special role to act a lead bishop for the entire Church and other bishops. The word disciples takes on different meaning as time progresses. The Apostles were all Disciples (as well as bishops). The 72 were all disciples - as well as had the ecclesial power of bishops.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel Bathfire View Post
Anyway, as you’re so keen on bishops, and as none of the vicar of Rome’s bishops are married, what do you make of this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel Bathfire View Post

1Tm:3:1: This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Tm:3:2: A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Tm:3:3: Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Tm:3:4: One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Tm:3:5: (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
1Tm:3:6: Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Tm:3:7: Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
None of this implies that marriage is a requirement for being a bishop. If that were the case John would not have been a bishop. The early church as it was forming and had to have leadership permitted married bishops and priests. This custom was later changed as the church developed and became well established. The Catholic church continues to emulate Christ's example of celibacy but actually does not have a hard and set rule prohibiting married priests.

What do you think of these scriptures?

Matt. 19:11-12 - Jesus says celibacy is a gift from God and whoever can bear it should bear it.

Matt. 19:29 - Jesus says that whoever gives up children for the sake of His name will receive a hundred times more and will inherit eternal life. Jesus praises celibacy when it is done for the sake of His kingdom.


Matt. 22:30 - Jesus explains that in heaven there are no marriages. To bring about Jesus' kingdom on earth, priests live the heavenly consecration to God by not taking a wife in marriage. This way, priests are able to focus exclusively on the spiritual family, and not have any additional pressures of the biological family (which is for the vocation of marriage).

1 Cor 7:1 – Paul teaches that it is well for a man not to touch a woman. This is the choice that the Catholic priests of the Roman rite freely make.

1 Cor. 7:7 - Paul also acknowledges that celibacy is a gift from God and wishes that all were celibate like he is.

1 Cor. 7:27 – Paul teaches men that they should not seek marriage. In Paul’s opinion, marriage introduces worldly temptations that can interfere with one’s relationship with God, specifically regarding those who will become full-time ministers in the Church.

1 Cor. 7:32-33, 38 - Paul recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church so that they are able to focus entirely upon God and building up His kingdom. He “who refrains from marriage will do better.”

1 Tim. 3:2 - Paul instructs that bishops must be married only once. Many Protestants use this verse to prove that the Church's celibacy law is in error. But they are mistaken because this verse refers to bishops that were widowers. Paul is instructing that these widowers could not remarry. The verse also refers to those bishops who were currently married. They also could not remarry (in the Catholic Church's Eastern rite, priests are allowed to marry; celibacy is only a disciplinary rule for the clergy of the Roman rite). Therefore, this text has nothing to do with imposing a marriage requirement on becoming a bishop.

1 Tim. 4:3 - in this verse, Paul refers to deceitful doctrines that forbid marriage. Many non-Catholics also use this verse to impugn the Church's practice of celibacy. This is entirely misguided because the Catholic Church (unlike many Protestant churches) exalts marriage to a sacrament. In fact, marriage is elevated to a sacrament, but consecrated virginity is not. The Church declares marriage sacred, covenantal and lifegiving. Paul is referring to doctrines that forbid marriage and other goods when done outside the teaching of Christ and for a lessor good. Celibacy is an act of giving up one good (marriage and children) for a greater good (complete spiritual union with God).

1 Tim. 5:9-12 - Paul recommends that older widows take a pledge of celibacy. This was the beginning of women religious orders.

2 Tim. 2:3-4 - Paul uses an analogy to describe the role of the celibate priesthood in the Church.

More here: Rev. 14:4, Isaiah 56:3-7, Jer. 16:1-4

Peace,ApostolicChristian


Matthew 16:18: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."
2 Thess 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
Reply With Quote
(#93)
Old
Pastor Billy-Reuben's Avatar
Pastor Billy-Reuben Pastor Billy-Reuben is offline
Senior Pastor
VP of Evangelical Outreach
On FIRE for Jesus
True Christian™

One Year/1000 posts Saved 1 Year Saved 5 Years 1st Year Bible College 2nd Year Bible College 3rd Year Bible College Saved 10 Years 4th Year Bible College 2008 Witch Hunt Award Long service medal, 1st class Christian Love True Christian™ The Al E. Pistle Award for Excellence in Rebuking Tithing Manager True Christian Provider™ award Ribfest '02 Real American™ Senior Pastor Heaven Bound TC Bravery Protected by JESUS Pastor of GOD Ex-Masturbator Super Soaker Baptism Award Ready for the Rapture True Christian Caucasian The Lord’s Witness Wound Jailed for JESUS Teabag Patriot Friend of Jesus Flat Earth Tell her once Persecuted Pro-Life Eats the Most Pork True Republican Guns, Guts and GLORY!

 
Posts: 6,016
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Libertydale, NC
Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!
Default Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians - 11-12-2008, 05:53 AM

I spent three hours writing a post that dismantled each of your half-truths and non-sequiturs, and put your out-of-context scripture back into context, and you completely ignored it.

