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Creation Science The origins of life and the earth from a creationist (Biblical) perspective.

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Default Re: Science and Religion - 06-04-2009, 08:47 PM

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Examine, and comment on, the relationship between Religion and Science, refering to Evolution and Creationism
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The relationship between Science and Religion is one of Conflict, caused, in part, by the blurring of the borders which define the two factions. First then, a definition; Science is mutable- it changes easilly to interpret new evidence. A Scientific theory is accpeted, not beleived. Religion is absolute- it doesn't change in order to interpret new evidence. A religious theory is beleived, indeed, it takes a 'leap of faith' in order to beleive it.

Swinburne once postulated his 'principle of credulity and testimony', in which he posited that we should accept what people tell us as the truth is we have no evidence to the contrary. In actuality, this theory doesnt work- whatever you accept or beleive, humans have only got thus far by being cynical; questioning things constantly. If you beleive that a particular berry won't kill you, it won't prevent it from doing so, and so in actuality swinburne should have prehaps postulated a principle of 'Incredulity and Tesitmony'- that we only accept what someone tells us as the truth if there is evidence which supports it. By this principle, Science should have more acceptors than Religion has beleivers- while Science can offer up evidence for it's claims, Religion is based around pure beleif, therefore meaning that many people are much more likely to be 'incredulous' of religious theories, and find Scintific ones credible.

The religious think-tank theos recently commissioned a study, which found that, whilst 25% of Britons fully accepted the theory of evoluton, a staggering 50% of Brits were either opposed to or 'confused' by the theory. Why, if our afformentioned principle suggests that Scientific ones are the most credible ones, do such a seemingly anomolous number of people refute the claims of one of it's major theories in favour of relgious answers? The answer lies in the blurring of the borders between Science and Relgion, and this too is where the conflict lies.

Creation Science is a major movement across the western world. Whilst technically a religion- it is absolute, not changing it's views because of evidence- this has not stopped it from attracting many powerfull people to its psuedo-scientific theories, amogst them the former head of NASA, dubbed 'father of the space age', and Adnan Oktar, Turkish Oil Billionaire and writer (and publisher and funder) of the lavish Atlas of Creation, a vastly expensive peice of creationist proppaganda which was delivered free to all schools in the UK. Contrasting to this, Evolutionaries activley protest against the formation of an Evoltuion Religion- as Andrew Marr, staunch evolutionist and bbc political correspondent, said 'we mustn't let [darwin's theory] Crust into Creed, Harden to Dogma'. It is Creationism's encroahment onto scientific ground, the styling of it;s religion into a psuedo-science, complete with museums and 'scientific' refernce books, and it is Evolution's decision to not form a religion, which has made half of Brits 'confused' over the issue of how we came into existence, and which fuels the conflict which defines the two theories.

Scientific debate is a major part of the scientific process, and is welcomed by the scietific communtiy in order to prove new ideas and to disprove old ones. Creation Science is not dissmissed by the scietific community because it challenges their views, it is dismissed because it is 'bad' science.

If, as previosuly mentioned, a major human attribute is cynicism, then we can assume that scientists are the most cynical of us all- constatnly looking for holes in their own theories in order to make it water-tight. It is fair to say, therefore, that all 'good' scientists woud only be attracted to theories which take this cynical aproach too; theories which are built up gradually as new evidence is found, rather than those which make giant, unsupported, leaps of faith. Taking this into account, it is safe to say that any scientists attracted to the religious theories of Creation Science are 'bad' scientists, and the psuedo-scientific evidence which they present as proof for their beleifs can result in some very 'bad science, and it is this which riles the Scientific community into the aggesive stance which it takes against religion. For Example, the creation science magasine, 'Good News magasine', recently published an article which claimed that, if we truely had evolved, we would divide, like amoebas. Despite presenting this as scientific fact, this article made no mention of the fact that amoebas are single celled organisms, whilst we are made up of bllions of cells, and so division would not be a valid process for us to undergo. It also made no reference to the obvious fact that, if we did divide like amoebas, which, if we did, the magasine says would prove that we had evolved, there would be no variation to cause evolution in the first place! In the same article, the writer presented the extended time which humans have to care for their young for as evidece that we had not evolved, since caring for them for so long weakened us. Again, no mention was made to the correlation of the survival rate of young animals and the time they spend in their parents care, nor did it make mention of the fact that, since we share the concept of caring for our young for many years with chimpanzees and many other simians, this parent/progeny bond proves our relation to these creatures, thereby proving evolution. The Genesis Expo museum in portsmouth, is the the only Creation Science museum in the U.K, and its exhibits include a gravestone marked 'The Theory of Evolution, R.I.P', and a sign which reads 'The existence of a primordeal soup would be a nightmare for the canned soup industy!'.

