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Old 04-12-2011, 07:38 PM
epignosis epignosis is offline
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Default Re: The Most MISUNDERSTOOD Passage in All the Bible (Matthew 7:1-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Jim Osborne View Post
Matthew 7:1-5 Explained
The so-called "prohibition against judging"



Again, I must point reiterate, nowhere in the Bible does it tell us not to judge. Period. I hope this exegesis of Matthew 7:1-5 has been enlightening for you and and you will refrain from looking like an idiot in the future by claiming that "Jesus said we can't judge others".

Yours in Christ,

Rev. Jim Osborne
James 4:12 (King James Version)

12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Romans 14:4 (King James Version)

4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.


Matthew 7:1-5 (King James Version)

Matthew 7

1Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

We have to be very careful , when it comes to judging others. Because in the end it comes to God doing the judging, and it may be found that our judging maybe actually against God.
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  #22  
Old 04-12-2011, 08:04 PM
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Zechariah Smyth Zechariah Smyth is offline
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Default Re: The Most MISUNDERSTOOD Passage in All the Bible (Matthew 7:1-

Quote:
Originally Posted by epignosis View Post
James 4:12 (King James Version)

12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Romans 14:4 (King James Version)

4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.


Matthew 7:1-5 (King James Version)

Matthew 7

1Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

We have to be very careful , when it comes to judging others. Because in the end it comes to God doing the judging, and it may be found that our judging maybe actually against God.
Yup, lots of folks cherry-pick those verses, and totally neglect some like this:

(Leviticus 19:15) "Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour."

and

(John 7:24) "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

Etc. etc.

Friend, you appear to have a passing familiarity with the Bible, or at least some reasonably decent internets skills, but in order to gain entrance to Heaven you must accept the WHOLE Bible.

(Deuteronomy 4:2) "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."



Yours in Christ,

Z. Smyth

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Old 04-12-2011, 09:59 PM
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Default Re: The Most MISUNDERSTOOD Passage in All the Bible (Matthew 7:1-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zechariah Smyth View Post
Yup, lots of folks cherry-pick those verses, and totally neglect some like this:

(Leviticus 19:15) "Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour."

and

(John 7:24) "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

Etc. etc.

Friend, you appear to have a passing familiarity with the Bible, or at least some reasonably decent internets skills, but in order to gain entrance to Heaven you must accept the WHOLE Bible.

(Deuteronomy 4:2) "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."



Yours in Christ,

Z. Smyth


The scriptures I mentioned are also in the bible, just as the ones you brought up. So, is this a contradiction of the bible it'self, or is it to be understood a different way? What I mean, is there deeper understanding to this?
If you took the scriptures I quoted and the ones you quoted literately or a least at face value you would have a contradiction of the scriptures. One side saying do not judge and other side saying it is OK to judge.
So are you saying Matthew 7:1-5 is not correct? Or is inaccurate?


Matthew 7:1–5
aJudge not, bthat ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and cwith what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, dfirst cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
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  #24  
Old 04-12-2011, 11:04 PM
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Default Re: The Most MISUNDERSTOOD Passage in All the Bible (Matthew 7:1-

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Originally Posted by epignosis View Post
The scriptures I mentioned are also in the bible, just as the ones you brought up. So, is this a contradiction of the bible it'self, or is it to be understood a different way? What I mean, is there deeper understanding to this?
If you took the scriptures I quoted and the ones you quoted literately or a least at face value you would have a contradiction of the scriptures. One side saying do not judge and other side saying it is OK to judge.
So are you saying Matthew 7:1-5 is not correct? Or is inaccurate?


Matthew 7:1–5
aJudge not, bthat ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and cwith what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, dfirst cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
Matthew 7 is only if you are judging hypocritically. It would be like me having an affair on my wife while judging you for doing the same.

It's something you have to be careful of.
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Old 04-13-2011, 02:20 AM
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Default Re: The Most MISUNDERSTOOD Passage in All the Bible (Matthew 7:1-

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Originally Posted by Pastor William Nathaniel Sampson View Post
Matthew 7 is only if you are judging hypocritically. It would be like me having an affair on my wife while judging you for doing the same.

