[Dave Schulthise]

Re: Proof that Purgatory is in the Bible

Romeo Ragvagnati, by simply translating the presented quote, it seems that it in fact has nothing to do with purgatory. It states: “I took him up into an exceeding high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and said to him: All these will give you if you fall down and worship me.” Perhaps you saw some less obvious meaning that I did not, would you care to explain?

[DolliMoans]

Re: Proof that Purgatory is in the Bible

Any sentient being that fails to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior is damned, if I am correct. That includes children supposedly too young to Accept Him, people who die before knowing Him, animals, trees, Jews...etc. Even accepting Him doesn't necessarily guarantee Salvation, in fact, I understand only a sliver of a fraction get into Heaven.

[Didymus Much]

Re: Proof that Purgatory is in the Bible

Any sentient being that fails to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior is damned, if I am correct...

Nobody here cares about you being correct or not.


What does the Bible say on the subject?

[DolliMoans]

Re: Proof that Purgatory is in the Bible

Nobody here cares about you being correct or not.


What does the Bible say on the subject?

That I am a female who should be silent while my husband, or another man corrects me.
1 Timothy 2:11-12King James Version (KJV)

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence

[Didymus Much]

Re: Proof that Purgatory is in the Bible

That I am a female who should be silent while my husband, or another man corrects me.
1 Timothy 2:11-12King James Version (KJV)

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence

That's a different subject.

[Diesel Stanford]

Re: Proof that Purgatory is in the Bible

No, there is no Purgatory. Many try to make Outer Darkness to Purgatory. I must there is some truth by claming that Outer Darkness is not the Lake of Fire.

Matthew 8:12 - But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.Matthew 13:38 - The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one




We see, the children of the Kingdom is the good seed and still be cast into outer darkness. I must admit I'm deep into dispensational theology just like Peter S. Ruckman and Hal Lindsey. I often am known as a Christian Zionist. There is a discussion whether the children of the kingdom are the children of the spiritual kingdom (the Body of Christ) or the physical kingdom (Israel). But here it shouldn't matter, it says they are part of the good seed, not the bad seed. I absolutely agree with the explaination of Bob Wilkin.


What is the Outer Darkness?


Even though Pastor Dennis Rokser has a great overview too:
01 - Should You Fear Outer Darkness?



What do we read in 1 Corinthians 3:15? If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Those people did not land in hell, they were part of the good seed, but they failed to do a good job because they did not spend enough time walking in God's grace.


This sermon by brother Steve McVey could be a help how to gain eternal rewards:
The #1 Key To Overcoming Wrong Thoughts and Actions




There we can see, if you are saved, but then lose everything but salvation at the Bema Seat, you're gonna be very frustrated having lost your treasures in eternity. There will be tears flowing in heaven, however, they are still already in the Millenium, just missing out several joys. That has ZERO to do with purgatory. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Proof that Purgatory is in the Bible

salvation at the Bema Seat

Could you explain what the "bema seat" is please? I find when reading The Bible that no elaboration is needed. Sometimes a word may be unfamiliar in which case a brief description of its meaning suffices but Jesus was very straightforward about this. Machiavellian thought processes, such as found in Archbishops of Canterbury or cannibal witchdoctors, are not required. Complex theological gobbledygook demands skills never found in children and yet the mentality described by Jesus as competent to understand Salvation is exactly that:

Matthew 18:1-3 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him and set him in the midst of them and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Notice how Jesus did not say "be converted, and become as little children who got a PhD from Princeton before they were old enough to drive?" We get a few papists dropping in here (they are very prone to gobbledygook) and you may have noticed one of them started this thread. Countering his ravings with additional mumbojumbo runs counter to the example Jesus used and adds words to Scripture when none are called for. The Bible is perfect and complete. As such, augmentation from Ruckman or Lindsey (whoever they are) serves no purpose and would probably confuse me if I listened to them.