The views presented above, however, are all extremist points of view, and it is also true that, whilst militant evolutionaries and militant creationists do exist, there are many shades of grey between the two- religous scientists and liberal christians use the bible quote from luke's gospel 'To God, Nothing is Impossibe' to validate their beleif that God used the process of evolution to form the earths creatures, whilst even the most evangelical christians accept that micro-evolution- the creation of breeds within a species, is a valid proccess.

Whilst there are shades of grey within the beleivers and acceptors of both Creation and Evolution, so too are there shades of grey between the theories themselves. Whilst the religious outcry and scientific turmoil which darwins theory of evolution caused has been well documented, 50 years before darwin published 'On the Origin of Species', Lamarck published an alternate theory of evolution which he called 'aquired charateristics'. The traditional example of this is the girraffe's neck- a girraffe streches it's neck reaching for the higher branches, and passes this on to it's young. Although this theory was dismissed by the scientific community untill as recently as Sir David Attenborough's program early this year, to mark the 150th anniversary of the Origin of Species, recent experements have shown that the benfits of improving of certian traits, such as memory, are passed on to the next generaltion, and Lamarck's theory was publised into little, or no outcry, and rightly so. Lamarck's 'aqquired characteristics' has a very christian view to it, something almost irenean- the 2nd Century philosopher Ireneaus prosulated a theodicy to solve the problem of evil and suffering for Christians, by suggesting that this world was a 'vale of soulmaking'. Lamarck's theory mirrors this perfectly- the higher branches as a manifestation of the evil which exists in the world, and the streching of the neck as a manifestation of the 'soul making' that this evil inspires. Ireneaus also found evidence for his theodicy in Genesis- 'Let me make man in my own image, AFTER my own likeness', suggesting that the word 'after' implies that God did not make the world perfect, that we have to become perfect, to grow into God's image, which Lamarckian Evolution depitcts flaultlessly.

More recently than Ireneaus, or even Lamarck, was David Owen Wilison, who published a book called 'Darwin's cathedral', in which he showed how the theory of Group Evolution- the evoltuon of behavious within groups, such as altruism, which enable the survival of a group of a certain organism- could have propagated the existence of organised religion, and many (more liberal) christians use this as ratification for their beleif that God used evoltuion to create us as his favoured race, and to begin His Church.

Why then, if there is so much middle ground between the two factions of Evoltuion and Creationism, and by extention Science and Religion, does such conflict patently exist? The ancient greek philosopher, aristotle, once postulated the theory of 'Horror Vacui', which proposed that humans 'fear' 'gaps' in our knowledge, and that we try to fill these 'vacui'. Aristotle suggested that we fill these gaps with Gods- with parables and deities. The God of the Gaps theory, as detailed by Ian A. Barbour, also suggests this- that as humans have gained more knowledge about how the world works, we have lost the need for deities such as 'Thor, the thunder god' from the Norse religion, because we now know that thunder is just the sonic boom of superheated air formed around a lightning strike. These two theories do not, however, entirely show why such conflict does exist between Relgion and Science- there was not such conflict when Science showed that water cannot turn to wine, that the only creature able to walk on water is the bicycle lizard, so why is there such conflict now? The answer lies in creation's placement within the bible- Genesis 1:1 'In the BEGGINING, God created the heaven and the earth'. The begigning. The conflict between relgion and science is due, majorly, to the fact that religion has no-where else to retreat into, no more parables to refute, no more deities to give up. Creationism is Relgiion's Britian, it's last hope against the Nazi machine of Science's Evolution.

And so, creationism fights back. It fights back by becoming a psudo-science, and by criticising the ethics of evoltuion- the Nazi analogy is quite apt, because creationists point to the fact that darwin's theory was the major inpiration for Hitler's Nazi Eugenics program, in order to discredit the theory, but in reality this is just a criticism of the ethics of the theory, and similar arguments, such as the 'It's adam and eve, not adam and steve' movement in central USA could be applied to the christian view of creation too.

Richard Dawkins, militant athest and staunch evolutionist, proposed the existence of the 'Meme' in his groundbreaking book 'The selfish gene'. he wrote that 'just as genes propagate themselves by leaping from body to body... so to do memes propagate themselves by leaping from brain to brain'. Dawkins saw memes as social genes, the mental coders for, for example; songs, books, or theories, and that these memes only survive by being, for example; catchy, entertaining, or correct. The paradox is that, in the conflict between Evolution and Creationism, when one side becomes the victor, that meme will have survived, proving, no-matter who the real victor is, that evolution is the correct theory.

