Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children
 

Ok, the beating is in the bible. Where is the humiliation, starving and freezing mentioned? Can you back that up as well?

It is funny that you tell an atheist that he has to take it up with god.

Anyway, let's for the moment and for the sake of the argument accept, that your premise is right, that the methods you mentioned in your introductory post are the ones god wants us to use.

Then either you agree with them or you don't. It is that simple. There is no other option. You made a decision of free will when you chose the ethics you follow now. And you can't blame that on a supernatural being whose existence has been neither empirically nor a priori successfully proven. So if you beat your children, YOU decided that when you chose to follow a certain path in your life. You may think, you are fulfilling the will of a divine being, but after all it is YOUR hand that is holding the stick, YOU lock your children out in the cold, YOU deny your offspring nourrishment, YOU embarrass them publicly. You can't hide behind anything.

I now understand why you are such a convicted christian. I don't know wether you have done all these things you write about, but if you did, you could never even slightly consider the option that you are wrong. Because if you are,you would have to deal with the fact that you have done a lot of truly evil misdeeds, worse, sins you are never going to be able to make up for. The religious delusions are just yourway of dealing with the torment of your conscience.

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children
 

It is always entertaining when creationists think they know stochastics, physics, chemistry or any actual real science for that matter. Do go on.


1% of a trillion is 10 billions. See, I can do math ;-).Apart from that, your calculation only makes sense if the bible is true. Atheists don't do that.Life ends when your brain stops working, there is nothing after that. And from that perspective (even though you may deem it misjudged) you can't deny that CrankyOldMan does advices somethingthat is despicable.


I am sure you are suffering from emotional wounds no sane person can understand or cure.


See? No worshipping out of free will. It is fear that keeps you doing it.

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children
 

What's even more entertaining is to see scientists struggle with "science" that goes against the Word of God.

At the foundation of all science is the Word of God. If you find that your conclusions disagree with God, then guess who has to be wrong? Is the man wrong, or is the Almighty Creator of everything wrong...hmmm...seems like an easy choice to me. :thumbsup::innocent::bye:

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children
 

I chose to follow God's guidelines. That can be very tough, especially when the child you are beating up is crying in agony. Christian parenting is very tough on both the parent and the child. But the Bible clearly states the alternative is eternal damnation, so for the future of your child a Christian parent simply has to endure it.

I am not hiding anything. What I do and why I do it is all here. And yes, I used my free will to choose to obey God to prevent my children from burning in Hell. And I am proud to be a Bible obeying Christian.

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children
 

Nope. At the foundation of science, there is always empirical evidence and logic. Scientist never struggle with anything that goes against the so called word of god because the word of god is irrelevant for what they do. Creationists do struggle with science contradicting the holy book, but they are not scientists, because they don't base their findings on logic and empirical evidence.

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children
 

Until you learn that at the foundation of EVERYTHING is the Holy Word™ of God, then there is simply no reasoning with you.

The Word of God came before the universe, and will be around after God destroys it. The Word of God is eternal and infallible. If something conflicts with the Word of God, then it is SIMPLY WRONG!!

Friend, why do you hate God?

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children
 

I don't hate something that doesn't exist. If you mean the fairy tale figure in the old testament, I think actually a bit of reading will reveal why this character isn't the most sympathetic one.

Your forum name suggests you have a PhD. I was under the impression that getting a PhD requires you to do research and research requires you to look things up that have already been done on the field that you are working on.

Now, if you actually bothered to do that, and you had looked here

http://thesaurus.com/browse/reason

The first synonym you find for reason is
You want to reason with me, meaning you want to use logic? Yet you deny its importance for science? Okay....

You seem to have a rather quirky understanding of reasoning. If god destroyed the universe, then where exactly will his word be around? There is nothing left because everything is destroyed.

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children
 

You refer to the loving Creator that gave you life as "something that doesn't exist" and as an "unsympathetic fairy-tale figure."

He sent Himself to be sacrificed to Himself in a grueling death so that we would not be an intolerable abomination to Him...how is this unsympathetic?

