[Helper]

Re: Christian Domestic Discipline

If you've been cleansed of all sin, does that mean you're a) with sin, or b) without sin? Think carefully.

Read the bible Brother.


1 John 1:8
King James Bible
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us
.
Ecclesiastes 7:20King James Version (KJV)

20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.




You have lied.

Not one of us can claim we are without sin while still proclaiming God's word.

[Helper]

Re: Christian Domestic Discipline

Mercy me, but that brings back such bittersweet memories of the dearly departed Missus.

You are cruel and unmerciful.
Luke 6:36 - Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Matthew 5:7 - Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy


Luke 6:37 - Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:


Be merciful to your wife, and God shall have mercy on you.
Do not condemn others, and God shall not condemn you.
Forgive others, and God shall forgive you.

[Mister Brasil]

Re: Christian Domestic Discipline

Those are beautiful passages, Helper.

I wonder how you reconcile them with other passages raised on this forum. Passages to which you consistently fail to respond.

One way might be to to take the soft position that parts of the Bible are valid and parts are not. Most take this route, and thus deny God, Whose Word is complete and correct.

The other way would be to acknowledge that, through the use of corporal punishment, we are demonstrating the exact love and mercy God demands of us. Not the short-term, easy, seductive, modern love, but long-term, difficult love.

[Titus Templeton]

Re: Christian Domestic Discipline

Feels good reading this thread while my wife cuts my toenails.
I just can't reach them myself. You really have to be athletic to do that. Or be a woman.

[Helper]

Re: Christian Domestic Discipline

Those are beautiful passages, Helper.

I wonder how you reconcile them with other passages raised on this forum. Passages to which you consistently fail to respond.

One way might be to to take the soft position that parts of the Bible are valid and parts are not. Most take this route, and thus deny God, Whose Word is complete and correct.

The other way would be to acknowledge that, through the use of corporal punishment, we are demonstrating the exact love and mercy God demands of us. Not the short-term, easy, seductive, modern love, but long-term, difficult love.

Show me the bible verse that says it is righteous for a man to beat his wife.


The bible says a man should love his wife as himself.
Would he beat himself at every tiny mistake?
Would he use himself as a house slave?
Would he punish himself severely for tiny mistakes?




Unless you're beating yourself up for every mistake you make, you should not beat your wife up for hers.
That is the bible.


Again.
Give me a verse that says otherwise.

[Mister Brasil]

Re: Christian Domestic Discipline

The bible says a man should love his wife as himself.
Would he beat himself at every tiny mistake?
Would he use himself as a house slave?
Would he punish himself severely for tiny mistakes?

I don't do those things to myself. God, in His benevolence, does those things to me.

I agree that a man should love his wife as himself. That includes subjecting his wife to punishments that God in His love extends to man.

Because God has set the husband up as the head of the wife. In exactly the same way that Jesus is the head of the church. God has given us this responsibility.

Ephesians 5:22-24:

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

I don't want to drown you in quotes. But let's be clear: that instruction is repeated. Maybe God thought somebody would miss it.

As Christians, we are commanded to love each other. We are all made in God's image. If we are saved, we all partake of Abraham's blessing. None of that implies that I should let my children run around engaging in whatever sinful fancy takes them. Nor, my wife.

Just as when I sin, God punishes me; just as when my children sin, I beat them; so, when my wife sins, I must beat her. At least, to the extent permitted by local law, and, yes, we're working on that. It doesn't matter what the current fashion is. It doesn't matter that you find it horrifying. What matters is that I love Jesus Christ.

[Helper]

Re: Christian Domestic Discipline

I don't do those things to myself. God, in His benevolence, does those things to me.

I agree that a man should love his wife as himself. That includes subjecting his wife to punishments that God in His love extends to man.

Because God has set the husband up as the head of the wife. In exactly the same way that Jesus is the head of the church. God has given us this responsibility.

Ephesians 5:22-24:
I don't want to drown you in quotes. But let's be clear: that instruction is repeated. Maybe God thought somebody would miss it.

As Christians, we are commanded to love each other. We are all made in God's image. If we are saved, we all partake of Abraham's blessing. None of that implies that I should let my children run around engaging in whatever sinful fancy takes them. Nor, my wife.

Just as when I sin, God punishes me; just as when my children sin, I beat them; so, when my wife sins, I must beat her. At least, to the extent permitted by local law, and, yes, we're working on that. It doesn't matter what the current fashion is. It doesn't matter that you find it horrifying. What matters is that I love Jesus Christ.

Oh really?
And say, what horrify beatings does God give you?
Or do you repent and suddenly your sins are forgiven?


When you repent unto God, Christ, or the Holy Spirit, God loves you so much that he forgives you and doesn't punish you.
Christ went so far as to let the world crucify him, and didn't punish them.
On the cross, he cried out "My father forgive them."
Forgive them.
Don't punish them.
There is a difference between too harsh of a punishment, and discipline.
You need to discipline your children, while still showing Christ's love.
You don't need to beat the shit out of them. Because Christ didn't beat the shit out of you.

[Basilissa]

Re: Christian Domestic Discipline

There is a difference between too harsh of a punishment, and discipline.
You need to discipline your children, while still showing Christ's love.
You don't need to beat the shit out of them. Because Christ didn't beat the shit out of you.

Just out of curiosity: the existence of Hell, where billions of souls, include those who never had the chance to hear about Jesus in their lifetimes, will burn and suffer for eternity, is that too harsh of a punishment, or just discipline?