In conclusion, the conflict between Evolution and Creationism is due to the fact that, through Aristotle's horror vacui and Barbour's God of the GAp's theory, and Dawkin's meme theory, the conflcit between them will, once resolved, resolve the conflict between science and religion once and for all, by disproving relgion.

Let me first say that your spelling is worse than bad. You need a spell-checker like a fish needs water. There are many free ones on the internet – get out there and find one! In later life you will find that people either laugh at you or ignore your arguments because of this insult you throw before them.

Basically, your conclusion cannot be reached as God has created mysteries that man will never comprehend fully. Every discovery starts a new question. This being the case, there will always be a gap, ergo, there will always be a God!

Thank you






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Default Re: Science and Religion - 06-04-2009, 08:49 PM

So tell us, at your school, does everyone get a prize?


Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
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Default Re: Science and Religion - 06-04-2009, 08:55 PM

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Originally Posted by Ezekiel Bathfire View Post

Let me first say that your spelling is worse than bad. You need a spell-checker like a fish needs water. There are many free ones on the internet – get out there and find one! In later life you will find that people either laugh at you or ignore your arguments because of this insult you throw before them.

Basically, your conclusion cannot be reached as God has created mysteries that man will never comprehend fully. Every discovery starts a new question. This being the case, there will always be a gap, ergo, there will always be a God!

Thank you


my goodness, will you all get off the spelling! my laptop is slowly breaking, end of. Answering you, Bathfire, i said that there would be no more gaps to fill in the bible. Religion can invent whatever they like, but at the end of the day, once evolution is proved, genesis is disproved, and organsized religion surrounding not only the bible, but all holy books that concieve of a god of classical theism, will be defunct.
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Default Re: Science and Religion - 06-04-2009, 08:59 PM

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Originally Posted by James Hutchins View Post
So tell us, at your school, does everyone get a prize?

which conversation are you following, james? nobars from 3 pages ago?
please, just tire yourselves out commenting on the spelling and hogswashing etc etc etc and then actually address the essay. Hopefully youll have got round to it just after i finnish my exam tomorrow.
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Default Re: Science and Religion - 06-04-2009, 09:01 PM

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Originally Posted by Pandeth View Post
albiet replacing the murder of 6 million jews with spelling.
Are you equating your awful spelling with the atrocities of the Nazis? Son, take your anti-semitism somewhere else, we don't tolerate racists here!




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Default Re: Science and Religion - 06-04-2009, 09:07 PM

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Are you equating your awful spelling with the atrocities of the Nazis? Son, take your anti-semitism somewhere else, we don't tolerate racists here!
goodness me, im not being antisemitic, im just showing how christians always criticise the non relevant parts of any theory- evolution; it must be wrong because it perpetuated the holocaust, my essay; must be wrong because my spellchecker doesnt work.

besides, ive already read your thread on the orangutang prostitute, and one woman said 'i think all the men must have been confused, she looks like a n****ress anyway'

nice.
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Default Re: Science and Religion - 06-04-2009, 09:12 PM

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Originally Posted by Pandeth View Post
[...]Answering you, Bathfire, i said that [...] once evolution is proved, genesis is disproved, and organsized religion surrounding not only the bible, but all holy books that concieve of a god of classical theism, will be defunct.
Strangely enough, I read what you said and commented that with each discovery there will be new questions. There will never be sufficient proof to confirm evolution as a "law."

We can safely say this because of the billions of creatures that, according to your so-called science, lived a long time ago, there are less than 0.00001% that are fossils and of those, only 0.00001% will ever be found and of them only 0.00001% will ever be examined sufficiently. Therefore "proof" is impossible. BUT if one, just one, fossil ever turns out to have been made by God, as it will be, evilution is a dead duck.





“We must reassert that the essence of Christianity is the love of obedience to God’s Laws and that how that complete obedience is used or implemented does not concern us.”

Author of such illuminating essays as,
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Default Re: Science and Religion - 06-04-2009, 09:22 PM

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Originally Posted by Pandeth View Post
which conversation are you following, james? nobars from 3 pages ago?
please, just tire yourselves out commenting on the spelling and hogswashing etc etc etc and then actually address the essay. Hopefully youll have got round to it just after i finnish my exam tomorrow.
So I guess everyone did get a prize, how nice.