Typical Jesuit debate tactics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
<snip regurgitated arguments that I have already addressed>
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
This teaching authority did not die with Peter and the apostles, but was transferred to future bishops through the laying on of hands (e.g., Acts 1:20; 6:6; 13:3; 8:18; 9:17; 1 Tim. 4:14; 5:22; 2 Tim. 1:6).
None of those verses say that. I won't believe anyone has apostolic authority until I see him drink a jug of bleach with no ill effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Your understated words "merely" suggest you do not understand that these men have the profound power to loose or bind your sins and thereby directly effect your salvation. No other men on earth have this power.

No man on Earth has the power to forgive sins, and no man has the power to effect anyone else's salvation. No man can even affect another's salvation, much less effect it. Only the Holy Spirit can do that.

What you are saying has no basis in scripture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
You apparently don't understand that all the apostles were in fact Bishops.
According to Catholic tradition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
If that were the case John would not have been a bishop.
It looks like you just proved he wasn't a bishop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
The Catholic church continues to emulate Christ's example of celibacy but actually does not have a hard and set rule prohibiting married priests.
Oh really?
Quote:
Pope Benedict XVI made it clear at a Vatican summit in 2006 that he believes in mandatory celibacy for priests as a nonnegotiable job requirement for showing devotion to God and the people they serve.


The Vatican requires celibacy of priests ordained under the Latin rite, but married men can become priests in the Eastern Orthodox rite.
Looks like I have caught you in yet another lie. You are close to being gonged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
What do you think of these scriptures?
Celibacy is a gift and is recommended, but is not a requirement. It has the full weight of good advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
1 Tim. 4:3 - in this verse, Paul refers to deceitful doctrines that forbid marriage. Many non-Catholics also use this verse to impugn the Church's practice of celibacy. This is entirely misguided ...
The Catholic church doctrine forbids priests to marry. Paul included the forbidding of marriage in a list of "doctrines of devils". Those are the plain facts and no amount of weaseling will change that.

Pastor Billy-Reuben


Upon request I will cite scripture for all these facts in God's Holy Word.

✝ This is a Christian community and we worship GOD of the Holy bible, the only Living GOD. We worship Jesus Christ, Son of GOD and Savior. Anything else is absurd. ✝
Trump / Arpaio 2016 -- The Government We Deserve
#ChristianLivesMatter

Reply With Quote
(#94)
Old
ApoplecticFalseChristian's Avatar
ApoplecticFalseChristian ApoplecticFalseChristian is offline
Unrepentant Papist Dog
Forum Member
 
Posts: 40
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: The Place of Legends
ApoplecticFalseChristian is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.ApoplecticFalseChristian is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.
Default Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians - 11-12-2008, 06:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
I spent three hours writing a post that dismantled each of your half-truths and non-sequiturs, and put your out-of-context scripture back into context, and you completely ignored it.

Typical Jesuit debate tactics.




None of those verses say that. I won't believe anyone has apostolic authority until I see him drink a jug of bleach with no ill effect.


No man on Earth has the power to forgive sins, and no man has the power to effect anyone else's salvation. No man can even affect another's salvation, much less effect it. Only the Holy Spirit can do that.

What you are saying has no basis in scripture.


According to Catholic tradition.


It looks like you just proved he wasn't a bishop.



Oh really?
Looks like I have caught you in yet another lie. You are close to being gonged.


Celibacy is a gift and is recommended, but is not a requirement. It has the full weight of good advice.


The Catholic church doctrine forbids priests to marry. Paul included the forbidding of marriage in a list of "doctrines of devils". Those are the plain facts and no amount of weaseling will change that.

Pastor Billy-Reuben
Brother Billy I was responding to Ezekial Bathfire's post - not yours. I have not even gotten to your comments yet. So unless you are running a dopple/puppet account for EzBath then please give me time to respond since its late here and I just got your response.

As a quick comment of clarification to your charge that I am wrong about the Catholic rule on ordaining only single priests you need to accept that you are not an expert on Catholicism and don't know that there are special exceptions for the case of married Episcopal priests who are converting to Catholicism in mass now that Anglicanism is deconstructing in the wake of Protestantism's general world wide meltdown that is accelerating now. Do not make the mistake of confusing tradition and ecclesial policy with official Dogma. There is nothing in the dogma that prevents us from choosing to permit the ordination of married priests. We just elect NOT to in most cases since we hold ourselves to a higher standard. You are right that Orthodox permit married priests so its possible for a true apostolic Christian who wants to serve as a married priest to do so through the Orthodox Church. We will likely permit the Orthodox to continue this tradition if we suceed in getting them reunited - at least for a while. But in general Christ's celibacy and virginity is our standard that we try to emulate.

Peace,
ApostolicChristian


Matthew 16:18: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."
2 Thess 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
Reply With Quote
(#95)
Old
Pastor Billy-Reuben's Avatar
Pastor Billy-Reuben Pastor Billy-Reuben is offline
Senior Pastor
VP of Evangelical Outreach
On FIRE for Jesus
True Christian™

One Year/1000 posts Saved 1 Year Saved 5 Years 1st Year Bible College 2nd Year Bible College 3rd Year Bible College Saved 10 Years 4th Year Bible College 2008 Witch Hunt Award Long service medal, 1st class Christian Love True Christian™ The Al E. Pistle Award for Excellence in Rebuking Tithing Manager True Christian Provider™ award Ribfest '02 Real American™ Senior Pastor Heaven Bound TC Bravery Protected by JESUS Pastor of GOD Ex-Masturbator Super Soaker Baptism Award Ready for the Rapture True Christian Caucasian The Lord’s Witness Wound Jailed for JESUS Teabag Patriot Friend of Jesus Flat Earth Tell her once Persecuted Pro-Life Eats the Most Pork True Republican Guns, Guts and GLORY!