You deny His existence...you therefore must hate Him. :thumbdown: Well, He hates you too:

God exists outside of the causal order of the universe. God is not a subset of the universe, rather the reverse is true. How do you think God could exist before He created the universe? Think before you post, to avoid making yourself look even more foolish. :lol2:

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children
 

I am alife because my parents had unprotected sex. Weren't you told how mammals procreate in school? That sentence does not make sense. It's like saying how come an apple is round, but a banana is still delicious? No. I deny the existence of unicorns, too, but I don't hate unicorns. Why would I care if an imaginary figure form a semi real book hates me? You were talking about his word. Why is there a need for a word when nothing is left where it can be heard? I suggest, you follow your own advice.

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children
 

Easy, because God created them that way.

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children
 

You are alive because all of your descendents all the way back to Adam procreated. And who gave Adam life? Yep, it was none other than God...now don't you feel foolish? It's okay, as an atheist you are foolish at heart. Let me explain how things work:

You see, the universe is full of sequences of events, where each event is predated by a cause, all of which lead back to the moment when God created the universe. This is the causal order I spoke of before. Only God is completely outside of this order.

Do you care to show how this silly analogy is applicable in any way to what I said? This kind of mushy thinking might confuse your atheist butt-buddies, but you are dealing with the sharp mind of a True Christian™, so you will actually have to make sense here. ;)

Unicorns existed in the past:

So, the question stands...why do you hate God?

Do you deny that the mind of God exists outside of and independent of the universe he created for us? That would be silly, even for an atheist. :wacko:

That would be like saying the egg came before the chicken, which is a ridiculous notion.

You know, it's not too late for you to admit your hatred of God is wrong, get on your knees and repent, and get right with God. Jesus brought you here so that you could be instructed in the ways of his followers. Don't let this chance get away from you and you find yourself impaled on the barbed tallywhacker of Satan, while you are burned forever and have no chance of escape...ever. :fear2:

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children
 

No. In the beginning there were some simple molecules, like ammonia, methane and carbon dioxide on earth. These molecules contain all the atoms required to form more complex molecules and systems of molecules. At some point a pattern occurred that procreated. Over billions of years and trillions and quadrillions of individuals, today's species such as mankind and all the animals, plants funghi etc around you evolved.

I wholeheartedly agree. That is the fundament of modern science. If causality didn't exist, we could throw away pretty much all we know in an instant.

And this is where it gets ludicrous. Either causality is universal, then god is subject to it. Or it isn't, in which case what you said before is invalid.


No, this kind of argument might confuse your christians, who see it is about the divine, so it has to right. Anybody not indoctrinated will see that the parts of your sentence are simply not related to each other. Just as the roundness of an apple and the taste of a banana are two completely different things that are not related.

[/QUOTE]but you are dealing with the sharp mind of a True Christian™[/QUOTE]A razor blade is very sharp, but it is also very tiny and thin...


Are there any unicorns today? I have seen none.


Ok, the bible uses unicorns in a comparison. Why does that mean I hate god? I think your mind needs a little sharpening.



This is getting tiring. Please do read my posts before you answer. I asked about the WORD of god. I better repeat this. The WORD!!!!! Not the mind!!!! If any supernatural being ended the universe at a time, there would be no place for his/her word to be around.

So you have seen chicken transforming into eggs? I have only seen the exact opposite.

Your very fine example just demonstrates that the notion of a god does not make sense from a rational point of view because the foundation of rationality, causality does not apply to god.

I don't hate something whose existence is not backed up by empirical evidence. Neither the existence of god nor the existence of hell nor the one of unicorns has been proven by science. I am not afraid of hell, because I don't believe it exists. When will you people get it? It is futile to threaten me with eternal torment as long as I think your judgement is misguided in that respect.

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children
 

There is plenty of proof that heaven and hell exist. I don't know if you're familiar with the parable of Lazarus (Lk 16:20-31). A man being tormented in hell pleads with Abraham to send Lazarus back from the dead to warn his brothers about hell. Abraham's response was:

Lk 16:31b If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

"Moses and the prophets" means the Old Testament. In other words, if you won't believe that hell exists because the Bible says so, then you definitely won't believe any real evidence, such as someone who has seen hell coming back from the dead to tell you all about it.

