[Enobarbus]

Re: Retards, will they go to heaven?

Thats my point, I don't understand your God. You cannot tell someone that he/she will understand once they are saved!! Because in order to be saved, you have to understand your God's Holy words!!
Understanding comes before believing. If you think its the other way around, then XY followers believe they are God's followers, why?? Because they believed everything they were told before they understood it.

Brother Temperance has already answered this, Shert, but labouring the point may not be a bad thing.

Do young children understand everything their parents tell them? No of course not. They simply have faith in their parents and trust their parents and believe in their parents when the parents tell them certain things are dangerous or bad. So must we be with God. God demands that we have faith in Him and trust him and believe in him. To demand that Almighty God prove himself to such relatively insignificant creatures as ourselves is an insult.

As Brother Temperance said, Shert, Faith is the key -- Faith.

[shert]

Re: Retards, will they go to heaven?

Sorry for replying late. I was out of town and I tried replying in the public library, but couldn't. Maybe the moderators here can solve this issue.

This is getting too long, so, let me summarize the points that I disagree or don't understand.

1 - You claim that your God is mercy full and forgiving. Your God accepts Homosexuals when they repent, this enforces your claim. On the other hand, person A whose great, great Grandfather is a bastard, will go to Hell no matter what!!
Now, I don't understand this kind of mercy and forgiveness. To forgive someone who CHOSE to sin is a great act, but not forgive someone who didn't have any involvement in the act is something that proves that God is not mercy full or forgiving. Or basically is selective.

2 - Freewill: You guys said that God knows who will go to Hell/Heaven before they are even born, I believe in that too. However, My God gives everyone multiple tries to believe in Him, He doesn't make them reject or believe in Him, they decide. My God basically knows the outcome, therefore, He knows who is going to Hell or Heaven. Your God sentence people to Hell just because one of his grandfathers or grandmothers is a bastard.
Some of you claimed that your God will make the souls who will enter Hell born as bastards, therefore, those people had no Freewill at all. God gave them NO chance at all, therefore, no Freewill because those bastards DIDN'T choose to be born bastards.
Some of you explained the above as sometimes we are affected by others actions. I agree with that. However, I don't agree that we get blamed for something we didn't commit or didn't play ANY role in. That is no justice at all.

3 - True Christian women don't get Raped, which means that True Christian women are "Rape Proof"!! I suggested a test for True Christian women to go to dangerous neighborhoods at night to see if they would get raped as a test of Faith. However, Brother Temperance said that you guys are not allowed to test God. That, also, makes me believe that no True Christians test God, or any women who go to dangerous neighborhoods at night are not True Christian.
In short, no True Christians get raped. AND, no True Christians do anything that leads to a rape. Which is something I don't understand!! Does the bible explain ALL acts that lead to a rape??
Question: What if a sister X gets raped. Sister X is identified by all pastors as a True Christian. Sister X didn't do anything wrong. She was living her normal life, and she got raped. What happens to her??

4 - About Chinese people going to Hell because they never believed in God.
In my belief: If someone didn't get a fair chance to believe in God, then this person will not go to Hell. If the Chinese people hear about God in the News all the time and never chose to believe in Him, then they will go to Hell. If they never heard oh Him, then they will not go to Hell.

5 - About understanding God: I am not asking what is God made of, or how big is God?? I am basically identifying two contradicting actions made by God, and raised a question. Read point 1 for the two contradicting actions and the raised question.
Again, if everyone believed with no questions, then EVERY SINGLE religion in the world is true. Religion X can say "You should eat babies every 1st Monday of even months", why, because their God "Said So". If the followers ask questions, we hit them with, and I quote your reasoning:
" Do young children understand everything their parents tell them? No of course not. They simply have faith in their parents and trust their parents and believe in their parents when the parents tell them certain things are dangerous or bad. So must we be with God. God demands that we have faith in Him and trust him and believe in him. To demand that Almighty God prove himself to such relatively insignificant creatures as ourselves is an insult.

As Brother Temperance said, Shert, Faith is the key -- Faith."

6 - As some of you might accuse of eating babies, the example in point 5 is just an EXAMPLE. It is similar to the "Changing expiring date" example.

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: Retards, will they go to heaven?

