Was communism a success? A debate with Peter Krackpot.
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The only recent example of heterarchy that I can think of is the Zapatista movement - which seems to have fizzled out on its own because it's no match for the Mexican state. I suppose you could try to argue that Bolivian MAS (with its supporting structures of workers' and peasants' unions) is supposed to have a Zapatista-like bottom up structure, but if you have seen the news recently, it's a complete mess, too. |
Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread
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Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread
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But if we must the Soviet Union went from utter destruction in 1945 to space in 1961. China went from abject poverty in the 1900’s-1970’s to today’s command economy success of today. Then you have the success of the heterarchy of Mondragon in Spain or the 800+ cooperatives that exist in America... Command economies can be very successful. And so can cooperative systems. The questions are who are systems working for? Capitalism isn’t failing it is doing what it claims making capital grow at the expense of the general population. |
Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread
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Ever heard of a PGR? These show you that cooperatives imposed by someone are doomed to failed. In capitalist societies, cooperatives can survive is because their membership is voluntary, and the members actually care about their co-op. |
Re: Jews will be Joos I guess. Netanyahu charged with bribery
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Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread
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Meanwhile South Korea went from a more complete total destruction in the 1950's to the Gangam-style decadence of today without looting or handouts. Japan went from ashes to robot-cafes in the same time. Neither country has a drop of oil, by the way. Quote:
Your arguments are basically "You know how you hired me as a babysitter and all the children died and the house burned down? Well, the insurance company gave me a new house and I abducted the neighbors kids! That's why all the other babysitters are horrible and I'm the only good one!" |
Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread
You seem to base your worldview on reading a bunch of people's brainfarts and saying "these guys sound pretty smart, let's overthrow everything and put their brainfarts into action."
This is not how science works. Science is more difficult. Economic science - the dismal science - is a lot more boring than reading someone's speculations and marveling at how clever they sound. If you think that economic science is not scientific enough for you, then how about the left start a true economic science, with more scientific rigor? But it's not about that. You have a brain stuck in the stone age - the same brain God crafted for Adam - and the modern world makes no sense to a stone age brain. This is why so many people love sports, riots, sports riots, criminal gangs, gang warfare, cliques, mobs, jocks, cheerleaders, and general stupidity. It's all primitive violence, the scale and patterns are similar to stone age warfare. It comes naturally to people. In the stone age, every social problem could be solved by whipping up a a mob and launching it at the unpopular person. The stone age left keeps doing this. They don't care that it's ineffective. They only care that it comes naturally to them, and it feels natural. In the stone age, all economic problems could be solved by whipping up a mob, going after a successful tribe, and stealing their stuff. It comes naturally to people. Leftism comes naturally to people. That's the only reason leftism persists, not because of any successes. The stone age world you are trying to recreate is one of total bigotry - racism to the point of "you're from another village more than a mile away, so I'll be a hero for murdering you". Not because people were eviler, they just couldn't organize a peace process with their primitive political and economic systems. The same primitive systems you are trying to bring back. It was not an eco-utopia of wisdom and restraint, stone age people drove to extinction half the species of large animals they came across. Maybe they were wise enough to know what was happening, but they could not stop the slaughter with their primitive political and economic systems. The same primitive systems you are trying to bring back. https://pedrojordano.files.wordpress...001.jpeg?w=840 In the stone age technology barely ever advanced at all. Stuff like rope took forever to be invented, and forever to spread. Nerds who invented stuff got no respect. You had to be a jock or a cheerleader. They probably knew that they should invent more stuff. They probably knew that they needed to support the nerds who invent stuff. But they couldn't have research and development departments with their primate political and economic systems. The same primitive systems you are trying to bring back. |
Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread
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https://www.spaceanswers.com/wp-cont...t-15.12.09.png |
Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread
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Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread
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It's nothing when you think about Holodomor (don't click if you just ate), but some people react with more empathy when they hear about one dog's suffering, than when they hear about millions of peoples' suffering. |
Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland) Don’t forget the Congo under Belgium .... |
Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread
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Because in case of Holodomor, the government came and took the crops, not leaving enough to eat nor to sow. It was a 100% preventable, man-made, well planned and flawlessly executed operation which purpose was to break the Ukrainian farmers. |
Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread
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BTW the moment Belgium heard about what Leopold's command economy was doing, they annexed the Congo and turned it into a normal country. As for communist atrocities from 1917 onward, the left has still not been able to face up to it, after more than a century. Still either red holocaust deniers, or "whataboutist" subject changers like yourself. As for the British response to the Irish famine, that was Malthusian thinking at work. The only people promoting Malthusian thinking these days are on the far left. |
Re: Was communism a success? A debate with Peter Krackpot.
Well, Peter Krackpot has showed up but not replied. I guess the debate is over.
Every single time he gets a job as a babysitter, the children die. When we point this out, all he can say is that more than a century ago some babysitters also failed, among the many, many other babysitters that did just fine. Oh, but we should still hire him. The kids always die when he babysits all because of a conspiracy from the rival babysitters. Yes, capitalists can't do anything right, but we're super-geniuses at meddling, even to the point of somehow sending CIA agents back to mess up the Anabaptists in the 1500's. And the communists, despite being in constant witch-hunt mode, constantly catching and killing spies by the thousands, are still hopelessly weak against foreign meddling. Something even the crudest and most backward non-communist governments manage to handle. Back to the metaphor, as a babysitter, your job is to keep the kids alive, even if invisible goblins are trying to poison them. Every other babysitter manages to stop the invisible goblins. Maybe we should keep hiring them. |
Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread
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You certainly can call the British response to the famine "slow," "ineffective," even "uncompassionate" - but at least there was some response, rather than heartless continuation of the original plan of decreasing the number of Ukrainian farmers via man-made hunger that was implemented by Stalin. |
Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread
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