 
Posts: 6,016
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Libertydale, NC
Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Pastor Billy-Reuben will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!
Default Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians - 11-12-2008, 01:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Brother Billy I was responding to Ezekial Bathfire's post - not yours.
Yes, I am aware that you hadn't responded to mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
As a quick comment of clarification to your charge that I am wrong about the Catholic rule on ordaining only single priests you need to accept that you are not an expert on Catholicism ... But in general Christ's celibacy and virginity is our standard that we try to emulate.
OK, so you are saying that the policy is that celibacy is a highly recommended but negotiable requirement for priesthood. That's interesting. YOU should have been pope, because the one you've got now thinks it's a mandatory nonnegotiable requirement. What an ignoramus! You must be more of an expert on Catholicism than HE is! Maybe from now on, if I want to know about Catholicism, I'll ask you instead of reading what the Pope has to say, because he obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.

Pastor Billy-Reuben


Upon request I will cite scripture for all these facts in God's Holy Word.

✝ This is a Christian community and we worship GOD of the Holy bible, the only Living GOD. We worship Jesus Christ, Son of GOD and Savior. Anything else is absurd. ✝
Trump / Arpaio 2016 -- The Government We Deserve
#ChristianLivesMatter

Reply With Quote
(#96)
Old
ApoplecticFalseChristian's Avatar
ApoplecticFalseChristian ApoplecticFalseChristian is offline
Unrepentant Papist Dog
Forum Member
 
Posts: 40
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: The Place of Legends
ApoplecticFalseChristian is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.ApoplecticFalseChristian is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.
Default Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians - 11-12-2008, 05:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
...Mark 10:18 doesn't mean you can't use the adjective "good" to describe a person.
I'll concede this but the man you referenced is full of hate and that is not an attribute of a saved Child of God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
...The Devil's ultimate goal it to make us believe lies, but that doesn't mean every single statement out of his mouth is false....
No major issue here - we know that Satan twisted scripture to tempt Jesus in much the same way that many well meaning but deceived Protestants do to justify their many false doctrines that were never before actually taught by an apostle but appear plausible since some out of context references can be found in the bible. This is EXACTLY why a true believer must have been TAUGHT by an apostolic teaching authority to know what a real apostle actually taught. Too many Protestants are cherry picking their owe favorite verses out of scripture to fabricate a pretty bead of pearls to justify them sinning in the false assurances that they are saved. I know you do not believe that one is free to sin like some of these other denominations do - so that is good and we are in agreement here at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
Right, and the Pope today is the head of the pagan priesthood.
The Catholic Church is a royal priesthood a people set apart as God's very own nation. What other religion on the planet has its own world recognized nation except for the Catholic Church?

1 Peter 2:9-10 (KJV) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Deut 14:2
2For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
A collection of inspired works is exactly what the Bible is.
We agree. But who told you what was inspired? The answer is The Catholic Church did since you accepted our NT cannon when the KJV was first printed some 1500 years distant to when the Catholic Church was first founded at Calvary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
Wrong again. The Muratorian Canon was written in 170 AD.
Ahem, Brother Billy, you do know that the Muratorian Canon contained spurious works do you not (e.g. Apocalypse of Peter )? It also contains the book of Wisdom and everyone knows Baptists have rejected wisdom since its too Catholic sounding. Let me also point out that even the Muratorian Canon contains explicit references to "THE CATHOLIC CHURCH" and you admit you are not Catholic so why would you reference a Catholic soruce that Pope Damasus used as a starting point to give you your cannon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by from the Muratorian Fragment
...
That there is one church defused throughout the whole earth is shown. by this seven fold writing and John also in the Apocalypse. Even though he writes the seven churches, he speaks to all. But he wrote out of affection and love one to Philemon, one to Titus, two to Timothy and these are held sacred in the honorable esteem of the church catholic, in the regulation of Ecclesiastical discipline...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
You are already believing a strange man with no provable apostolic succession or teaching authority who never knew Christ.

Those claims are Catholic legends and traditions, not documented history. Anyone can make claims.
We have 2,000 years of continuous presence of popes and all the archaeological artifacts of the early church in our museums - so how can make this claim with any credibility? Do you have proof that you are the great great grandson of your predecessors? A pope and his bishops have been in continuous rein from the very beginning. What successor of an apostle ordained you brother? We have written records of all our bishop's apostolic successor that go back as far as written records were maintained and not destroyed by enemies of the Church and by decay of time but the greater proof is in the fact that the original Papal church Basilica of St. John Lateran (the Lateran Palace presided over by Pope Sylvester I in 324) and the Vatican and Peter's bones and coffin are still present in Rome to this day.