Okay, to save time because "this is getting too long":

Your problem is with God, not us. God is not "our God" or "your God". God is God. We are but humble servants of the Lord, who follow the Holy Bible literally, as has been explained to you ad infinitum. We do not try and cherry-pick or put a spin on any aspect of God's Word, like most so-called Christians. If you don't like our beliefs, then I can only advise you to take it up with God Himself.

Although I don't advise it. God takes a dim view of those who want to alter His commandments.

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

The sooner you accept Jesus and follow the ENTIRE Holy Bible, then the sooner you can get your life back on track.

[Brother Temperance]

Re: Retards, will they go to heaven?

Sorry for replying late. I was out of town and I tried replying in the public library, but couldn't. Maybe the moderators here can solve this issue.

This is getting too long, so, let me summarize the points that I disagree or don't understand.

1 - You claim that your God is mercy full and forgiving. Your God accepts Homosexuals when they repent, this enforces your claim. On the other hand, person A whose great, great Grandfather is a bastard, will go to Hell no matter what!!
Now, I don't understand this kind of mercy and forgiveness. To forgive someone who CHOSE to sin is a great act, but not forgive someone who didn't have any involvement in the act is something that proves that God is not mercy full or forgiving. Or basically is selective.

As we have already said, how could you ever understand the Almighty God? It would be supreme arrogance to even attempt to do so. Yes, God is very selective. He is God, and that is His privilege.

2 - Freewill: You guys said that God knows who will go to Hell/Heaven before they are even born, I believe in that too. However, My God gives everyone multiple tries to believe in Him, He doesn't make them reject or believe in Him, they decide. My God basically knows the outcome, therefore, He knows who is going to Hell or Heaven. Your God sentence people to Hell just because one of his grandfathers or grandmothers is a bastard.

Your "god" is a contradiction wrapped up in a paradox. How can He give everyone multiple tries to believe in Him, if He knows in advance that they're going to Heaven or Hell? There doesn't seem to be much room for free will in there.

3 - True Christian women don't get Raped, which means that True Christian women are "Rape Proof"!! I suggested a test for True Christian women to go to dangerous neighborhoods at night to see if they would get raped as a test of Faith. However, Brother Temperance said that you guys are not allowed to test God. That, also, makes me believe that no True Christians test God, or any women who go to dangerous neighborhoods at night are not True Christian.
In short, no True Christians get raped. AND, no True Christians do anything that leads to a rape. Which is something I don't understand!! Does the bible explain ALL acts that lead to a rape??
Question: What if a sister X gets raped. Sister X is identified by all pastors as a True Christian. Sister X didn't do anything wrong. She was living her normal life, and she got raped. What happens to her??

You can provide as many impossible hypotheses as you like, the rest of us will just keep living in the real world, thank you very much.

4 - About Chinese people going to Hell because they never believed in God.
In my belief: If someone didn't get a fair chance to believe in God, then this person will not go to Hell. If the Chinese people hear about God in the News all the time and never chose to believe in Him, then they will go to Hell. If they never heard oh Him, then they will not go to Hell.

Is there anything in God's Word to support this belief? Anything whatsoever? How about just anything outside your own demented imagination? Anything there? Anything at all?
God is very clear about this:
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

And how about a little John 3?
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

If you don't believe in Jesus, you are condemned, full stop. Ignorance is no excuse.

5 - About understanding God: I am not asking what is God made of, or how big is God?? I am basically identifying two contradicting actions made by God, and raised a question. Read point 1 for the two contradicting actions and the raised question.
Again, if everyone believed with no questions, then EVERY SINGLE religion in the world is true. Religion X can say "You should eat babies every 1st Monday of even months", why, because their God "Said So". If the followers ask questions, we hit them with, and I quote your reasoning:
" Do young children understand everything their parents tell them? No of course not. They simply have faith in their parents and trust their parents and believe in their parents when the parents tell them certain things are dangerous or bad. So must we be with God. God demands that we have faith in Him and trust him and believe in him. To demand that Almighty God prove himself to such relatively insignificant creatures as ourselves is an insult.

As Brother Temperance said, Shert, Faith is the key -- Faith."

6 - As some of you might accuse of eating babies, the example in point 5 is just an EXAMPLE. It is similar to the "Changing expiring date" example.

So you deny the need for any kind of trust or Faith whatsoever? What a very strange religion you follow.

