[Khorne]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

Like everything else, He created it.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.--Isaiah 45:7

And in the future, you will show proper respect by capitalizing God. Otherwise, some of that "darkness" might come your way.

Capeesch?

excuse me

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

Khorne: "How did god know what good and evil whas ? he whas the first and only"

He based the moral system He divulges in the Bible on His own innate qualities, I imagine.

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians 1:16,17

God is before all things, but by him all things consist: ie, the moral system which governs the universe consists by God. If there is nothing before or higher than God, then His nature must be what defines good and evil.

Note that the moral system put forth in the Bible binds mankind, but it does not bind God. God is the lawgiver. Just as the parent makes rules for little children -- don't drive the car -- but is not bound by those same rules, so God makes laws for man but is not Himself bound by those rules.

~~ OEJ

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

How did god know what good and evil whas ? he whas the first and only
So where did he based good and evil on

Like everything else, He created it.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.--Isaiah 45:7

And in the future, you will show proper respect by capitalizing God. Otherwise, some of that "darkness" might come your way.

Capeesch?

[Khorne]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

A proud atheist, eh?

So this is a challenge: explain the atheist understanding of good and evil, and how one arrives at that understanding.

~~ OEJ

How did god know what good and evil whas ? he whas the first and only
So where did he based good and evil on

[Born Again Bob]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Pretty easy to pick out the parts of the bible you like and ignore the parts you don't huh?

Dear Friend,

Not sure what your point is here. We embrace this part of the Bible, with all others. The Lord told his people to do something, and they did. Good for them.

Yours in Him,
bab

[Yhalothar]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

Numbers 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Pretty easy to pick out the parts of the bible you like and ignore the parts you don't huh?

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

“With or without [religion] you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.” -- Steven Weinberg, physicist and Nobel prizewinner.

Time, I think, for Christ!

What about the Beatitudes?

Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. Matthew 5:7

Indeed. The granting of mercy is one of the great cornerstones of human morality.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. Matthew 5:9

We could use a few more peacemakers in this century of blood.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. Matthew 5:38, 39

This rejects the "lefthand path" law of putting the individual first, of demanding justice in like injury: raping the rapist and torturing the torturer, as it were.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Matthew 5:43, 44

A pro-active teaching: if some men return good for evil society may be improved; if they always returns evil for evil then the plight of mankind does not improve. Wise indeed.

O my brethren, the Bible is a great and wondrous work. Open it and read therein! For mockers may laugh at it and serpents may abhor it, but truly it is a teaching to reckon with. The atheist in his lair, the agnostic in his catamitic dreams, the pagan laboring away at his orgy...seldom do the unbelievers honor what treasure lieth between the covers of the Book.

And I think old and flatulent Jack is just about done with this thread. Mine well hath run dry. I am much encouraged in my opinion of the young people who responded thoughtfully, however. May they be blessed!

~~ OEJ

[Celeste]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

"You misunderstand, i'm saying that we all get our morality from the same places. Atheist morality is not inferior or superior to theist morality..."

I must disagree. There is a fundamental difference.

I once debated a fellow named Vern, back when Landover was on another system of forums entirely. We were, I think, each other's nemesis. At one point I challenged him about Moses' slaughter of the Midianites, in which the Israelites killed everyone, even infants, except for the virgin girls (which they kept for themselves).

How, I asked, can what would in any context at all be considered a war crime be approved by a just and good moral system? How can a good and just God command His prophet and His people to do such a thing?

Vern's answer was: "God commanded it, and anything God does is all right with me."

That is the difference between a received and a constructed morality.

In a received moral system, the individual must adhere to the rules of the Authority...whether it is the Bible, the Communist Party, or Walmart. If he has internal reservations, he is ethically bound to overcome them, because his moral structure is based on acceptance of an external authority.

And as I mentioned above, in a constructed moral system the individual is obliged to work out his beliefs about good and evil for himself. (Interestingly, if he finds he has been mistaken, he is free to update his beliefs at any time. In a system of received morality changes are mandated by outside -- by an encyclical from the Pope, for instance, or by a new interpretation of the fundamental text...which usually results in a schism and yet another sect.)

-----

I sound like a devil's advocate, don't I. Well, from a Christian perspective the received morality of the Bible is perfect, and so there is no disadvantage to using it as a basis for a received morality. In fact, a perfect and divine document must be superior to a constructed morality.

Which is where Vern was coming from: One accepts war crimes and genocide because God's morality cannot be wrong.

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. 1 Timothy 6:20, 21

~~ OEJ

yess, a load of bullshit.
but the thing is
I can't be wrong
because God made me an atheist
and who are you, cowering ill-minded mortal, to question the judgement of an non existent fat bloke?

[Yhalothar]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

Well yea, "Good men do good deeds, evil men do evil deeds, but it takes religion for a good man to do evil deeds." Religion warps morality and has people justifying atrocities(like the slaugher of 42 children). But there is no moral benefit to following a religion

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

"You misunderstand, i'm saying that we all get our morality from the same places. Atheist morality is not inferior or superior to theist morality..."

I must disagree. There is a fundamental difference.

I once debated a fellow named Vern, back when Landover was on another system of forums entirely. We were, I think, each other's nemesis. At one point I challenged him about Moses' slaughter of the Midianites, in which the Israelites killed everyone, even infants, except for the virgin girls (which they kept for themselves).