[Diesel Stanford]

Re: Proof that Purgatory is in the Bible

Could you explain what the "bema seat" is please? I find when reading The Bible that no elaboration is needed. Sometimes a word may be unfamiliar in which case a brief description of its meaning suffices but Jesus was very straightforward about this. Machiavellian thought processes, such as found in Archbishops of Canterbury or cannibal witchdoctors, are not required. Complex theological gobbledygook demands skills never found in children and yet the mentality described by Jesus as competent to understand Salvation is exactly that:

Matthew 18:1-3 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him and set him in the midst of them and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Notice how Jesus did not say "be converted, and become as little children who got a PhD from Princeton before they were old enough to drive?" We get a few papists dropping in here (they are very prone to gobbledygook) and you may have noticed one of them started this thread. Countering his ravings with additional mumbojumbo runs counter to the example Jesus used and adds words to Scripture when none are called for. The Bible is perfect and complete. As such, augmentation from Ruckman or Lindsey (whoever they are) serves no purpose and would probably confuse me if I listened to them.

The Bema Seat is simply the Judgement Seat of Christ mentioned multiple times in the two Epistles of Corinthian. 'Bema' is the Greek word. Yeah, it does not appear in the Bible, but neither does the word 'Bible'. God bless

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Proof that Purgatory is in the Bible

The Bema Seat is simply the Judgement Seat of Christ mentioned multiple times in the two Epistles of Corinthian. 'Bema' is the Greek word. Yeah, it does not appear in the Bible, but neither does the word 'Bible'. God bless

So you're saying that it describes the function of the seat rather than the physical style of the seat itself, regardless of what it was used for?

In that case why not just call it the Judgement Seat? When confusing form with function.—.or for that matter physical with spiritual.—.some reference beyond just saying so is helpful because you could equally well say that bema- means jasper and who'd know the difference? For example in Revelation some architecture is described which does involve jasper and which is related to The Bride of Christ. Now if jasper signified a hue of light that would be more abstract than if it it meant the stone. Here is some jasper.

In Revelation chapter 21 both usages appear. The holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, has the glory of God and light like precious stone.—.described as resembling jasper.—.clear as crystal. Is John telling us that Jesus will marry some radioactive jasper? I don't think so. Later on, in verse 15, the city is measured and has quite specific physical dimensions. Building materials are listed, one of which is jasper, used for walls and foundations. That sounds quite substantial to me, a real physical city intended for us as outlined by John Baptist in the following passage.

John 3:22-29 Jesus and his disciples [came] into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized. For John was not yet cast into prison. Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

The people referred to here are Christians. When we are united with Jesus it will not be as a hue of light which the use of words makes plain. It will not be an imaginary city any more than it will be an imaginary Jesus but if we simply takes words to mean whatever someones tells us they may as well mean nothing. As it is, we know what jasper is and know what judgement is so introducing bizarro words becomes superfluous just as confusing the spiritual with the physical is superfluous because The Bible presents its terms quite well and we all know the difference between a bride and a bridegroom.

[Diesel Stanford]

Re: Proof that Purgatory is in the Bible

So you're saying that it describes the function of the seat rather than the physical style of the seat itself, regardless of what it was used for?

In that case why not just call it the Judgement Seat? When confusing form with function.—.or for that matter physical with spiritual.—.some reference beyond just saying so is helpful because you could equally well say that bema- means jasper and who'd know the difference? For example in Revelation some architecture is described which does involve jasper and which is related to The Bride of Christ. Now if jasper signified a hue of light that would be more abstract than if it it meant the stone. Here is some jasper.

[ATTACH]27229[/ATTACH]

In Revelation chapter 21 both usages appear. The holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, has the glory of God and light like precious stone.—.described as resembling jasper.—.clear as crystal. Is John telling us that Jesus will marry some radioactive jasper? I don't think so. Later on, in verse 15, the city is measured and has quite specific physical dimensions. Building materials are listed, one of which is jasper, used for walls and foundations. That sounds quite substantial to me, a real physical city intended for us as outlined by John Baptist in the following passage.

John 3:22-29 Jesus and his disciples [came] into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized. For John was not yet cast into prison. Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

The people referred to here are Christians. When we are united with Jesus it will not be as a hue of light which the use of words makes plain. It will not be an imaginary city any more than it will be an imaginary Jesus but if we simply takes words to mean whatever someones tells us they may as well mean nothing. As it is, we know what jasper is and know what judgement is so introducing bizarro words becomes superfluous just as confusing the spiritual with the physical is superfluous because The Bible presents its terms quite well and we all know the difference between a bride and a bridegroom.