It's something you have to be careful of.
There are many ways to judge ones, hypocritically. It doesn't mean it has to be the same sin.
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Old 04-13-2011, 03:01 AM
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Default Re: The Most MISUNDERSTOOD Passage in All the Bible (Matthew 7:1-

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Originally Posted by epignosis View Post
There are many ways to judge ones, hypocritically. It doesn't mean it has to be the same sin.
That's why when True Christians™ judge others, there is no hypocrisy. Sin is a thing of the past for us.

I John 3:6-9
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We've already been over this. Did you bother to read the thread to see if your concerns had already been addressed before posting?
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Old 04-13-2011, 03:00 PM
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Default Re: The Most MISUNDERSTOOD Passage in All the Bible (Matthew 7:1-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedediah View Post
That's why when True Christians™ judge others, there is no hypocrisy. Sin is a thing of the past for us.

I John 3:6-9
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We've already been over this. Did you bother to read the thread to see if your concerns had already been addressed before posting?
Yes I did read the rest of this thread, that is why I really felt the need to comment on this.

Romans 5:12 (King James Version)

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

To say that we are perfect, is actually a contradiction of this scripture.
Adam and Eve had a direct relationship with God. But we need Jesus as a mediator.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 (King James Version)

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

To say were are perfect denies what Jesus died for.
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Old 04-13-2011, 04:58 PM
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Default Re: The Most MISUNDERSTOOD Passage in All the Bible (Matthew 7:1-

I would like to add a few more comments on this 'perfection'

1 Kings 8:46-48 (King James Version)

46If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;


Proverbs 20:9 (King James Version)

9Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

These scriptures say that all men are sinners.



I John 3:6-9 (KJV)
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 3:6-9 (New Living Translation)

6 Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.

7 Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. 8 But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. 9 Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life[a] is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God.

Do you see in this scripture that it is the practice of sin that is evil. And it is our not practising sin any more that we are counted as righteous. It doesn't mean we are perfect, or sinless.
The KJV doesn't give the full meaning to this verse.


1 John 5:18 (King James Version)

18We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.


1 John 5:18 (Amplified Bible)

18We know [absolutely] that anyone born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin, but the One Who was begotten of God carefully watches over and protects him [Christ's divine presence within him preserves him against the evil], and the wicked one does not lay hold (get a grip) on him or touch [him].


1 John 5:18 (New Living Translation)

18 We know that God’s children do not make a practice of sinning, for God’s Son holds them securely, and the evil one cannot touch them.

I added some other translations of the verse in 1 John 5:18.
The KJV is not very good with this verse. The other translations give a better understanding. It is not that we are perfect or sinless, but that we strive not to practice sin any more. That is how God counts us righteous or perfect. But we are not righteous or perfect like Jesus was, as a man.
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Old 04-13-2011, 06:51 PM
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Default Re: The Most MISUNDERSTOOD Passage in All the Bible (Matthew 7:1-

Quote:
Originally Posted by epignosis View Post
Yes I did read the rest of this thread, that is why I really felt the need to comment on this.

Romans 5:12 (King James Version)

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

To say that we are perfect, is actually a contradiction of this scripture.
Adam and Eve had a direct relationship with God. But we need Jesus as a mediator.
Friend, you shouldn't take Scripture out of context. If you had read further, you would have come across this Verse:

Romans 5:19:
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Romans 5:12 teaches that all have sinned, as it is explaining the nature of sin, and the forgiveness of sins because of Jesus' atoning Blood shed on the cross.

It then continues to explain that, as we all sin because of Adam's original sin, we are now made righteous by Jesus' sacrifice, effectively undoing Adam's transgression. This is why True Christians™ are without sin:

1 John 3:9:
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:18:

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Quote:
1 Timothy 2:5-6 (King James Version)

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

To say were are perfect denies what Jesus died for.
Nonsense. We are made perfect by Jesus' blood:

Colossians 1:21-22:
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight

So in fact the opposite is true: to say we aren't perfect is to deny that Jesus died for us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by epignosis View Post
I would like to add a few more comments on this 'perfection'

1 Kings 8:46-48 (King James Version)

46If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;
Again, this was written before Jesus died for our sins. Back then, there indeed were no sin-free persons.