St. Thomas was a doubter too - but his doubt did not change fact. Have you ever been to Rome brother?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
The problem with Catholicism is that you think a person can't know if he's saved. You want to keep people in a perpetual state of fear and insecurity. The Bible tells us how to be assured of our salvation. We can know if we are saved, and the Bible tells us how.
Not really true brother Billy. No one wants fear and anxiety over such things as salvation - certainly not me. But there are no guarantees in life - only choices and how we deal our bad ones. Catholics believe that God gives us "signal graces" over our lives that give us greater and greater confidence in our own salvation. We develop an inner peace and find ourselves just wanting to "do good things" for God. We do not believe in works salvation but can see by our own actions that we are serving God when we see the changes in our lives - loving more, being more charitable, taking insults from our enemies without hating them etc. A lot of what you are saying here came out of some myths of the Reformation. Luther in particular was believed to be mentally unstable and had a scrupulous mind that made him seek a a way to quiet his conscience since he kept sinning gravely (drinking heavily, and fornicating etc.). So Luther invented an "easy believism" where men are free to 'sin and sin boldly since God's grace is so great' that he seemed to suggest we should put our faith to the test by sinning!!! Absurd of course and evil. So of course Catholics who were very frank about teaching one can not sin and MUST not sin were slandered for holding to this truth. Fortunately Catholics also believe that even if we sin after dedicating ourselves to God that He will still forgive us 70 times 7 times if we truly make every effort to repent and pray and go to sacramental confession.

This reply is getting long Brother Billy. I need to do something right now and will come back. So Let me close here momentarily and restart a new post a bit later for the balance of what I have not yet addressed.

God Bless,
ApostolicChristian


Matthew 16:18: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."
2 Thess 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
Reply With Quote
(#97)
Old
ApoplecticFalseChristian's Avatar
ApoplecticFalseChristian ApoplecticFalseChristian is offline
Unrepentant Papist Dog
Forum Member
 
Posts: 40
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: The Place of Legends
ApoplecticFalseChristian is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.ApoplecticFalseChristian is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.
Default Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians - 11-12-2008, 06:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
Then it's a good thing that saved Christians don't sin. We stop sinning once we get saved. If you think you're saved, but you are running around sinning, guess what -- you ain't.

If you are saved, you don't sin. If you sin, you aren't saved.

Born again Christians CANNOT sin. HALLELUJAH! Thank you Jesus! The LORD is so good!
That is the standard of course – but we all know that the apostles all sinned and that in God’s profound holiness and purity that we offend Him at even the slightest sin of omission or transient though of sexual desire etc. God knows we are human and are at constant spiritual warfare with our own fallen natures. This is why Jesus gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins in two ways: one through baptism for initial believers (that wipes out every personal sin and what we call Original sin inherited from Adam). The other way is through sacramental confession for very grave sins. The good news is that minor sins (what we call venial) like accidentally using a dirt word under our breath if we hit our hand with a hammer etc. can be forgiven instantly by simple prayer (ref. The Lord’s Prayer where we say daily ‘forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us’).

Accepting Christ as our savior and dedicating our lives to Him does not make us automatically immune to sin. Some Protestants believe in a new doctrine of man called “Once Saved Always Saved” (OSAS). The Bible has over 200 passages that reject this wrong but comforting idea since a person is not saved until God judges them saved.

Brother Billy if you believe that a person who dedicates himself to Jesus, believes in Jesus and is baptized but later commits a sin is not saved you are simply wrong. It’s not that cut and dry. God is merciful to those who love greatly, or to those who show mercy and compassion to others and for those who repent and confess their sins before the Church (it used to be public but now its in front of the Church representative [priest] in privacy). So it first of all depends on the severity of the person’s sin. If it was a grave sin (fornication, adultery, preaching a different non-apostolic gospel etc.) that was consciously committed with foreknowledge then that person is no longer in God’s grace and is at risk of going to hell if they die unrepentant. But if the sin(s) is a minor venial sin (e.g. not returning that extra quarter the cashier accidentally over paid you in change) you are not going to go to hell for this (simply pray to God that you are sorry and try to pay it back later). But in the first case of grave sin one can return to God’s grace since God is a forgiving God to those who approach Him in humility and with a contrite heart. So it all depends on if that grave sinner later realizes their mistake and has a change of heart, repents and seeks sacramental forgiveness for that sin. Fortunately Jesus gave His Church the apostolic authority of loosing and binding just these kinds of sins through the Catholic sacrament of confession. When absolved of the sin and the repentant sinner performs penance and is sincere he regains his grace with God and can be assured of His salvation again and continue in his walk with The Lord.