Amen, that is true.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Proof that Purgatory is in the Bible

No, there is no Purgatory. Many try to make Outer Darkness to Purgatory.

They would be Catlix. They are, as usual, wrong.

M'r:1:15: And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
M'r:1:16: Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.


Jesus is not hinting that if he walked a few miles further He would be in the Kingdom of God.


M't:12:28: But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God,then the kingdom of God is come unto you.


The Kingdom of God has no physical boundaries; it cannot be subject to the shifting political belief of insignificant humans. We might liken the Kingdom of God to a fog or mist enveloping all who accept Jesus. It surrounds us, by our breathing becomes part of us and yet, somehow, remains separate.


As we cannot control a fog but can walk into one, so it is with the Kingdom of God.


So where does this leave the "Outer Darkness"?


Obviously, it is not "within the Kingdom" (otherwise it would be the "inner Darkness") it is where His Kingdom isn't.



The Darkness is the world of the Atheist or Catlick's soul - an absence of God's love - an absence of an understanding of the Kingdom of Fog in which we can see so much more clearly.

There is a discussion whether the children of the kingdom are the children of the spiritual kingdom (the Body of Christ) or the physical kingdom (Israel).

I think I have settled that one.

But here it shouldn't matter,

It would matter if you wanted to know what God meant.

it says they are part of the good seed, not the bad seed.

God knows what He means and that is all that matters.

I absolutely agree with the explanation of Bob Wilkin.

As he agrees with me, so do I.

There we can see, if you are saved, but then lose everything but salvation at the Bema Seat, you're gonna be very frustrated having lost your treasures in eternity.

Ro:9:14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Ro:9:15: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Ro:9:16: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

There will be tears flowing in heaven, however, they are still already in the Millenium, just missing out several joys.

We can look on this as merely a game of cards, albeit a very serious one, in which you think you know the rules and then someone calls "Four of spades! I win" and takes the kitty.

That has ZERO to do with purgatory. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Nothing has anything to do with purgatory - it's a papist invention.

[Salmon_GOD]

Re: Proof that Purgatory is in the Bible

I see a lot of these "christians" get very offended when someone disagrees with them

[James Hutchins]

Re: Proof that Purgatory is in the Bible

I see a lot of these "christians" get very offended when someone disagrees with them

I suppose next you will be telling us you see dead people as well?
If people seem upset it is because they care. Would you rather they did not care and told you to go jump in a lake of fire?

[Thomas Taylor]

Re: Proof that Purgatory is in the Bible

I see a lot of these "christians" get very offended when someone disagrees with them

Son,


I don't care if you disagree with me. It is the fact that you disagree with God that gets me.


Romans 14:1 - Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, [but] not to doubtful disputations.


Stop disputing the facts and allow Him to enter you and fill you to overflowing. If you don't then I fear you will be tortured by Satan for eternity.


YIC
TT

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Proof that Purgatory is in the Bible

Evil people and sinners go to hell, and those who follow God's word, Believe in Jesus, and try to spread the Good Word go to heaven.

Originally Posted by Brother Gonzalez
Ok so you do agree that babies go to Hell if they die? Because the Bible says so.

Sadly, no, But I understand the consequences of not obeying EVERY word in the Bible, and I am willing to face them.

People who have never heard about Jesus could hardly try to spread the Good Word. What happens to those, I wondered? There was a half baked response from the papist who thinks that being completely unable to understand language or to follow God's Word somehow, through infant baptism, circumvent those requirements.

What about people who never heard about Jesus? What happens to them?

Actually babies that died early go to Heaven if they are baptized, but this is no longer necessary according to Pope Benedict XVI (who is still a pope even if he resigned), since is confirmed now that even unborn babies automatically go to Heaven.

In which case, what is the point of sprinkling babies at all? And what about babies that died early without baptism? What happens to those? And if a Romish explanation for babies or children or 116-year-olds who die never having heard about Jesus or the need for Salvation could be insinuated that would be of interest too.