[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

Dolores de Barriga;1168797]I dunno. Quite a lot of what we do to ourselves (wars, slavery, genocide, social and gender inequalities)...

You might have a point there, I can sometimes take a really dim view on humanity. The problem there is that it also that even those external forces were created by humanity.

I don't think I understand. Are you trying to suggest that religion is somehow necessary for ethics to exist? If this is your position, then I don't agree: it's the ethics of a society that influence religion, not vice versa. If not, then please clarify.

I agree with you that religion is not necessary for ethics to exist. My point was that ideas can be twisted.

Then why did you say that there was a balance? Maybe you just want there to be a balance, but looking at human history, I just don't see it.

Yea I can understand where you're coming from on that. There still has to be one for us to try to understand the other. Take light (day) and dark (night) as an example. Could we truly understand one without the presence of the other?

Good point, I can drink to that!

YAYS!!! I have a drinking buddy

You think that God healed you hand just to see you suffer? That's sort of sick, but I guess it actually fits well with the character of God of the Bible.

No I don't. I put that in there as example of something that science wasn't able to explain at this point. The nice thing about that example was that I at least had some sort of hard data to back it up. I'm not Christian. Believe me a lot of the stuff brought up here was stuff I questioned the Pastor about before I left the Church.

I have touched on that before, but the main difference between science and religion is that the former is not interested in Absolute Truth. Hence, sciences, including social science, have the ability to see through and correct own errors and biases. On the Origin of Species is not treated as The Truth, its contents have been subjected to scientific scrutiny and modifications over time.

Very true.

But what if there is no truth to be found? What if we are just an effect of some random mutations on an insignificant planet in a peripheral solar system of a small galaxy that nobody cares about?

If we are, I'm fine with that. I will die content with the knowledge that I did my best to try to make this world a better place. In my opinion the presence (or absence) of religion/spirituality, does not free someone of the responsibility to make the world a better place. I also believe that we need to do this without expectation of some sort of reward. A good action taken with expectation of a reward becomes selfish at best.


I enjoyed talking to you.

[Didymus Much]

Re: Hi All

...In a world without religion, we would probably just find something else to kill ourselves over...

God forbid we have the chance to find out.

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

Then why did you say that there was a balance? Maybe you just want there to be a balance, but looking at human history, I just don't see it.

Also beliefs in a balance doesn't negate my responsibility to work towards that. Sort of the whole be the change that you want to see perspective

[Roland]

Re: Hi All

God forbid we have the chance to find out.

I am pretty sure God had little to do with communism and (national) socialism. Those two ideologies were responsible for a lot of hardship and deaths. Just for the record.

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Hi All

You might have a point there, I can sometimes take a really dim view on humanity. The problem there is that it also that even those external forces were created by humanity.

Which is why I wouldn't call them external. Of course we people create our own hell on earth. The thing is, that in every situation of mass injustice you have massive amounts of people who pray to God to solve/end that crisis. Yet, He doesn't. Never. Ever. Not even once. It takes peoples to change the situation.

That could mean two things: 1) God doesn't care at all, 2) He doesn't exist. In both cases, why bother praying and worshiping?

I agree with you that religion is not necessary for ethics to exist. My point was that ideas can be twisted.

All kinds of ideas can be twisted. One point of comparison that I see between communism and Christianity is that both ideas look very well in ideal theory, but the practical application always turned out to be bloody and oppressive.

Yea I can understand where you're coming from on that. There still has to be one for us to try to understand the other. Take light (day) and dark (night) as an example. Could we truly understand one without the presence of the other?

I dunno, I try not to see the world in terms of sharp binary oppositions. It's usually more complex than that.

YAYS!!! I have a drinking buddy

I'll take a glass of Moscato.

No I don't. I put that in there as example of something that science wasn't able to explain at this point. The nice thing about that example was that I at least had some sort of hard data to back it up. I'm not Christian. Believe me a lot of the stuff brought up here was stuff I questioned the Pastor about before I left the Church.

While I cannot relate to your particular situation, I understand your struggle.

If we are, I'm fine with that. I will die content with the knowledge that I did my best to try to make this world a better place. In my opinion the presence (or absence) of religion/spirituality, does not free someone of the responsibility to make the world a better place.

Sure. The problem is the definition of a "better place" - most religious people will say that world would be a better place if everybody followed their religion, which they see as the only true religion. That sort of well-wishing thinking led to the destruction of thousands of languages and cultures by leading world religions, and it continues to this day through the work of missionaries in Central/South America, Africa, and other places. As an anthropologist, I see that "loving destruction" as even more dangerous and cruel than other forms of oppression.

[Didymus Much]

Re: Hi All

I am pretty sure God had little to do with communism and (national) socialism...

Omnipotence dictates responsibility. Even the Bible agrees with me on that.

...Those two ideologies were responsible for a lot of hardship and deaths. Just for the record.