How, I asked, can what would in any context at all be considered a war crime be approved by a just and good moral system? How can a good and just God command His prophet and His people to do such a thing?

Vern's answer was: "God commanded it, and anything God does is all right with me."

That is the difference between a received and a constructed morality.

In a received moral system, the individual must adhere to the rules of the Authority...whether it is the Bible, the Communist Party, or Walmart. If he has internal reservations, he is ethically bound to overcome them, because his moral structure is based on acceptance of an external authority.

And as I mentioned above, in a constructed moral system the individual is obliged to work out his beliefs about good and evil for himself. (Interestingly, if he finds he has been mistaken, he is free to update his beliefs at any time. In a system of received morality changes are mandated by outside -- by an encyclical from the Pope, for instance, or by a new interpretation of the fundamental text...which usually results in a schism and yet another sect.)

-----

I sound like a devil's advocate, don't I. Well, from a Christian perspective the received morality of the Bible is perfect, and so there is no disadvantage to using it as a basis for a received morality. In fact, a perfect and divine document must be superior to a constructed morality.

Which is where Vern was coming from: One accepts war crimes and genocide because God's morality cannot be wrong.

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. 1 Timothy 6:20, 21

~~ OEJ

[Celeste]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

hey, i have my reasons for thinking that good and evil is a human invention, but human's are a scientific invention.
have you read the bible?
it's highly inaccurate!
and written down years after events allegedly happened and then translated wrongly.
jesus christ, I'm shocked that intelligent people like yourselves follow the world's biggest scam.
xoxo

[Yhalothar]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

You misunderstand, i'm saying that we all get our morality from the same places. Atheist morality is not inferior or superior to theist morality, they are usually very similar to everything apart from homosexuals and things like that. As i've said, a look at the prison system shows this.

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

In the name of Christ I rebuke these youngsters for their ignorance!

God used bears as an example of His wrath, to be witnessed by man and heeded. D'oh. That is not especially hard to figure out.

----

One path to ethical atheism might be:

1. The atheist recognizes that the universe at large knows neither good nor evil. The tiger-organism kills and eats the child-organism: one organism lives, the other is broken down into its chemical constituents and digested. The event is no more evil or good than is the explosion of a star in the Lesser Magellanic Cloud or the collision of two atoms in the atmosphere over Jamaica.

2. The atheist realizes, however, that human values are valid -- indeed, essential -- to humanity. They are subjective and internal: no science can say whether a painting or a novel or a symphony is beautiful...but that does not mean beauty is an invalid concept, or that it does not exist. Similarly, good and evil are concepts which have a real existence in a human context.

3. However, the ethical atheist must also realize that just as he would not take his understanding of what music is beautiful and what music is not solely from teachers, society, or books, he must define good and evil in his own terms. He must do that as honestly and carefully as he can. His understanding may be informed by great writers, philosophers, teachers, and holy men; but the responsibility for creating his own internal moral beliefs lies with himself.

It troubles me that you write that an atheist takes his beliefs from "society". Remember that good Germans took their beliefs from German society, and helped build Dachau.

You are closer to the mark when you restate Jesus' Golden Rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, as "I don't go around killing people and stealing things because I wouldn't like to live in a world where people went around stealing and killing." That shows a beginning of independent ethical consciousness.

To get back to an earlier point, the ethical atheist might say, "Yes, I understand that the tiger who eats the child gets a full belly and so it it good for the tiger; but I am a human. And so I assert that the death of a child is evil...knowing full well that my assertion is, in universal terms, illogical! I am human, and I say the suffering and needless death of humans is evil."

One of course one extends such a statement to other beings -- the needless suffering of a tiger is evil, too. But we don't feed children to starving tigers in order to ease the tigers' suffering; we make a moral judgment and refrain.

I hope at some point you youngsters learn something about your own chosen belief system. It's one thing to be ignorant of others' beliefs, and something else to misunderstand or ignore the fundamental aspects of your own.

----

Naturally, while some false versions of Christianity find a place in Heaven for the "good pagan", that doctrine is utterly unbiblical. It is a FALSE DOCTRINE! The "ethical atheist" is doomed to Hell, where the flames burn eternally and the worm dieth not.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

Repent! Repent your sins, and throw yourselves upon the perfect mercy of the Christ!

~~ OEJ

[Yhalothar]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

Wow that didn't paste properly. I should of just posted a link, if someone could delete my last post that would be good. (Consummatum est. ~~ OEJ)

"You do care about "evidence".. As long as it supports what you say that is, but evidence to the contrary -
You discard it."

Oh really? Show me some.

"You obviously haven't read the Bible.. Try doing so before you yap away."

Apparently you havn't. At the time of the "flood" the estimated population is 30,000,000. Add that to this http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/godkills.htm
As you see at the top, alot of the killings can't be counted and are therefore left out.

[SalvationSeeker]

Re: I'm a proud atheist

Oh no i'm very openminded, your the closeminded one. Unfortunately for you only evidence is evidence.

What are you yapping about? You don't get to decide what's evidence.
You do care about "evidence".. As long as it supports what you say that is, but evidence to the contrary -
You discard it.

If it's a bear attack from god, then yes I would call it inefficient. Just like the other 32,000,000 of gods biblical killings, it's very inefficient.

You obviously haven't read the Bible.. Try doing so before you yap away.
And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up together with Korah, when that company died,
What time the fire devoured two hundred and fifty men: and they became a sign.
Numbers 26:10