Well, I think it should be pretty obvious, even to a simpleton. You are the one who wrote "the mighty' paper. Perhaps things have changed since I was in school but when I was being educated, being able to convey a thought to an audience was an important part of education. Improper spelling, poor grammar and bad punctuation deflect the audience attention. We did not have electronic spell check, only our minds. Had there been a strong original thought in the 'paper' (since when is 13 paragraphs a paper?) perhaps the basic errors would be less glaring.


Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
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Default Re: Science and Religion - 06-04-2009, 09:29 PM

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Originally Posted by James Hutchins View Post
So I guess everyone did get a prize, how nice.

Well, I think it should be pretty obvious, even to a simpleton. You are the one who wrote "the mighty' paper. Perhaps things have changed since I was in school but when I was being educated, being able to convey a thought to an audience was an important part of education. Improper spelling, poor grammar and bad punctuation deflect the audience attention. We did not have electronic spell check, only our minds. Had there been a strong original thought in the 'paper' (since when is 13 paragraphs a paper?) perhaps the basic errors would be less glaring.
this was just an aid for revision. i have to write the 'essay'- not paper, im not doing honours, yet- tomorrow in an exam. it was merely posted in order to convey my message to you, not to have you criticise its spelling.
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Default Re: Science and Religion - 06-04-2009, 10:39 PM

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Originally Posted by Pandeth View Post
i came to the conclusion that IF somone proved religion, then that would disprove religion as we know it.
Please point out the assumptions that support your conclusion because I don't see them.

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Originally Posted by Pandeth View Post
i wasnt saying that they disprove religion, was just saying that, once a peice of evidence does come forward that proves evolution unequivocally, the arguments such as aristoltes horror vacui and the god oof the gaps theory show that religion would not be able to fill any more gaps.
thus being disproved.
One, the question of abiogenesis is just one small aspect of the Christian faith. Two, you write that there are heretical Christians who accept the theory of evolution but are still able to maintain their faith. If that is possible, how do you come to the conclusion that "proof" of evolution has the ability to overcome religion?


Matthew 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
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Default Re: Science and Religion - 06-04-2009, 11:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandeth View Post
this was just an aid for revision. i have to write the 'essay'- not paper, im not doing honours, yet- tomorrow in an exam. it was merely posted in order to convey my message to you, not to have you criticise its spelling.

Is the exam before or after nap time?


Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
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Default Re: Science and Religion - 06-23-2009, 11:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Bois Ward View Post
Please point out the assumptions that support your conclusion because I don't see them.

One, the question of abiogenesis is just one small aspect of the Christian faith. Two, you write that there are heretical Christians who accept the theory of evolution but are still able to maintain their faith. If that is possible, how do you come to the conclusion that "proof" of evolution has the ability to overcome religion?
1) Taking religion as a meme, allowing the religious meme to survive over the evolutionary meme would, because the concept of the meme is an evolutionary one, prove evolution regardless of the actual result, meaning that, hypothetically, if one could prove religion, then you would disprove it. Not that a person could, because, as outlined at the start of my essay, religion is not based on scientific proof, and it is the fact that it strives to create this proof which makes it so hated by many in the world community

2) your last question, about heretical christians; i stated this because, although some humans have managed to adapt the memes of evolution and creation, or science and relgion, so that they fit together, eventually one must win- the larger beak must be more fit, or the smaller beak; these heretical christians have the mental equivalent of carrying the coders for both, and so, if memes were genetic, wouldnt survive.

3)i used the example of creation, to answer your comment about abiogenesis, because of the ferocity of the debate between it and its rivals compared to other parts of biblical/scientific debate, and because of its position so close to the start of the bible.

there is a bible parable about a man who builds his house on sand. I chose abiogenesis because, although disproving various parts of the bible wrong may undermine parts of it, disproving its beggining chapters, its beggining book, would undermine the whole, leading to a larger argument and therefore a much easier to define the relationships between the two sides.
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Default Re: Science and Religion - 06-23-2009, 11:58 PM

I showed that to my 8 year old grand daughter, she said,
"Is this one of your tricks, Grandpa Ezekiel?"

(I assured her it was not.)

She continued, "Why has the silly man assumed that evilution is proven? His entire argument is based upon a false premise."

I told her she was a good girl and that I would buy her a toy ironing board tomorrow.

Sir, I have not the faintest idea how you bribed your way into any place of learning.





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Default Re: Science and Religion - 06-24-2009, 12:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel Bathfire View Post
I showed that to my 8 year old grand daughter, she said,
"Is this one of your tricks, Grandpa Ezekiel?"

(I assured her it was not.)

