[Billy Bob Jenkins]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

The decision has already been made. We can't decide. "There is only what God decides". We have no free will. I have no free will to decide to obey or to disobey God. "There is only what God decides."

What's more, absolutely no one can be "willing to forsake the Bible's important lessons" because no one has any will with which to be willing.

I'm not going to argue about it. You want to have it both ways.

No.

We have a will, just not a free one. You can make decisions, but only the decisions that you are predestined to make. If you are not predestined to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, then you are predestined for Hell. Get it?

[Bible Student]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

Well, for that matter I "might" be an angel sent here to test you. However, I am neither one of those things. I'm just another flesh and blood human being born to a mother and father who, themselves, were born to mothers and fathers. In fact, my mother has spent a lot of her retirement researching our lineage, and she's found that we've descended from other human beings for at least 430 years. So I'm pretty confident that only human mothers and fathers are in my ancestry or were involved in my conception.

Exactly how many mothers and fathers do you think were involved in your conception? Usually it is one of each.

[EveningStarNM]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

So are you ready to accept Jesus Christ as your personal LORD and Savior now???

Jesus will be so pleased with us!!!

Luke 15:7
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

I'm sorry, but I came here to try to understand what you folks were saying. But then Pastor Sampson said that we have no free will and that only what God decides matters. Then he said that we can "will" to ignore the Bible, and now you want me to decide to accept Jesus Christ as my "savior".

And no one has explained to me why I would need to. I'm convinced that I don't need to.

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

And THEN he had the nerve to give me an infraction for "Twisting Scripture to make it sound internally contradictory" when it was HE who was being contradictory. I didn't say that the Bible contradicted itself. I said that HE contradicted HIMSELF. Besides, folks around here seem to be pretty unfriendly, and I'm getting pretty darned tired of all of these infractions that people are giving me. I won't say that my experience here hasn't been useful or beneficial to me, because it has.

I am VERY glad that I came here. I mean that sincerely. I wish you all well, and success in your endeavors.

Thank you very much.

And if someone sees Sister Pamela around, please tell her that she is my newest hero. I hope that she is safe and well.



Now, I have to get back to work.

[EveningStarNM]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

More like when we read. There are too many false Christians running around out there who are willing to forsake the Bible's important lessons about such things as homosexuality, in favor for what they think God wants from them. They substitute that voice over Bible study.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

You just got done saying:

There is no free will. There is only what God decides. Only those who are predestined get into Heaven.

The decision has already been made. We can't decide. "There is only what God decides". We have no free will. I have no free will to decide to obey or to disobey God. "There is only what God decides."

What's more, absolutely no one can be "willing to forsake the Bible's important lessons" because no one has any will with which to be willing.

I'm not going to argue about it. You want to have it both ways.

No.

[Jedediah]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

Yes, verses 16-18, in particular, do seem to be very clear. It's not our desire or anything that we do that matters. It all depends on what God decides.

That seems to settle the matter.

Hmm. There doesn't seem to be anything left to talk about.

So are you ready to accept Jesus Christ as your personal LORD and Savior now???

Jesus will be so pleased with us!!!

Luke 15:7
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

[Pastor William Nathaniel Sampson]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

Yes, verses 16-18, in particular, do seem to be very clear. It's not our desire or anything that we do that matters. It all depends on what God decides.

That seems to settle the matter.

Hmm. There doesn't seem to be anything left to talk about.

Tell the Turks everything is solid here, sir.

[EveningStarNM]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

But maybe you are. Read Romans 9 and get back to us.

There is no free will. There is only what God decides. Only those who are predestined get into Heaven.

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Yes, verses 16-18, in particular, do seem to be very clear. It's not our desire or anything that we do that matters. It all depends on what God decides.

That seems to settle the matter.

Hmm. There doesn't seem to be anything left to talk about.

[Pastor William Nathaniel Sampson]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

Now THAT I understand! Thank you! I've earned my living in the computer trade for thirty years, and I have to say that is an excellent analogy. And I am certain that we can't possibly understand God without God's help. Fortunately, God is always there when we need understanding. We just have to be willing to listen, right?

More like when we read. There are too many false Christians running around out there who are willing to forsake the Bible's important lessons about such things as homosexuality, in favor for what they think God wants from them. They substitute that voice over Bible study.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

[EveningStarNM]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

"Evening star" might be a demon.

Well, for that matter I "might" be an angel sent here to test you. However, I am neither one of those things. I'm just another flesh and blood human being born to a mother and father who, themselves, were born to mothers and fathers. In fact, my mother has spent a lot of her retirement researching our lineage, and she's found that we've descended from other human beings for at least 430 years. So I'm pretty confident that only human mothers and fathers are in my ancestry or were involved in my conception.

[Pastor William Nathaniel Sampson]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

But maybe I'm wrong.

But maybe you are. Read Romans 9 and get back to us.

There is no free will. There is only what God decides. Only those who are predestined get into Heaven.

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

[EveningStarNM]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

The problem is that our understanding is limited: it gives rise to limited "logic" whereas God's understanding is not limited. You might compare two computers, one a 1980's 8bit unit, the other a current state-of-the-art 8xQuadcore 64bit maxRAM setup with full pro-3D graphics pipeline.

Anything the lesser unit would handle could run on the modern computer.
But very few programs written for the 64bit OS could be "understood" by the 8bit unit.