Of course, there is also a difference between never sinning and being sin-free. We are not sin-free because we never sinned; we are sin-free because Jesus died for our sins.

Quote:
Proverbs 20:9 (King James Version)

9Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

These scriptures say that all men are sinners.
You rather clumsily misinterpret this Passage. It doesn't say that all people are in sin, it says that no person can make his heart clean himself. Only Jesus can do that.

Quote:
I John 3:6-9 (KJV)
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 3:6-9 (New Living Translation)

6 Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.

7 Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. 8 But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. 9 Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life[a] is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God.

Do you see in this scripture that it is the practice of sin that is evil. And it is our not practising sin any more that we are counted as righteous. It doesn't mean we are perfect, or sinless.
The KJV doesn't give the full meaning to this verse.


1 John 5:18 (King James Version)

18We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1 John 5:18 (Amplified Bible)

18We know [absolutely] that anyone born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin, but the One Who was begotten of God carefully watches over and protects him [Christ's divine presence within him preserves him against the evil], and the wicked one does not lay hold (get a grip) on him or touch [him].

1 John 5:18 (New Living Translation)

18 We know that God’s children do not make a practice of sinning, for God’s Son holds them securely, and the evil one cannot touch them.

I added some other translations of the verse in 1 John 5:18.
The KJV is not very good with this verse. The other translations give a better understanding. It is not that we are perfect or sinless, but that we strive not to practice sin any more. That is how God counts us righteous or perfect. But we are not righteous or perfect like Jesus was, as a man.
Friend, the NLT is a modern corruption of God's Word. We only follow the KJV here, and if the KJV says: "True Christians cannot sin," then True Christians cannot sin.

And even if you look at the "original Greek," then the NLT translation is not supported, as the words translated as "doth not commit sin" are hamartian ou poiei. Hamartia means "sin," in the Bible it is used many times, like here:

Matthew 26:28:
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (hamartia)


I would think it means "sin" here, wouldn't you?

Ou means "not," poieo means "to do." So, hamartian ou poiei means "does not commit sins." The "making a practice of," "deliberately and knowingly" and "strive not to" parts of the NLT aren't supported anywhere by the original Greek text, and were just made up at the spot to twist Scripture to make it deny the sin-free state of True Christians™.
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Dash their little children against the stones for their fathers iniquity! (Psalm 137:8-9)
Hit them on the cheek, and smash out their teeth! (Psalm 3:7)
Make their death and descent into Hell swift and terrible! (Psalm 55:15)
Scatter their broken bodies over the streets of their evil cities, like Benghazi, Amsterdam, Tokyo and Mecca! (Psalm 110:6)
Praised be Your Glorious Name™.

Amen.

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Old 04-13-2011, 07:37 PM
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Default Re: The Most MISUNDERSTOOD Passage in All the Bible (Matthew 7:1-

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Originally Posted by True Disciple View Post

Friend, the NLT is a modern corruption of God's Word. We only follow the KJV here, and if the KJV says: "True Christians cannot sin," then True Christians cannot sin.
Amen, brother. The NLT is even worse than the NIV in most ways.

From here
The New Living Translation used translators from a variety of denominations. The methodology combined an attempt to translate the original texts simply and literally with a dynamic equivalence synergy approach used to convey the thoughts behind the text where a literal translation may have been difficult to understand or even misleading to modern readers. It has been suggested that this "thought-for-thought" methodology, while making the translation easier to understand, is less accurate than a literal (formal equivalence) method, and thus the New Living Translation may not be suitable for those wishing to undertake detailed study of the Bible.