[OnYourKnees]

Re: Retards, will they go to heaven?

1 - You claim that your God is mercy full and forgiving. Your God accepts Homosexuals when they repent, this enforces your claim. On the other hand, person A whose great, great Grandfather is a bastard, will go to Hell no matter what!!

Now, I don't understand this kind of mercy and forgiveness. To forgive someone who CHOSE to sin is a great act, but not forgive someone who didn't have any involvement in the act is something that proves that God is not mercy full or forgiving. Or basically is selective.

See #2.

2 - Freewill: You guys said that God knows who will go to Hell/Heaven before they are even born, I believe in that too. However, My God gives everyone multiple tries to believe in Him, He doesn't make them reject or believe in Him, they decide. My God basically knows the outcome, therefore, He knows who is going to Hell or Heaven. Your God sentence people to Hell just because one of his grandfathers or grandmothers is a bastard.

Actually, that's exactly what we believe. I fail to see why, when you state that you believe the same as we do, that you can't carry it the extra step further and see why it's more efficient and far more merciful for God to let the condemned souls be born to bastard bodies. They know up front, from day one, that they aren't going to Heaven.

Do you consider it just and merciful to instill false hope? After all, these "multiple chances" of which you speak being carried out don't mean anything when God already knows the outcome before the person is even conceived.

God knows now whether you will have great-grandchildren, and which (if any) of them will go to Heaven. He knows every choice they will ever make.

4 - About Chinese people going to Hell because they never believed in God.
In my belief: If someone didn't get a fair chance to believe in God, then this person will not go to Hell. If the Chinese people hear about God in the News all the time and never chose to believe in Him, then they will go to Hell. If they never heard oh Him, then they will not go to Hell.

Please show us where the Bible supports your belief. Where did this odd belief come from?

6 - As some of you might accuse of eating babies, the example in point 5 is just an EXAMPLE. It is similar to the "Changing expiring date" example.

Please don't eat babies. You'll turn into a Wiccan.

[SalvationSeeker]

Re: Retards, will they go to heaven?

4 - About Chinese people going to Hell because they never believed in God.
In my belief: If someone didn't get a fair chance to believe in God, then this person will not go to Hell. If the Chinese people hear about God in the News all the time and never chose to believe in Him, then they will go to Hell. If they never heard oh Him, then they will not go to Hell.

Ingorance of, or knowledge of, Gods Holy laws is no excuse if you do not do them!
If they have not heard of Christ so that they can believe in Him, then they shall still perish!
THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED, WHATEVER THEY KNOW THE LAW OR NOT! (Romans 2:13-15)

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Romans :12-13

[shert]

Re: Retards, will they go to heaven?

Again, sorry for a late reply. I could only post using my Internet at office, maybe the moderators here could fix this problem.

Brother Temperance:
1- I am not questioning God, I am just seeing two contradictory acts and I placed a question. The only answer I got from you guys is "We know it seems unfair" && "You will understand once you are Saved!!". It would be ignorant of anyone to see these contradictions and not say anything!! Now, if these contradictions are only in my head, please explain them to me.

2- My God doesn't sentence people to Hell without giving them a chance. My God knows the outcome only. When person X goes to Hell, he goes there because he got a chance or two and refused God, therefore he deserves to be punished for COMMITTING something with his OWN WILL.
In your case, person X goes to Hell because of something he never did or he never knew about!! Actually, person X could be you or anyone of your True Christian friends since its kinda stupid to see someone claiming that he knows his GREAT grandfather or grandmother is not a bastard since conceiving a child outside of marriage is not something people can find out, especially if its +300 years ago!!

3- If you are following a True Religion, then you could answer all questions directed to you. A religion made by God has all the answers, but a religion made by humans is full of contradictions and you can cripple this religion with a few hypotheses.

4- Again, I don't follow Christianity. If you ask me to prove my point from my own book, then I could prove to you a lot of things. Even the religion that eats babies can prove its right, if you want them to prove it using their own books.
Friend, we are here talking about common sense. Again read point 1 to understand why the Chinese people don't get to Hell if they never heard of God, thats in my belief of course.

A question came to my mind: I never read your bible cover-to-cover, but I know for sure that there were many prophets sent by your God before Jesus. My question is: Do they go to Hell or Heaven?? Jesus was sent way after they died!!