I can give you dozens of scripture verses to back all this up if you like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
I said there is no human intermediary between God and man. That is scripture (John 16:13, Gal 3:20). I never called for an abolition of spiritual leaders and secular government.
Of course I didn’t think you would put yourself out of salaried job.
One may always pray to God and express sorrow for their sins. But you were the one who wanted guarantees of salvation just a little bit earlier. God may elect to forgive a person that He judges is sincere in their repentance but this is not the normal way that Jesus wanted it for the very reason that no one knows if God accepted those prayers. This is exactly why Jesus gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins so a person can be 100% sure that if they are sincere in their repentance they are in fact forgiven and can get on with their lives without being scrupulous or fearful of His wrath. I have already given you the scriptures verses for this. You might also want to recollect “The Lord’s Prayer” in the bible that tells us to pray each day for our daily bread and to forgive others so we may be forgiven.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
None of those are relevant. The Bible tells us to rightly divide the Word of Truth, and that's exactly what you aren't doing. The verses in Acts about how the apostles ordained other apostles is history, not relevant today. The apostles with their signs and wonders were for the unbelieving first century Jews. The only "apostles" we have today are the ones described in 2 Cor 11. Of course, if your priest DOES have apostolic authority, then he should be able to be instantly fluent in any language (Mark 16:17), or he should be able to drink a bottle of bleach with no ill effect (Mark 16:18).
And so I have rightly divided the Word. You just don’t want to accept the truth as it was actually taught by the apostles. This is why Catholics do not need to even worry about “dividing the word” since we have the original teaching authority and traditions of the apostles that tell us exactly what was taught. You can dismiss what I am saying around your own private interpretation and divisions just as can the pastors of the 33,000 other non-Catholic denominations. What makes your division any better than these others Brother? What is your personal pedigree? Who taught you how to divide God’s word? The apostles taught the Catholic bishops and all their successors.

And your acid test of apostolic authority is just silly and not biblical Brother Billy. Would you be willing to take your own test? I bet not. We discern and test by one’s fruits. Catholics have been in existence from the very beginning – 2000 years. We have simply outlived all our detractors, kings and nations. There is a reason for this – we are the TrueChurch.


Again, this is running long so let me close here and readdress more of what you have said in another post a bit later.

God Bless,
ApostolicChristian


Matthew 16:18: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."
2 Thess 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
Reply With Quote
(#98)
Old
ApoplecticFalseChristian's Avatar
ApoplecticFalseChristian ApoplecticFalseChristian is offline
Unrepentant Papist Dog
Forum Member
 
Posts: 40
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: The Place of Legends
ApoplecticFalseChristian is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.ApoplecticFalseChristian is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.
Default Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians - 11-12-2008, 08:17 PM

Please bear with me - its taking me time to get to all your questions and comments.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
You have erected a strawman, which you have soundly trounced. Congratulations. No one claimed that baptism is meaningless symbolism. You seem to be claiming that baptism in and of itself is the way to salvation. Baptism is an act of obedience, distinct from salvation. Do you think that someone who repents and believes, but dies before being baptized, goes to Hell? Do you think that someone who accepts baptism, but does not repent and does not believe goes to Heaven?
No, it was not an intentional strawman brother Billy and the bible makes the case that baptism is the normal way that a Christian is initiated into the faith. But it is just the start for a Christian who wants to walk all the way with The Lord up the hill of Calvary, enter through the narrow gate of the cross where the blood of the lamb is sprinkled over the door lentil and step into the glory of the promised land.

Honestly, I did not know your true belief in the area of baptism and had to make some assumptions since so many non-Catholics think that Baptism is a mere symbol. I am actually quite relieved to discover that you do not believe this since Baptism is profoundly powerful. When Jesus entered the waters for His own baptism His divinity forever all sanctified water with the divine power to forgive sins and to make it possible for a baptized Christian to immediately receive the Holy Spirit when the customary rite is performed with the proper intention and Trinitarian formula (In the name of God, Son and Holy Spirit).

Let me clarify that Baptism is how we formally get our initial seed of Faith (The Living Word) through The Church implanted into our heart. It matters not if we walk to the waters on our own or someone carries us there as a child. Baptism is what makes it normatively possible for any of us to be saved since in that moment we are born into a new humanity that is formed of new parents. We literally get a new humanity formed on the prototype of Jesus as the new Adam (and Mary as the new Eve). That's pretty exciting since through Jesus we have the spiritual DNA if you will to share in a divine-human nature and are elevated above our original humanity. This is pretty exciting since God wants us to love Him at a higher level than a human normally can. We literally step out of the fallen and limited nature of Adam and Eve to open ourselves to a new life where God can grow us into new beings that have a superior divine-human nature (always subordinate to Jesus) rather than a fallen human nature subordinate to Satan (subject to death). This is why Catholics have a traditional saying "O happy fault that merited such and so great a Redeemer." For God so loves us that to save us He will not only restore us to our pre-fallen nature which was originally perfect in Adam but will ELEVATE us to a higher nature than even Adam to make it possible for us to Love God as only Christ can. This is the powerful message that most non-Catholics never hear - we are to become literal children of God through Christ and have a share in a divine nature!! OMG - people just have no idea what God has in store for us:

1 Cor 2:9 (KJV) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

So after baptism grace immediately starts to take root in us and through our conforming our wills to God’s we cooperate with that grace over our entire lives to let God transform us into new children of light. We hope that God takes us (as one takes a ripe fruit from the tree) later in life at our peek level of grace in due season. In Baptism Christ literally takes residence within us and we He becomes part of us while letting us also retain our own unique identity - God does not want robots and will call us each by individual name.

So to answer your question – yes baptism is a normal pre-requisite that leads to salvation. But there are some exceptions. A person can receive a "baptism by desire" (as did the Good Thief through empathetic and solidarity of suffrage) as well as a "baptism by blood" (Martyerdom - dieing to protect the faith or dieing while helping a Christian under persecution etc.). Thus someone in a remote part of the world who did not have an opportunity for a water baptism but through direct revelation from God as inspired perhaps by the manifest presence of seeing God’s glory in nature could be baptized by his natural desire to love God the Creator of all. God is free to save who He will independent of the sacraments since He is sovereign. But the normative way that gives us certain knowledge that we are on the right path to salvation is through water baptism.