They admit that they are not translating the Word accurately. Then, they even admit to picking and choosing which manuscript said the closest to what they wanted it to say. These charlatans went so far as to even use the Latin Vulgate when it suited their fancy.
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Old 04-13-2011, 07:43 PM
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Default Re: The Most MISUNDERSTOOD Passage in All the Bible (Matthew 7:1-

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Originally Posted by epignosis View Post
I added some other translations of the verse in 1 John 5:18.
The KJV is not very good with this verse. The other translations give a better understanding. It is not that we are perfect or sinless, but that we strive not to practice sin any more. That is how God counts us righteous or perfect. But we are not righteous or perfect like Jesus was, as a man.
Only your modern perversions that use dynamic equivalence and don't stay faithful to the source material.

Have a look at serious Bibles.

New American Standard.

1 John 3 4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and (L)sin is lawlessness.
5You know that He (M)appeared in order to (N)take away sins; and (O)in Him there is no sin.
6No one who abides in Him (P)sins; no one who sins has seen Him or (Q)knows Him.
7Little children, make sure no one (S)deceives you; (T)the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8the one who practices sin is (U)of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning (V)The Son of God (W)appeared for this purpose, (X)to destroy the works of the devil.
9No one who is (Y)born of God (Z)practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

English Standard

4Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness;(M) sin is lawlessness. 5You know that(N) he appeared to(O) take away sins, and(P) in him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in him keeps on sinning;(Q) no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7Little children, let no one deceive you.(S) Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8(T) Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was(U) to destroy the works of the devil. 9(V) No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s[b] seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Young's Literal Translation

4Every one who is doing the sin, the lawlessness also he doth do, and the sin is the lawlessness,
5and ye have known that he was manifested that our sins he may take away, and sin is not in him;
6every one who is remaining in him doth not sin; every one who is sinning, hath not seen him, nor known him.
7Little children, let no one lead you astray; he who is doing the righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous,
8he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil;
9every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten.
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  #32  
Old 04-13-2011, 07:46 PM
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Default Re: The Most MISUNDERSTOOD Passage in All the Bible (Matthew 7:1-

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Originally Posted by True Disciple View Post
Friend, you shouldn't take Scripture out of context. If you had read further, you would have come across this Verse:
That is true, you have to use all scriptures, to come to the correct understanding. No contradictions.

Psalm 51:5 (King James Version)

5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 3:23 (King James Version)

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Ephesians 2:3-7 (King James Version)

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

We are all born into sin. We can not escape that. We all fall short of the glory of God. In Ephesians 2:3 we also are "children of wrath, even as others".
In verse 5 "Even when we were dead in sins", Jesus counted us worthy to go with him. These ones are the one that follow Jesus.

[COLOR="Blue"]All the scriptures have to be in harmony. So in Romans 3:23 says all have fallen short of Gods glory, that is about all of us.
That is why the scripture in Ephesians 2:5 the brackets say (by grace ye are saved ) the reason we need grace is because even though we sin, he still took us with him. No grace would be needed if we were perfect.

All the scriptures in the bible talking about man, and his righteousness or perfection, have to be in harmony with each other.
So if you say, men who follow Christ are perfect and don't sin, then that understanding contradicts many of the scriptures on the topic.
There were many men in the bible that were good men and God was with them. But none of them could do what Jesus did. Because they were not perfect. God chose Jesus to come to the earth because he was going to be a perfect man ( physically) and he was sinless. All of us were born into sin, and imperfection.
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  #33  
Old 04-13-2011, 08:04 PM
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Default Re: The Most MISUNDERSTOOD Passage in All the Bible (Matthew 7:1-

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Originally Posted by epignosis View Post
That is true, you have to use all scriptures, to come to the correct understanding. No contradictions.

Psalm 51:5 (King James Version)

5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
I'm not sure who the Psalmist is there and I'm not going to look it up, but Psalm 119 tells us.

1Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
2Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
3They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
4Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
5O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
6Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.