Similarly any thoughts of ours can be understood by God in an instant, but unless He translates His thoughts into a form we can understand, they will be utterly incomprehensible to us.

God understands that - and unlike the 64bit machine (which is limited) He is without any limits at all.

Now THAT I understand! Thank you! I've earned my living in the computer trade for thirty years, and I have to say that is an excellent analogy. And I am certain that we can't possibly understand God without God's help. Fortunately, God is always there when we need understanding. We just have to be willing to listen, right?

This is what He has told us:

Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right vnto a man; but the end thereof are the wayes of death.
©1611

Sound logic may be reliable, but human logic is not sound. Chapter 12 expresses it a little more forcefully:

Proverbs 12:15 The way of a foole is right in his owne eyes: but he that hearkeneth vnto counsell, is wise.
©1611

Well, sure, people make mistakes all the time that end in their deaths.

Then how come so many people have been blighted, killed and sent to Hell for disobeying Him?

You're asking me???? I've never been to Hell. How many people are in Hell, anyway? Is there a list that we can read somewhere of the names of people that are in Hell and their infractions? Has there been a census of Hell that I don't know about?

THAT would be interesting to see! I'll bet we would learn a lot from it. At any rate, God has certainly not shown me a list of people who have been "blighted, killed, and sent to Hell for disobeying Him". I'm the wrong person to ask that question to.

That is not one of God's Laws, it is one of Isaac Newton's.
Neither are the "laws of nature" Laws which "nature" obeys: they are just a description of what we happen to observe. Here. Now.

It's not "the laws" that are like that - IT'S US.

That is why God has told us to: Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

And that is what you are not doing when you rely on logic alone.

I don't understand the difference. Newton said that he merely discovered the law. In the end, he said that the only explanation he could come up with regarding where those laws came from was that they came from God. He was a sincere believer in God, and he's been criticized by many scientists for that belief. Now, maybe he was wrong, and it certainly seems like he was since so many questions that he thought were unanswerable have since been answered. But it seems to me (and I could be wrong, too) that since God, being The Creator, created nature, God also had to create the laws that nature obeys. I mean, it's not like nature has a legislature where it votes on what it's laws will be. And it's not like nature can decide to not obey one of those laws, either. At least, I've never heard of any trees going to Hell for breaking a law. I've never even heard of a tree breaking a law.

But, like I said, I don't understand the difference.

[Zechariah Smyth]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

But I do hope you understand that I certainly am asking for your help -- and I really want it! I need your help to understand what you're talking about. If some of my questions and statments seem a bit challenging it's simply because I'm trying to get a better understanding of what it is that you're saying. Not, of course, that anything I say could ever be an actual challenge for you, right? I'm sure that you don't feel at all challenged by anything that I've said. Well, at least, I hope not.

You're almost there...you keep dancing around the answers to your questions, but you are hesitant to make that final leap.

Allow me to tell you a story:

In a previous job, I had to climb towers. Most of the time it was smaller ones, anywhere from 75 feet to around 250 feet or so.

But sometimes I climbed some incredibly tall ones...I'm talking the huge towers, 600, 800, 1000 feet plus. There is more money to be made on the taller ones, so you look forward to them.

Plus the view is spectacular!

There are many built-in safeguards, and you are using a state-of-the-art harness (with a "deceleration" line ) .

Most towers built in the last few years have features that make climbing a lot safer than in the past, from automatic clip-in channels to safer platforms to more robust guy wires to etc. etc.

But, no matter how they build the tower and no matter how newfangled the climbing gear gets, there are always these "transitions" where you have to simply let go of one thing and grab a hold of another.

This can be the change from one step or rung system to another, or a change of the angle of the face of the tower, or from a leg to platform, or from a platform to an extension... whatever.

You have to have faith in your abilities and your equipment, and a little blind faith in the things you can't control, like the engineer who spec'ed the tower, the people who constructed it, the materials used, the age and weathering of the structure, etc.

But there is that one pinpoint in time where you have to let go, and then grab the next part.

Yours in Christ,

Zechariah Smyth

[Jedediah]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

The Holy Spirit is telling me that he is probably possessed, at the very least. I am going to go pray for him now.

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

"Evening star" might be a demon.

[Jedediah]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

Yes? I'll be grateful if you would elaborate. Was I wrong?

Maybe I'm misreading this, but Deuteronomy 30:15 seems to say pretty clearly that it's up to each person to "choose". And John 15:7 does seem to imply that it's a choice each person has to make as to whether or not they will "abide".

That certainly sounds like free will to me. And I keep hearing that God created us, so God had to give it to us, right?

But maybe I'm wrong.

You are wrong, and your twisting of Scripture is very unbecoming.

Free will is an un-Biblical myth.

John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Romans 9:15-16
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

God chooses who will stand among His elect and who is preordained to eternal torments from the time before they are even a glimmer in their parents' eyes. We merely act in accordance with the path God has laid out for us. That is why I abide in righteousness and perfection, while you choose to wallow in sin and depredation.

John 6:64-65
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Romans 9:21
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

In fact, if God does not want you in Heaven, He will see to it Himself that you become deluded and blind to His Truth.

II Thessalonians 2:11-13
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

That seems pretty clear to me. But I'm sure that you reject these Bible Facts just like you reject anything else in God's Word that doesn't conform with your vain, twisted sense of "morality."