To answer more of your questions let me say this:
The person who is baptized but refuses to cooperate with that baptismal grace and consciously continues to sin gravely is going to land in hell if they do not repent before death. That is actually the one unforgivable sin - to die impenitent against all pleadings of the Holy Spirit to repent. This is the unforgivable blasphemy against the Holy Spirit - hell is automatic and immutable. Fortunately, God calls all men to salvation and constantly floods us with His grace to come seek Him out and repent. The hardened sinner and the person who does not love or the person who publicly by word or deed rejects God or Christ is toast unless she repents – no matter if baptized or not.

A person who desires Christ and dedicates their life to Christ but does not know that he must be baptized is probably going to receive a “baptism by desire” spiritually by Jesus as High Priest on their death bed. God does not want to condemn anyone – God is a lover and wants all His children in His eternal presence. We trust to God’s Mercy such people (especially infants dieing before birth or shortly thereafter) who through lack of proper instruction and knowledge and through no fault of their own simply do not know better. We Catholics pray that God will save such people and trust that He does - but of course we do not know for certain. But in this day and age where there is plenty of information available there are few who will not want to naturally be baptized if they call themselves Christian since they will discover this from the community of Christian believers and widely available information. God draws people to the truth - none that are His will be lost.

I still have more of your original comments to respond to and will do so as I get more time.

God Bless,
ApostolicChristian


Matthew 16:18: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."
2 Thess 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
Reply With Quote
(#99)
Old
Ahimaaz Smith's Avatar
Ahimaaz Smith Ahimaaz Smith is offline
True Christian™
True Christian™

True Republican

 
Posts: 2,546
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pastor Deacon Fred Hall, Landover Christian University School of Law, Freehold, Iowa, God's Country
Ahimaaz Smith has discarded the shackles of sin and is ready to participate in the Glorious RaptureAhimaaz Smith has discarded the shackles of sin and is ready to participate in the Glorious RaptureAhimaaz Smith has discarded the shackles of sin and is ready to participate in the Glorious RaptureAhimaaz Smith has discarded the shackles of sin and is ready to participate in the Glorious RaptureAhimaaz Smith has discarded the shackles of sin and is ready to participate in the Glorious RaptureAhimaaz Smith has discarded the shackles of sin and is ready to participate in the Glorious RaptureAhimaaz Smith has discarded the shackles of sin and is ready to participate in the Glorious RaptureAhimaaz Smith has discarded the shackles of sin and is ready to participate in the Glorious RaptureAhimaaz Smith has discarded the shackles of sin and is ready to participate in the Glorious RaptureAhimaaz Smith has discarded the shackles of sin and is ready to participate in the Glorious RaptureAhimaaz Smith has discarded the shackles of sin and is ready to participate in the Glorious Rapture
Default Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians - 11-12-2008, 09:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
Please reconsider the biblical evidence that God has always worked through priests and His specially chosen authorities.
Apostolic, every argument you raise seems to be based on a misunderstanding of the words of the Bible. You confuse ordination with ascension to the priesthood, which seems strange for an apologist of a church that ordains many office holders who are not priests. You confuse minister and preacher with office holder, which is nonsensical for someone defending a church that has lay preachers. You confuse apostle and priest. You have a definition of Bishop that defies imagination.


If the Bible says that certain Christian men are to be appointed priests over other Christians, please, show us where. But spare us these analogies and indirect arguments that are—without exception—based on interpreting some other word for “priest.”

The Catholic Lie: Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ's own authority. . . a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his "bishopric") is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, "I'll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own."

The Word of God: A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 1 Timothy 3:2

The Truth Explained: God never said that anything at all in Acts 1, it is a historical chapter, not a Godly commandment (if it is a Godly commandment, then why don’t you Catholics chose your Bishops by lot, as the Apostles chose Judas’s successor in Acts 1:26?). Whether the continuation of a Bishopric until the return of Christ is mandated by God or not, the office of Bishop cannot be filled by a celibate man, so in no way can Acts 1 relate to the priesthood. You show me a Catholic “bishop” who was selected as such because he has a wife, and I’ll concede your arguments right now.

The Catholic Lie: Acts 1:22 - literally, "one must be ordained" to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ's authority.

The Word of God: Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not; a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. 1 Timothy 2:7

The Truth Explained: Ordained means required or ordered to act in a certain way. It does not mean dedicated to the priesthood, which is only one sense of the word ordained. Since you Catholics have lay preachers, and non-priestly officers whom you ordain (that is the Catholic term for it), I’d think you would be able to spot the flaw in your logic, here. Ordination is not the same thing as becoming a priest, and being a priest is not required to be a preacher.

The Catholic Lie: Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.

The Word of God:And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch: whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them. Acts 6:5-6

The Truth Explained: Acts 6:6 does not say that ordination requires the laying on of hands. It doesn’t mention ordination at all. Nor does it mention apostolic authority—Acts 6:6 tells us that the apostles laid their hands on the Christians selected to feed the neglected widows. Do you claim that only priests can feed widows?