Then there is Ezekiel

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by epignosis View Post
Romans 3:23 (King James Version)

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
That is prior to salvation. God sent Jesus as a sacrifice. Look at verse 25

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Quote:
Originally Posted by epignosis View Post
Ephesians 2:3-7 (King James Version)

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Notice the part I highlighted for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by epignosis View Post
But none of them could do what Jesus did. Because they were not perfect. God chose Jesus to come to the earth because he was going to be a perfect man ( physically) and he was sinless. All of us were born into sin, and imperfection.
So the Psalmist is just boasting here?

Psalm 101:2 I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.

Then there is Luke 1.

Luke 1:5-6 THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
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  #34  
Old 04-13-2011, 08:08 PM
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Default Re: The Most MISUNDERSTOOD Passage in All the Bible (Matthew 7:1-

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Originally Posted by epignosis View Post
That is true, you have to use all scriptures, to come to the correct understanding. No contradictions.

Psalm 51:5 (King James Version)

5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 3:23 (King James Version)

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Ephesians 2:3-7 (King James Version)

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

We are all born into sin. We can not escape that. We all fall short of the glory of God. In Ephesians 2:3 we also are "children of wrath, even as others".
In verse 5 "Even when we were dead in sins", Jesus counted us worthy to go with him. These ones are the one that follow Jesus.

All the scriptures have to be in harmony. So in Romans 3:23 says all have fallen short of Gods glory, that is about all of us.
That is why the scripture in Ephesians 2:5 the brackets say (by grace ye are saved ) the reason we need grace is because even though we sin, he still took us with him. No grace would be needed if we were perfect.


Friend, now you are just repeating yourself. None of these Verses speak about people who are already Saved™.

Psalm 51:5 teaches that people are born evil. I do not dispute that.
Romans 3:23 confirms the natural evil character of all human beings.
Ephesians 2:3-7 teaches that believers that they also were sinful in their natural state.

However, the point here is that this natural state of sin is supplanted by a sin-free state which is made possible by Jesus' death on the cross. We are not natural men anymore:

1 Corinthians 2:14:

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


No grace would be needed if we were born perfect. But we aren't. Grace is the very thing that makes us perfect!

Quote:
All the scriptures in the bible talking about man, and his righteousness or perfection, have to be in harmony with each other.
So if you say, men who follow Christ are perfect and don't sin, then that understanding contradicts many of the scriptures on the topic.
As I've shown, it doesn't contradict a single Passage of the Bible, and you contradict both 1 John 3:9 and 5:18 when you claim that True Christians™ aren't sin-free.

Quote:
There were many men in the bible that were good men and God was with them. But none of them could do what Jesus did. Because they were not perfect. God chose Jesus to come to the earth because he was going to be a perfect man ( physically) and he was sinless. All of us were born into sin, and imperfection.
Born in sin, that is true.
Have you ever considered what might be the meaning of the phrase "born again?"
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Sweet Lord Jesus,
I want to pray for those who persecute me, my Lord.
Please, treat their children as you treated those of Egypt, when they upset you! (Psalm 135:8-9)
Dash their little children against the stones for their fathers iniquity! (Psalm 137:8-9)
Hit them on the cheek, and smash out their teeth! (Psalm 3:7)
Make their death and descent into Hell swift and terrible! (Psalm 55:15)
Scatter their broken bodies over the streets of their evil cities, like Benghazi, Amsterdam, Tokyo and Mecca! (Psalm 110:6)
Praised be Your Glorious Name™.

Amen.

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Old 04-13-2011, 11:14 PM
epignosis epignosis is offline
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Default Re: The Most MISUNDERSTOOD Passage in All the Bible (Matthew 7:1-

Quote:
Friend, now you are just repeating yourself. None of these Verses speak about people who are already Saved™.
Hebrews 10:26-29 (King James Version)

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Matthew 24:12-15 (King James Version)

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

There is no sure thing for salvation. You have to remain faithful. Not all do. Judas is an example of that. Adam and Eve were perfect, they both fell. Satan was angel and given the position of ruling the earth, and he fell.
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Old 04-13-2011, 11:21 PM
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Default Re: The Most MISUNDERSTOOD Passage in All the Bible (Matthew 7:1-

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Originally Posted by epignosis View Post
Hebrews 10:26-29 (King James Version)

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Matthew 24:12-15 (King James Version)

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

There is no sure thing for salvation. You have to remain faithful. Not all do. Judas is an example of that. Adam and Eve were perfect, they both fell. Satan was angel and given the position of ruling the earth, and he fell.
Friend, you are structurally quoting Scripture that doesn't support your viewpoints.