If the latter, then why would a beating be worse than that?

You do realize that the blueness of the wound cleanses the evil (Proverbs 20:30), right?

[Mister Brasil]

Re: Christian Domestic Discipline

And say, what horrify beatings does God give you?

Do you want to see the scars?

There is nothing in this world that God did not make.

Proverbs 16:4:

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Did someone tell you that God intends for your dreams to come true in this world? In the next.

Isaiah 45:7:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Have you read Job? You should read Job.

As our Father, God punishes us because He loves us.

Hebrews 12: 5-7:

And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Do you imagine that Jesus saves you from the scourge?

Luke 12: 47-48:

And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.
For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Jesus saves you (well, not you) from death, not the scourge.

[Helper]

Re: Christian Domestic Discipline

Do you want to see the scars?

There is nothing in this world that God did not make.

Proverbs 16:4:
Did someone tell you that God intends for your dreams to come true in this world? In the next.

Isaiah 45:7:
Have you read Job? You should read Job.

As our Father, God punishes us because He loves us.

Hebrews 12: 5-7:
Do you imagine that Jesus saves you from the scourge?

Luke 12: 47-48:Jesus saves you (well, not you) from death, not the scourge.

No. Nobody told me that.
Why did you even mention it?


I have read Job.
If you remember, that was God giving Satan permission to test him.
That was not punishment.
God said so himself.
Reread it again, and then you can try telling me what it means.


Jesus saves you from the ultimate punishment.
Likewise, he didn't beat sinners.
He didn't tell them they were going to hell.
He told them "Go and sin no more"
He forgave them.
He healed them.
He cast out demons.
He told the pharisees, the people TRYING TO PUNISH others, that they were a bunch of wicked hypocrites.


Which part am I missing?


Again.
What verse gives a man permission to beat his wife?
You are avoiding giving me this verse.

[Helper]

Re: Christian Domestic Discipline

Stuff

You should be merciful unto your children and your wife.
King James Version
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.


You should be loving to your wife.
He died without ever laying a hand on them.


King James Bible
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;


1 Peter 3:7-9King James Version (KJV)

7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

[Mister Brasil]

Re: Christian Domestic Discipline

You should be merciful unto your children and your wife.

See, this is what you've always done here. You shrink back into your modern conceptions and ignore what the Bible says. You imagine antonyms where none exist. You try to work the Word against Itself, imagining It splintered with contradiction.

There is no contradiction. I am merciful. I do love. I honor, and pity, and am compassionate. That is why I punish, as God instructs. As God loves.

[Helper]

Re: Christian Domestic Discipline

See, this is what you've always done here. You shrink back into your modern conceptions and ignore what the Bible says. You imagine antonyms where none exist. You try to work the Word against Itself, imagining It splintered with contradiction.

There is no contradiction. I am merciful. I do love. I honor, and pity, and am compassionate. That is why I punish, as God instructs. As God loves.

Tell me the verse where it says to punish your wife.
Lest, you're a deceiver and a liar, as well as a false prophet.
You accuse me of finding things that don't exist.
Hypocrite!
Find me what you keep claiming to exist, yet fail to provide scripture for.
If you can't do it in the next post, then you are little more then a liar twisting the word as an excuse to abuse your family.

[Helper]

Re: Christian Domestic Discipline

See, this is what you've always done here. You shrink back into your modern conceptions and ignore what the Bible says. You imagine antonyms where none exist. You try to work the Word against Itself, imagining It splintered with contradiction.

There is no contradiction. I am merciful. I do love. I honor, and pity, and am compassionate. That is why I punish, as God instructs. As God loves.

And no.
I am not the one ignoring what the bible says.
I have repeatedly asked for a verse to back up what you are claiming, and you have failed to supply one.
On top of that, I have repeatedly given multiple bible verses, yet you accuse me of ignoring it.


You are little more then a hypocrite.

[Basilissa]

Re: Christian Domestic Discipline

I have read Job.
If you remember, that was God giving Satan permission to test him.
That was not punishment.
God said so himself.
Reread it again, and then you can try telling me what it means.

It's one of my favorite books of the Holy Bible. As you say, it was not a punishment. God allowed Satan to kill Job's family and to make him sick just for the fun of the bet that God made with Satan.

So here we have God allowing Job to suffer for no apparent reason, just out of boredom. Of course it paid of for Job to keep praising God despite this obvious injustice, as God eventually repaid him for his faithfulness with even better wife and children than the ones he had before.

In comparison, the punishment inflicted by the head of the family is done for a reason: it's done out of love and for correction.

Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Jesus saves you from the ultimate punishment.
Likewise, he didn't beat sinners.
He didn't tell them they were going to hell.
He told them "Go and sin no more"
He forgave them.
He healed them.
He cast out demons.
He told the pharisees, the people TRYING TO PUNISH others, that they were a bunch of wicked hypocrites.

And those who do not accept Him as their Savior, no matter how good lives they lead, are destined to be punished in Hell forever. Even those who dedicated their entire lives to helping others, if they were atheists or believers of other religions, there is no mercy for them but eternal punishment.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You should be merciful unto your children and your wife.
King James Version
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

You should be loving to your wife.

And the Bible teaches us that harsh beating is merciful - because it helps to save the eternal soul of an individual:

Proverbs 19:18 Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.

Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness [is] bound in the heart of a child; [but] the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

He died without ever laying a hand on them.

But He will lay His hand on all unbelievers, punishing them in Hell for eternity.