The Catholic Lie: Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.

The Word of God: And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. Acts 9:17-19

The Truth Explained: Acts 9 does not say that Paul’s ministry required a laying on of hands, that was simply the means that the Lord chose in that instance to cure Paul’s blindness and bring the Holy Spirit upon him. Nowhere does the Bible say that Ananias was a bishop. It says only that Ananias was a disciple.

The Catholic Lie: Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.

The Word of God: Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. Acts 13:1-3

The Truth Explained: Barnabas and Saul were given their authority directly by the Holy Ghost; no bishop (and certainly no Catholic “bishop”) was involved. Anyway, what authority could Simeon and Lucius and Manaen and Herod have conferred upon Barnabas and Saul? All of them were “prophets and teachers.” The dedication of a Christian to a ministry does not require the laying on of hands, it requires the Spirit of the Lord. The laying on of hands conveys a blessing, a prayer for the protection of God to be given to the person upon whom the hands are laid, and nothing more.

I’ll try to address your other arguments later, but your style is tedious, using loads of bad analogies in place of pointing to a simple, unambiguous statement in the Bible supporting your position--and there are other sinners out there to whom I must preach the Word, too. Unlike you, some of them are open to reading the Bible the way it is written rather than the way some nancy-boy “priest” obfuscated it in “catechism.” In the future, you might try making your arguments a bit shorter if you want us to respond. As Brother V is fond of saying, ten tons of bullshit doesn’t smell any better than one ton.



Pour out thy fury upon the heathen that know thee not, and upon the families that call not on thy name.... Jeremiah 10:25
Reply With Quote
(#100)
Old
Ezekiel Bathfire's Avatar
Ezekiel Bathfire Ezekiel Bathfire is offline
Pastor for Diversity and Tolerance
Christ's Rottweiler
 

One Year/1000 posts Saved 1 Year 1st Year Bible College 2nd Year Bible College 3rd Year Bible College 4th Year Bible College True Christian™ The Al E. Pistle Award for Excellence in Rebuking Christian Love Real American™ Tithing Manager Heaven Bound Protected by JESUS True Scientist™ Pastor of GOD Ex-Masturbator Super Soaker Baptism Award Ready for the Rapture True Christian Caucasian Senior Pastor Teabag Patriot TC Bravery Friend of Jesus Flat Earth Tell her once Persecuted Porn Resistant The Hatchet Child Rearing Award Ex-Brit Eats the Most Pork True Republican Ex-eurotrash Batman Shooting Survivor Loves a GODLY Chic-Fil-A Guns, Guts and GLORY! Proud Niglet Sponsorer Kirk Cameron Fan Club Nuts for JESUS! Prayer Warrior Touched by Jesus Stamp of Approval Rick Perry's Niggerhead Ranch Mower Donald Trump 2016! Anti-sodomy Pastor Ezekiel Aardvark Bathfire Crown of Life Alternative Facts Probing for Jesus 20,000 posts Saved 10 Years Proud TP Rebuker for Christ Anti-Biden

 
Posts: 22,727
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Toiling selflessly towards Salvation
Ezekiel Bathfire will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Ezekiel Bathfire will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Ezekiel Bathfire will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Ezekiel Bathfire will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Ezekiel Bathfire will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Ezekiel Bathfire will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Ezekiel Bathfire will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Ezekiel Bathfire will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Ezekiel Bathfire will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Ezekiel Bathfire will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Ezekiel Bathfire will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!
Default Re: Why Roman Catholic Papists Are NOT Christians - 11-12-2008, 09:14 PM

You have attracted the attention of Pastor Billy-Reuben and I and as such, I appreciate that there is much work in it for you; I’m sure the good Pastor will not mind if I include him in my thanks for sharing with us your views, however misguided they may be.

To increase your work, allow me an ‘aside’:

A friend of mine entered the viva voce to present his dissertation for his Doctorate, an examining professor said to him, “Ah, Mr Berg, could you sum up your thesis in a paragraph please?”

Mr Berg, obtained his Doctorate from Oxford University (UK). Later he said to me, “I think this must always be possible to achieve, otherwise there is the possibility of too many variables entering and forming an uncertain conclusion.”I will return to my aside later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostolicFalseChristian View Post
I am looking at the Bible Holistically from OT to NT. Clearly, the pattern of High Priest is seen from ancient times in the OT as it was prefigured with Abel and then later extended through the Levitical/Aaronic priestly orders. Of course in the NT Jesus becomes the new High Priest of the highest priestly order (Melchezedec - see scripture quote below). As a point of interest please know that all Catholic priests and bishops are ordained according to this rites for this same Melchizedek order.
We have a thread going on the Order of Melchizedek (although the original correspondent is confused to say the least.) In that thread I remarked that little is known of the remarkable Melchizedek. Thus, to claim such succession when the rites were never written in The Bible, is quite remarkable!
Quote:
[…]the transubstantiation of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ (just like in the upper room in the NT)
I think there are very few catholics, and certainly none that I have ever met, who honestly believe that the bread turns to flesh and the wine to blood. Elsewhere on these boards, I have discussed the matter and no intelligent person could accept Christ’s words as other than requesting remembrance. I realize that if you are catholic you are required to accept this privately and I do not expect that you will say otherwise, even under your nomme de guerre.
Quote:
God is not mocked. Probity and authenticity are manifest at the time of individual judgement or at such time as God elects to loose His wrath against the disunity of the 33,000 false Protestants sects.
I was referring to the holders of the self-created post of the vicar of rome… Weren’t the Borgias wonderful?
Quote:
The Catholic Church has never claimed its ecclesial leaders are impeccable.
We have agreement, except for the infallibility bit […]
Quote:
Your judgement of the Vicars of Christ is without historical basis and only God may judge.
Wrong on both counts – history is against you and we are required to judge: Proverbs 31:9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. Take your choice.
Quote:
The Catholic Church freely admits
Kate, I believe thou doest protest too much…
Quote:
If you wish to judge others then you might like to judge the principal men of the reformation who were caught up in the most vile of vices
Hmmm… historically, Baptists were outside that one. In any case, does it help a sinner to say that others have sinned also? I think not.