5- Friend, I don't deny Faith. But I refuse to believe in something that you guys, True Christians, say "It seems unfair!!". Or believe in something so contradicting to the point that leaves people speechless and staring at the wall for a moment thinking to themselves "Why would people believe in such a thing!!"

OnYourKnees:
The extra step you talked about in your post is what changes Fairness to No Justice at all.
The extra step you are talking about is judging people for something they never committed. I don't see why you call this mercy!!
My God knows who is going to Hell or Heaven because he knows the outcome of their "challenge", if there was no challenge, then what do you base your judgment on??

I don't follow the bible, so I cannot support my beliefs from it.

Also, What made these condemned souls you mentioned so condemned??

[OnYourKnees]

Re: Retards, will they go to heaven?

OnYourKnees:
The extra step you talked about in your post is what changes Fairness to No Justice at all.
The extra step you are talking about is judging people for something they never committed. I don't see why you call this mercy!!
My God knows who is going to Hell or Heaven because he knows the outcome of their "challenge", if there was no challenge, then what do you base your judgment on??

I don't follow the bible, so I cannot support my beliefs from it.

Also, What made these condemned souls you mentioned so condemned??

If God knows the outcome before He creates the soul that will end up in Hell -- something you believe -- then He condemns the soul by the act of creating it. By your "fairness" standards, it would seem He would have to ONLY create souls which He knew WOULD go to Heaven, otherwise He'd be cruel and unjust!

I fail to see why you believe it to be somehow more "fair" to give the condemned soul false chances, when God already KNOWS the outcome! That's just raising false hopes.

Now, what book do you base your beliefs on, since you don't follow the Bible?

[shert]

Re: Retards, will they go to heaven?

OnYourKnees:
Creating a soul is never a condemn. Being a condemned soul is the result of this soul wrong doings. I told you before, God doesn't want to condemn souls, He doesn't want to send people to Hell. Thats why He gives them multiple chances to redeem themselves. If they didn't, then its not God's fault they are burning in Hell.

False chances!!
Would you rather go to Hell because of something YOU chose to COMMIT, or something your great, great, great grandmother committed 200 years ago and you never EVEN knew about it!!
Its not a false hope. Its a fair chance, its you who chooses to do wrong or good. God doesn't make you do wrong or good, He just knows what you will do. Therefore, its you who makes it false hope or a chance to get to heaven.

To answer the question that you didn't answer "Also, What made these condemned souls you mentioned so condemned??"
In my religion, Islam, souls are condemned because of their OWN actions. Therefore, there is no condemned soul before its born or when its born. It is condemned after the person dies, because there is a chance to repent to the very end.

Do you understand now why EVERYONE is given a chance??

I am a Muslim who follows the Quran.

[OnYourKnees]

Re: Retards, will they go to heaven?

OnYourKnees:
Creating a soul is never a condemn. Being a condemned soul is the result of this soul wrong doings. I told you before, God doesn't want to condemn souls, He doesn't want to send people to Hell. Thats why He gives them multiple chances to redeem themselves. If they didn't, then its not God's fault they are burning in Hell.

False chances!!
Would you rather go to Hell because of something YOU chose to COMMIT, or something your great, great, great grandmother committed 200 years ago and you never EVEN knew about it!!
Its not a false hope. Its a fair chance, its you who chooses to do wrong or good. God doesn't make you do wrong or good, He just knows what you will do. Therefore, its you who makes it false hope or a chance to get to heaven.

To answer the question that you didn't answer "Also, What made these condemned souls you mentioned so condemned??"
In my religion, Islam, souls are condemned because of their OWN actions. Therefore, there is no condemned soul before its born or when its born. It is condemned after the person dies, because there is a chance to repent to the very end.

Do you understand now why EVERYONE is given a chance??

I am a Muslim who follows the Quran.

Actually, my answer was explaining WHY those souls are condemned.

Do you really understand omnscience? That means that God knows all past, present, and ALL FUTURE. That means that before God created the universe, He knew full well that He would condemn the vast majority of His creation to eternal punishment because His humans would not be able to live up to His laws.

If God -- or your Allah -- knows that a particular soul will be condemned to Hell, yet creates it anyway, please explain to me how that is He not condemning it to Hell by creating it? I say He is.