So. I have proved that hell exists. How do I know heaven exists? Simple. If heaven didn't exist, Jesus would have told us so!

Jn 14:2 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

That was too easy. What else have you got?

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children
 

When you do a PhD the point is to break new ground: to do research is an act of discovery. Are you referring to the lit review?

For example, my thesis was about the efficacy of positive externalised Jesus focussed self talk in the disruption of depressive rumination and worry cognition chains of effect for pre and post morbid individuals in an out patient setting (and yes we had double blinds in place).

The reason I got funding was because no body had ever asked that question before. But I still had to read the Bible.

Does that make sense?

YIC

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children
 

So, simple molecules just magically combined to make complex molecules that magically became living things? If this were the case then wouldn't we see non-living matter becoming living matter all around us?

The only thing we can never discard is the Word of God. :nono:

God is not contained by the universe, the universe is contained by God. Please read my posts more carefully.

So, you agree then that you original analogy here is ridiculous. You are so confused without God that you can't even remember what you're talking about.

So...you believe the only species that have ever existed are those which are living today? According to you then, there is no such thing as extinction? Interesting.

The Bible speaks of unicorns, thus they existed. My mind is infinitely dull compared to that of The Almighty, but compared to you, it would cleave an atom of spacetime many times over.

Rejecting the Word of God is hatred towards God.

Well well, you are getting tired? Did you not read the verse I quoted?

http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/John%201.1

The Word IS God.

So you believe only that which you can see? You've never seen a chicken lay an egg? Have you ever seen an egg arise from nothing?

God made the laws of nature and logic, but is not bound by them. God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient.

Science offers nothing but theories and conjectures. Nothing is proven. The Word of God is the only Truth we have. You are allowing Satan to cloud your mind with all sorts of nonsense. This is how he leads the majority to hell. Wake up your clouded mind and behold the Truth of God!!

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children
 

Exactly.


Empirical evidence. That means observable by your own eyes or ears.

Not magically. It's about valence electrons and proximity.

Depends on the odds of that happening. If this occurs very often, then yes, we would see it all the time.

We don't, and we can conclude the odds are very small. Yet they are not zero. As I stated, billions of years passed since the universe started. Our universe contains millions of galxies, all of which have billions of stars. A fraction of them is habitable, meaning it has conditions similar to earth. On some of them, life formed and earth happens to be one of them.

Yes, it is a reductio ad absurdum of your original argument which was this:


Then what is it that he exists in?

Ah, so you use the phrase word of god as a synonym for god? That is a bit confusing, but okay...

In a more abstract way

Egg->chicken #this is a transformation: one thing is consumed by turning into another one
chicken->egg+chicken #this is not a transformation as the chicken is not consumed. It existed before it laid an egg and will continue to do so after the egg was laid.

I think it has been brought up that in this case he could create a stone he couldn't lift.

If he couldn't create it, he wouldn't be omnipotent, if he could create it, he couldn't lift it and then he wouldn't be omnipotent.

But not without evidence. And if there is contradicting evidence, it will be adjusted and advanced.

I looked here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth#Substantive_theories

The following definitions of truth exist:

1) Correspondence

We cannot observe god directly. but the bible makes statements about this world, we are living on, too. Does the bible accurately describe our world? Well, it was repeatedly stated at these forums that theaccording to the bible the world is flat and roughly 7000-12000 years old. Now, something like radio carbon dating is accurate up to 60.000 years. If you look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiome...Xe_chronometer

You will see that the principle can be extended to nuclei besides carbon. Even though these methods are insufficient to prove earth is 4.5 billion years old, they definitely disprove the assumption that it is at maximum 12.000 years old.


2) Coherence

So no internal contradictions in the bible? Then what do we have here?

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...ml#good_to_all

The list on the website is much longer, but I won't list the rest here.

3) Constructivist

If we were living in a christian theocracy, I would agree that the word of god is truth by that criterion. However, we don't live in a christian theocracy.