Quote:
What is in question here is succession of ecclesial authority. No one may appoints himself a priest of God like protestant ministers do.
That is because Baptist pastors are just that – pastors. They know their flock and they are equal before God. It is merely that pastors are people who have followed the apostolic tradition of going out into the world and spreading the Word.
Quote:
by approval of a current apostolic bishop
so you admit that the catholic church abandoned the original democracy and instituted a “who best toes the party line” approach – very Stalinist!
Quote:
AND by physical laying on of hands with a priestly rite and apostolic blessing.
No one knows what that rite was! And that’s another thing. Note what the bible says about the laying on of hands – it must have taken all of 3 minutes now look at the unholy fuss the catholic church makes of this – a mockery if ever I saw one!
Quote:
This is a real conveyance of spiritual authority
No, it is some 10th century idiot’s idea of what might impress the peasants – shame on you and your church!
Quote:
The Catholic Church ecclesial structure is almost identical in structure
Whoa! Hold it rght there! At least you are honest enough to use the word “almost.” You now see the broad path down which Satan leads you!.
Quote:
There is no concept of rank per say except that
there now follows a large list of exceptions which indicates to the intelligent person that there is, in fact, a huge concept of rank.
Quote:
Another cynic might say "halleluia brother pass the hat and tithe - your self appointed hired paster needs a tax free raise and a new car for his wife and new baby".
Ho, ho! Look on the internet for the value of the catholic church…
Quote:
The bible tells us otherwise. Jesus gave Peter the keys of authority (Matt. 16:19),
prima inter pares
Quote:
Of course with the authority of the keys the apostles and their successors are free to set their own rules and guidelines on how to manage The Church.
… I’m not going to comment on this it is catching fish in a barrel.
Quote:
Ordination starts with a direct calling by God to be a priest and then after many years of discernment and study and preparation (and prayer)
or as we say, “indoctrination”
Quote:
Yes, according to the 2,000 year old Catholic insights and traditions
What you mean here is, there’s no proof whatsoever but it is convenient to accept this
Quote:
Ananias was one of the original 72 disciples and these had a level of spiritual authority of a bishop. He was the Bishop of Damascus.
Interestingly, Mark made Ananias bishop way after his appointment as a Disciple.
Quote:
None of this implies that marriage is a requirement for being a bishop. What do you think of these scriptures?
"What I think" is where I come to my earlier “aside” You use the following to support the rule that Catholic bishops should not be married: Matt. 19:11-12 - Matt. 19:29 - Matt. 22:30 - 1 Cor 7:1 – 1 Cor. 7:7 - 1 Cor. 7:27 – 1 Cor. 7:32-33, 38 - 1 Tim. 3:2 - 1 Tim. 4:3 - 1 Tim. 5:9-12 - 2 Tim. 2:3-4 - Rev. 14:4, Isaiah 56:3-7, Jer. 16:1-4.

I use the clearest guidance possible 1Tm:3:1-5. Ihave done mine in a paragraph, yours requires acres of print and many opinions.


Admit it, the Catholic church has it wrong here. Earlier there was no requirement for any clergy to be celibate, I believe it was around the 11th century that the church was having trouble with inheritance of its lands, it therefore decided that clergy should be celibate and that there livings revert to the church.

You cannot serve God and Mammon – why was this decision made and whom does the catholic church worship?

Edit: I see Brother Ahimaaz has joined us. Brother Ahimaaz has an excellent mind; you will enjoy his comments.





“We must reassert that the essence of Christianity is the love of obedience to God’s Laws and that how that complete obedience is used or implemented does not concern us.”

Author of such illuminating essays as,
Map of the Known World; Periodic Table of Elements; The History of Linguistics; The Errors of Wicca; Dolphins and Evolution; The History of Landover (The Apology); Landover and the Civil War; 2000 Racial Slurs.

Last edited by Ezekiel Bathfire; 11-12-2008 at 09:18 PM. Reason: Apology for causing work...
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
bible study, catholics are not christians, history, idolatry, jesus, mary worshipers, paganism

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Find Additional Forums Here



Powered by Jesus - vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skin developed by: vBStyles.com
Content Landover Baptist Forums © 1620, 2022 all rights reserved