If I create a baking dish out of plastic explosive and give it to someone to cook dinner in over a gas flame, I have intentionally caused an explosion. I can't say, "Well, I didn't realize that Jennifer would actually bake something in it," and absolve myself of guilt. By the same logic, if God creates a soul that He already knows will be condemned to Hell, then He has condemned it by creating it.

God (or Allah) cannot "hope" for anything, as God knows all outcomes in advance. "Wanting" people to come to Him is purely a human conceit. God knows before you're born exactly what you will do and what will happen to you.

God created Hell to punish those who sin, because He knew His creation would require eternal punishment for failure to meet His standards. The same applies to your Allah.

Unless you can explain some way that your Allah is different?

[shert]

Re: Retards, will they go to heaven?

God (or Allah) cannot "hope" for anything, as God knows all outcomes in advance. "Wanting" people to come to Him is purely a human conceit. God knows before you're born exactly what you will do and what will happen to you.

God created Hell to punish those who sin, because He knew His creation would require eternal punishment for failure to meet His standards. The same applies to your Allah.

Unless you can explain some way that your Allah is different?

I will comment on the last two paragraphs because its something I actually agree with you, but not completely.

Our God hopes and wants because he loves us, but he cannot reward us for something we didn't do or not punish us when we choose to sin!! I am saying He cannot, because He sat many rules and it would be pure wrong if He Himself start breaking the rules.

Other than this point I mentioned above, I agree with what you said COMPLETELY.

BUT back to our main point:
You said: God created Hell to punish those who sin.
Please explain to me what sin those bastards, that your God send to Hell, committed??

From my understanding from previous messages:
1- The sin they committed is being born bastards!!
2- Others actions affect us!!
3- God will only make the condemned souls be born as bastards!!
4- We don't understand God's ways, Have FAITH.

Let me save some time and respond briefly to the above reasonings provided by some of you:
1 - This contradicts with what you said, because being a bastard is a sin they didn't play ANY role in, they might not even know that their grandmother is a bastard.
2- I agree, but we shouldn't be blamed and punished for their actions, especially if we didn't play any role in, or DIDN'T EVEN EXIST WHEN THE SIN HAPPENED!!
3- The bastards have no free will at all and God is punishing them without giving them any chance.
4- Thats what the religion that makes its followers eat babies says!! Have Faith and disregard ALL common sense is what everyone sees when you say "HAVE FAITH" about this issue.

[bonzo2 (On Moderation)]

Re: Retards, will they go to heaven?

Well I would go by Leviticus 21??

Whosoever hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God. ... Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries.

Surely Mongies are "blemished".

Do these faces look GLORY bound to you? I don't think they do...but what do I know... I am merely a woman.

With Lve and compassion, Sister Thumper

The law of cause and effect is basic, fundamental and unalterable because you can reap only what you have sown. Effect must follow cause with mathematical accuracy; it cannot be otherwise. In turn the effect becomes the cause by which another effect is set into motion, producing another cause. The process is a constant one. (Silver Birch)

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: Retards, will they go to heaven?

The law of cause and effect is basic, fundamental and unalterable because you can reap only what you have sown. Effect must follow cause with mathematical accuracy; it cannot be otherwise. In turn the effect becomes the cause by which another effect is set into motion, producing another cause. The process is a constant one. (Silver Birch)

Ezekiel 25:17 And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.

Psalm 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

[SalvationSeeker]

Re: Retards, will they go to heaven?

The law of cause and effect is basic, fundamental and unalterable because you can reap only what you have sown.

So atleast you admit that tards brought it on themselves?
Praise! Maybe there is yet hope for you.

[Rev. Dr. Davidson]

Re: Retards, will they go to heaven?

The law of cause and effect is basic, fundamental and unalterable because you can reap only what you have sown. Effect must follow cause with mathematical accuracy; it cannot be otherwise. In turn the effect becomes the cause by which another effect is set into motion, producing another cause. The process is a constant one. (Silver Birch)

According to your arguments here, those who are beautiful are with virtue, and those that are without are not. This is an error. When the antichrist comes, he will be beautiful, and will tell people beautiful things in which to believe. Within he will be ugly and deformed.

The old saying, "As outside, so within," is one of the errors the cathylicks preach. Perhaps you should read your Gandi book more closely. It advocates following a beautiful person because they have abviously done beautiful things.