4) Consensus

If you look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups

33 % of christian faith worldwide? There are more nonchristians than christians.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

This doesn't look good for christian truth.

Doesn't look good for the future

5)Pragmatic

Truth is that concordance of an abstract statement with the ideal limit towards which endless investigation would tend to bring scientific belief

What you declare god cannot be scientifically proven. So by that definition the bible the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent creator can neither be false nor true.

To quote the amazing atheist from youtube: If I told you I had real dinosaur at home, but it is invisible, inaudible and you cannot touch it, would you believe me?

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children
 

Show me anywhere else there is life except on God's green Earth.

You claimed God is unsympathetic. I countered with an amazing show of love and sympathy by God for the plight of man. You couldn't stand to be shown that you are wrong, so you invent subterfuge. Nice try.

God cannot be contained. It's akin to trying to express the set of real numbers on a closed interval.

You're missing the entire point here. Chickens produce chicken eggs. If you trace a chicken's ancestry back to the beginning, you arrive at the original chicken God created.

This question is representative of the type of paradoxes atheists use in attempts to prove that God cannot exist. It works like this. God is supposed to be omnipotent. If He is omnipotent, then He can create a rock so big that He can't pick it up. If He cannot make a rock like this, then He is not omnipotent. If He can make a rock so big He can't pick it up, then He isn't omnipotent either. Either way demonstrates that God cannot do something. Therefore God is not omnipotent. Therefore God does not exist.

Is this logical? A little. However, the problem is that this bit of logic omits some crucial information. Therefore, it's conclusion is inaccurate.
What the above "paradox" lacks is vital information concerning God's nature. His omnipotence is not something independent of His nature. It is part of His nature. God has a nature and His attributes operate within that nature, as does anything and everything else.

For example, I have human nature. I can run, but I cannot outrun a lion. My nature simply does not permit it. My ability to run is connected to my nature and I cannot violate it. So too with God. His omnipotence is connected to His nature since being omnipotent is part of what He is. Omnipotence, then, must be consistent with what He is and not with what He is not since His omnipotence is not an entity to itself. Therefore, God can only do those things that are consistent with His nature. He cannot lie because it is against His nature to do so. Not being able to lie does not mean He is not God or that He is not all powerful. Also, He cannot cease to be God. Since He is in all places at all times, if He stopped existing then He wouldn't be in all places at all times. Therefore, He cannot cease to exist without violating His own nature.

The point is that God cannot do something that is a violation of His own existence and nature. Therefore, He cannot make a rock so big he can't pick up, or make something bigger than Himself, etc. But, not being able to do this does not mean He is not God, nor that He is not omnipotent. Omnipotence is not the ability to do anything conceivable, but the ability to do anything consistent with His nature and consistent with His desire within the realm of His unlimited and universal power which we do not possess. This does not mean He can violate His own nature. If He did something inconsistent with His nature, then He would be self-contradictory. If God were self- contradictory, He would not be true. Likewise, if He did something that violated His nature, like make a rock so big He couldn't pick it up, He would also not be true since that would be a self- contradiction. Since truth is not self-contradictory, as neither is God, if He were not true, then He would not be God. But God is true and not self-contradictory. Therefore, God cannot do something that violates His own nature.

Another way to look at it is to realize that in order for God to make something so big He couldn't pick it up, He would have to make a rock bigger than Himself. Since He is infinite in size, He would have to make something that would be bigger than Himself. Since it is His nature to be the biggest thing in existence because He created all things, He cannot violate His own nature by making a rock that is larger than He.
Also, since a rock, by definition, is not infinitely big, then it isn't logically possible to make a rock, something that is finite in size, be infinite in size (no longer a rock) since only God is infinite in size. At dictionary.com, a rock is defined as a "Relatively hard, naturally formed mineral or petrified matter; stone. a) A relatively small piece or fragment of such material. b) A relatively large body of such material, as a cliff or peak. c) A naturally formed aggregate of mineral matter constituting a significant part of the earth's crust." A rock, by definition, is not infinitely large. So to say the rock must be so big that God cannot pick it up is to say that the rock is no longer a rock.