She continued, "Why has the silly man assumed that evilution is proven? His entire argument is based upon a false premise."

I told her she was a good girl and that I would buy her a toy ironing board tomorrow.

Sir, I have not the faintest idea how you bribed your way into any place of learning.

aww, how cute. i dont think, however, that i showed that evolution was proven. i only said that, if religion was proved, so to would evolution be, and i said, not in a derogertory fashion, that religion cannot be proved, because it relies on belief, not evidence.
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Default Re: Science and Religion - 06-24-2009, 12:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandeth View Post
aww, how cute. i dont think, however, that i showed that evolution was proven. i only said that, if religion was proved, so to would evolution be, and i said, not in a derogertory fashion, that religion cannot be proved, because it relies on belief, not evidence.
You made the unproven assumption that the concept of the meme was evolutionary. That claim cannot be made unless evilution is proven.

I can prove anything if you allow me a few false assumptions.





“We must reassert that the essence of Christianity is the love of obedience to God’s Laws and that how that complete obedience is used or implemented does not concern us.”

Author of such illuminating essays as,
Map of the Known World; Periodic Table of Elements; The History of Linguistics; The Errors of Wicca; Dolphins and Evolution; The History of Landover (The Apology); Landover and the Civil War; 2000 Racial Slurs.
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Default Re: Science and Religion - 06-24-2009, 12:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel Bathfire View Post
You made the unproven assumption that the concept of the meme was evolutionary. That claim cannot be made unless evilution is proven.

I can prove anything if you allow me a few false assumptions.

Pardon me, but the victory of either Science or Religion proves meme theory- the victory of one social coder, one theory, over another, happens is much the same way as the victory over large beaks and small beaks on a genetic level. If i have to spell it out;

If religion is proved, then that theory has become the victor- it is more fit to its habitat- society. If this happens, we can see that meme theory is a valid process, because of this victory. As meme theory is an evolutionary theory- and offshoot of gene theory, we can therefore logically conclude that, if meme theory was to be proved, so too would gene theory be proved, meaning that, should any one theory become the victor, become more fit than the other, then the theory of evolution will be proved, and therefore so will science be, as the most valid theory.
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Default Re: Science and Religion - 06-24-2009, 01:18 PM

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Pardon me,
I may pardon you but the real point is, “Will God?”
Quote:
but the victory of either Science or Religion proves meme theory
Oh Dear! Memes are the invention of the arch-satan Dawkins – Satan is the Father Of Lies, thus we cannot accept the idea.


You keep saying that memes are evolutionary; if you read Dawkins, he assumes that ideas are passed down in teachings or observed behavior patterns (the latter being consciously or unconsciously copied.) He sees “Chinese whispering” having a part in this and the better memes surviving. From your and his points of view, the trouble with this is that True Christianity has passed from God to us without error or interruption and is revealed in KJV1611. So it is either the best idea in the world and/or The One Truth. As there is no “Evolution” in the Bible, it is against God’s Word. Everything else is an iniquity, an abomination and/or God has rejected it. Thus we see that change, or as you would have it evolution, plays no part.
Quote:
the victory of one social coder, one theory, over another, happens is much the same way as the victory over large beaks and small beaks on a genetic level. If i have to spell it out;
You rabbit on about survival of the fittest; yet you reject the most obvious solution. Punctuated Smiting


Darwin’s problem was that he went and found some variants in God’s intricate design and then made his own theory to fit them. This is the same as if you postulate that crickets hear through their legs. To do this experiment, put a cricket on the table and clap your hands – the cricket will jump. Cut off the cricket’s legs, clap your hands and it will not move.
Quote:
offshoot of gene theory, we can therefore logically conclude that,
No we can’t. These are “Theories” not immutable proven laws and, if you want to know about breeding things in a certain way, God has that covered in the Bible:



Animal Breeding – Genetics
Ge:30:37: And Jacob took him rods of green poplar, and of the hazel and chesnut tree; and pilled white strakes in them, and made the white appear which was in the rods.
Ge:30:38: And he set the rods which he had pilled before the flocks in the gutters in the watering troughs when the flocks came to drink, that they should conceive when they came to drink.
Ge:30:39: And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted.


That is how it works.





“We must reassert that the essence of Christianity is the love of obedience to God’s Laws and that how that complete obedience is used or implemented does not concern us.”

Author of such illuminating essays as,
Map of the Known World; Periodic Table of Elements; The History of Linguistics; The Errors of Wicca; Dolphins and Evolution; The History of Landover (The Apology); Landover and the Civil War; 2000 Racial Slurs.
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