Hebrews 10:26-29 teaches that if anyone rejects Jesus after receiving knowledge of the Truth™, there is no remission of sins anymore for that person. It clearly teaches that people who sin aren't Saved™, which was more or less my point.

And yes, we should endure to the end, because otherwise, we won't get Saved™. If we do not remain faithful, we lose our Salvation™, and only Saved™ people are sin-free.

Judas never was Saved™. Adam and Eve lived before Jesus died for our sins. And what you say about Satan isn't supported anywhere in the Bible.

What exactly is your point?
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Sweet Lord Jesus,
I want to pray for those who persecute me, my Lord.
Please, treat their children as you treated those of Egypt, when they upset you! (Psalm 135:8-9)
Dash their little children against the stones for their fathers iniquity! (Psalm 137:8-9)
Hit them on the cheek, and smash out their teeth! (Psalm 3:7)
Make their death and descent into Hell swift and terrible! (Psalm 55:15)
Scatter their broken bodies over the streets of their evil cities, like Benghazi, Amsterdam, Tokyo and Mecca! (Psalm 110:6)
Praised be Your Glorious Name™.

Amen.

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  #37  
Old 04-14-2011, 01:30 AM
epignosis epignosis is offline
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Default Re: The Most MISUNDERSTOOD Passage in All the Bible (Matthew 7:1-

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Originally Posted by True Disciple View Post
Friend, you are structurally quoting Scripture that doesn't support your viewpoints.

Hebrews 10:26-29 teaches that if anyone rejects Jesus after receiving knowledge of the Truth™, there is no remission of sins anymore for that person. It clearly teaches that people who sin aren't Saved™, which was more or less my point.

And yes, we should endure to the end, because otherwise, we won't get Saved™. If we do not remain faithful, we lose our Salvation™, and only Saved™ people are sin-free.

Judas never was Saved™. Adam and Eve lived before Jesus died for our sins. And what you say about Satan isn't supported anywhere in the Bible.

What exactly is your point?
The point is that the bible makes it clear that it is only the ones that endure to the end that will be saved. So a person’s final salvation is not determined at the moment that he begins to put faith in Jesus.

Matthew 24:13 (King James Version)

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Psalm 37:29 (King James Version)

29The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

Proverbs 2:21 (King James Version)

21For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.

Adam and Eve were perfect and were intended to live forever on the earth.
So 'perfect' people, can still go against God. So salvation is a matter of endurance to the end. And the hope of mankind is of the earth.
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  #38  
Old 04-14-2011, 06:04 AM
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Zechariah Smyth Zechariah Smyth is offline
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Zechariah Smyth will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Zechariah Smyth will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Zechariah Smyth will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Zechariah Smyth will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Zechariah Smyth will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Zechariah Smyth will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Zechariah Smyth will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Zechariah Smyth will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Zechariah Smyth will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Zechariah Smyth will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!Zechariah Smyth will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the Glory!
Default Re: The Most MISUNDERSTOOD Passage in All the Bible (Matthew 7:1-

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Originally Posted by epignosis View Post
Proverbs 2:21 (King James Version)

21For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.

Adam and Eve were perfect and were intended to live forever on the earth.
So 'perfect' people, can still go against God. So salvation is a matter of endurance to the end. And the hope of mankind is of the earth.
Where does it say that Adam and Eve were perfect?

True, God "created man in his own image" (Genesis 1:27), but that's like saying a Polaroid picture/image of you is EXACTLY/PERFECTLY like you...it's simply not true.