That couldn't have anything to do with the fact that neither has ever been implemented outside of a totalitarian regime (which tend to not be peaceful and happy places to live, unless you're the one in charge)?

While I await your response, I'll sit here quietly and reflect on capitalism's historic focus on the health and well-being of its less advantaged citizens. Oops, I'm already done.

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

=Dolores de Barriga;1168806]Which is why I wouldn't call them external. Of course we people create our own hell on earth. The thing is, that in every situation of mass injustice you have massive amounts of people who pray to God to solve/end that crisis. Yet, He doesn't. Never. Ever. Not even once. It takes peoples to change the situation.

I understand what you mean there, and you're right over all. I just have one point. Sometimes praying to God/dess(s) or whatever might enable the person/people to take the steps to make the change. I know that sometimes when I'm doing my meditation work, sometimes I'll come up with insights that I didn't before. I don't know if it means there is a Higher Power(s) out there or not.

All kinds of ideas can be twisted. One point of comparison that I see between communism and Christianity is that both ideas look very well in ideal theory, but the practical application always turned out to be bloody and oppressive.

Even scientific ethics can be twisted. It seems like anything no matter how pure can be twisted, if someone really chooses to. Also sometimes people miss/don't know things, but this is part of the reason that science has to be self correcting. Ideally religion/spirituality should be the same.

I dunno, I try not to see the world in terms of sharp binary oppositions. It's usually more complex than that.

Very true. Generally in a face to face conversation I'm normally better at explaining some of this, but you're very right that the world is made up of shades of grey.

I'll take a glass of Moscato.

Good choice. I'm more of a whiskey drinker myself.

While I cannot relate to your particular situation, I understand your struggle.

Thank you and that's really all any of us can ask for.

Sure. The problem is the definition of a "better place" - most religious people will say that world would be a better place if everybody followed their religion, which they see as the only true religion. That sort of well-wishing thinking led to the destruction of thousands of languages and cultures by leading world religions, and it continues to this day through the work of missionaries in Central/South America, Africa, and other places. As an anthropologist, I see that "loving destruction" as even more dangerous and cruel than other forms of oppression.

I know what you mean there. I'm just not sure if it would be any better if we all had strictly a scientific view on things. I took a multi-cultural psychology class. It was a real struggle trying to come up with solutions that respected everyone, but it made me think.

[Roland]

Re: Hi All

Omnipotence dictates responsibility. Even the Bible agrees with me on that.

This is an invalid argument since we both don´t accept the Bible as truth.

That couldn't have anything to do with the fact that neither has ever been implemented outside of a totalitarian regime (which tend to not be peaceful and happy places to live, unless you're the one in charge)?

Cause and effect.

While I await your response, I'll sit here quietly and reflect on capitalism's historic focus on the health and well-being of its less advantaged citizens. Oops, I'm already done.

Is that somewhat of a straw man argument you are making there?

Kind regards, Roland

[Didymus Much]

Re: Hi All

This is an invalid argument since we both don´t accept the Bible as truth...

Caught me.

...That couldn't have anything to do with the fact that neither has ever been implemented outside of a totalitarian regime (which tend to not be peaceful and happy places to live, unless you're the one in charge)?...

...Cause and effect...

What?

...While I await your response, I'll sit here quietly and reflect on capitalism's historic focus on the health and well-being of its less advantaged citizens. Oops, I'm already done...

...Somewhat of a straw man argument there?

Yes, but as you offered no alternative, I went with the obvious.

[Roland]

Re: Hi All

[...]
Yes, but as you offered no alternative, I went with the obvious.

I was not aware that I had to give an alternative to something I was not even aware of.

Edit: Sorry Locus for polluting your thread.

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

I was not aware that I had to give an alternative to something I was not even aware of.

Edit: Sorry Locus for polluting your thread.

It's fine, I've been enjoying looking at both of your ideas.

[Didymus Much]

Re: Hi All

I was not aware that I had to give an alternative to something I was not even aware of.

I read more into your statement about communism and national socialism than was there, apparently. Sorry for the confusion, and sorry to the ladies for interrupting their absolutely riveting discussion of the most vapid, bland, ego-stroking spirituality I'm sure the members of Landover have had to yawn through in a while (well, this week, at least), please, carry on.

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

It's fine, I've been enjoying looking at both of your ideas.

Hmmm apparently I've sprouted a Bible verse at the end of my posts.

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: Hi All

Hmmm apparently I've sprouted a Bible verse at the end of my posts.

One you would do well to read and obey.

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

I read more into your statement about communism and national socialism than was there, apparently. Sorry for the confusion, and sorry to the ladies for interrupting their absolutely riveting discussion of the most vapid, bland, ego-stroking spirituality I'm sure the members of Landover have had to yawn through in a while (well, this week, at least), please, carry on.

No worries, you're fine. Awww your sarcasm is noted, I'm glad you've enjoyed reading it.