It looks like you included Proverbs 2:21 as some tenuous support of your position, but that is not talking about Adam and Eve, as Proverbs 2:22 makes plain.

Yours in Christ,

Z. Smyth
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Old 04-14-2011, 07:55 AM
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True Disciple True Disciple is offline
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Default Re: The Most MISUNDERSTOOD Passage in All the Bible (Matthew 7:1-

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Originally Posted by epignosis View Post
The point is that the bible makes it clear that it is only the ones that endure to the end that will be saved. So a person’s final salvation is not determined at the moment that he begins to put faith in Jesus.

Matthew 24:13 (King James Version)

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Psalm 37:29 (King James Version)

29The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

Proverbs 2:21 (King James Version)

21For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.

Adam and Eve were perfect and were intended to live forever on the earth.
So 'perfect' people, can still go against God. So salvation is a matter of endurance to the end. And the hope of mankind is of the earth.
There are quite a few Passages you are overlooking:

Ephesians 4:30:
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

2 Corinthians 1:22:

Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

We are sealed by the Holy Spirit of God "unto the day of redemption." It protects us from falling away again.

John 10:28-29:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


No man is able to "pluck us from Jesus' hand" once Jesus gave us eternal life.

Romans 8:38-39:
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


There is nothing on this world that can separate us from Jesus' Love, once we have accepted Him as our Lord and Savior.

Romans 11:29:

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

If God called you to be Saved™, you are Saved™, because God doesn't repent about that.

Philippians 1:6:
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

God will finish the Work He has begun in us until the last of days. He will prevent us from falling away.

1 Peter 1:5:
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Again, it is God who makes sure that we keep believing in Him and are Saved™. To say that Saved™ people can fall away again is to deny God's Power to keep us from doing so.

So you see, once a person is Saved™, God will make sure that that person remains Saved™. Are you doubting His Almighty Power?
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Sweet Lord Jesus,
I want to pray for those who persecute me, my Lord.
Please, treat their children as you treated those of Egypt, when they upset you! (Psalm 135:8-9)
Dash their little children against the stones for their fathers iniquity! (Psalm 137:8-9)
Hit them on the cheek, and smash out their teeth! (Psalm 3:7)
Make their death and descent into Hell swift and terrible! (Psalm 55:15)
Scatter their broken bodies over the streets of their evil cities, like Benghazi, Amsterdam, Tokyo and Mecca! (Psalm 110:6)
Praised be Your Glorious Name™.

Amen.

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  #40  
Old 04-14-2011, 04:16 PM
epignosis epignosis is offline
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Default Re: The Most MISUNDERSTOOD Passage in All the Bible (Matthew 7:1-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zechariah Smyth View Post
Where does it say that Adam and Eve were perfect?

True, God "created man in his own image" (Genesis 1:27), but that's like saying a Polaroid picture/image of you is EXACTLY/PERFECTLY like you...it's simply not true.

It looks like you included Proverbs 2:21 as some tenuous support of your position, but that is not talking about Adam and Eve, as Proverbs 2:22 makes plain.

Yours in Christ,

Z. Smyth
Deuteronomy 32:1-10 (King James Version)

Deuteronomy 32

1Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

2My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

3Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

4He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Because all his work is perfect, this tells us that man (Adam) was not corrupted when created,but was perfect, but corrupted himself, by his being disloyal to God.


Genesis 1:26 (King James Version)

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


This scripture is saying that God was talking to Jesus and said "let us make man in our image". This means that we are like God in that we were perfect( would not die) and have the same qualities of God.



Romans 5 (King James Version)

Romans 5
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

The reason no man born of corruption ( from Adam) was used as a ransom, was that Adam was perfect, but all of Adams offspring were not perfect. Even though there were men that did follow God in a righteous way.
The one to come is Jesus, and he was to ransom mankind with the "similitude of Adam's transgression" Jesus was perfect just like Adam, so this would be the same type of situation that Adam had. A perfect man that lost perfection, able to ransome the rest of mankind by a perfect man who stayed loyal. Thus this gave mankind the opportunity to gain what was lost .
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