What the critics are asking is that God become self-contradictory as a proof He doesn't exist. Their assertion is illogical from the start. What they are doing is trying to get God to be illogical. They are being illogical to prove God doesn't exist, instead of using logic. It doesn't work and the "paradox" is self-refuting and invalid.

Contrast this with the unwavering, unchanging Word of God, perfect and complete. Sceince can be wonderful, but the moment it contradicts God's Word, it must be discarded, since it it obviously worthless.

This shows us that science, along with everything else, is to be corrected by the Word of God.

The Bible is accurate in all things, as explained above.

It doesn't matter what type of government we have, this does not affect the Truth of The Word of God. Governments come and go...The Word of God is eternally truthful.

What it doesn't look good for are all the unsaved heathens, like yourself, who are bound for hell.

If a man makes a ridiculous statement, I would demand proof. However, if God were to say anything ridiculous, I would not demand proof. By definition, anything God says is true.

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children
 

Tricky. Our instrumentation is not yet advanced enough to thoroughly investigate our own star system, let alone others. The distance you have to travel are immense. I'd say wait a thousand years and then we discuss this again, but I am afraid you and I will be long dead by then. However, if you exclude the existence of life on a different planet, where is proof of that? Or if you want to stay in your frame of reference: if we look here: http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c012.html You wrote he made us, then he tortured himself to death because he couldn't stand us. You claim that makes him sympathetic. To me this looks like you conceive a child. Well, no, you don't conceive it because god didn't just conceive us, he made us. He engineered us, if you so will. Ok, it looks like you engineer your child through genetic engineering or whatever, you look at it, for some reasons you find it's hideous and because of that you kill yourself in a painful way, knowing that you won't die because you are immortal. Please show me how this makes someone sympathetic because frankly I don't see it. The real numbers are contained in the space of complex numbers. But I digress. Or the original biomolecule that started procreating. But do go on. I can accept that. So you expand the definition of omnipotence a bit, but I can accept that concept. So by now we have a definition that allows the existence of a very mighty being. Still, the proof of existence is still open, and I will come to that later. And here we go. That's the part that bothers me most. You have something in front of your eyes that tells you what is in the bible is wrong and still you believe that the bible is right and somehow reality has got it wrong. That is the point where christian, or for that purpose, any faith becomes stupid to me. Anyway, I look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible Man is fallible. How can you be sure that your way of interpreting the bible is the right one? And if you take it at face value, how do you know that is the way it was meant to be read? And how do you even know it was written by god and not by someone who just pretended to be god, but instead was a really charismatic speaker/impostor/liar? Because if it wasn't in fact written by god, you are screwed. After all, the bibles you read are not passed down directly by a divine being and mysteriously appear in your living room, they are printed from templates which have been passed on by humans., which come from other humans who CLAIM to have been enlightened. Where is actual proof that this isn't just a giant hoax that is thousands of years old, made up by some power hungry guys who like commanding others? In contrast to god, it is proven that people with such a mentality do exist. I think I covered that already. Usually you don't have god speaking to you. Much more often you have someone who claims to have god spoken to him/her. Which reduces the whole affair to the dinosaur example. If you think you hav god speaking to you, how do you separate it form wishful thinking?

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children
 

The Bible does not mention leprechauns either, so are we to assume they exist until we prove otherwise.

It's funny, the Bible mentions unicorns, but you refuse to believe, but now you say we should believe something because the Bible does not specifically rule it out. Typical flawed atheist logic. :thumbdown:

You really should read the Bible before trying to debate. God created man perfect and without sin. However, man chose to disobey God, and became contaminated as a result. At this point man is an abomination to God, who is without sin.

God could have chosen to simply forgive this sin, but setting a good example, He followed His own rules and required a blood sacrifice. He gave His own Son...do you know anyone who would give their own son to save your worthless soul?

Yes, the real numbers are a line in the Argand plane. And?

No need for me to go on, I have taken it back to the beginning.

God is not "very mighty." He is omnipotent. :facepalm:

The Bible is never wrong. Until you accept this, you will wallow in ignorance, and end up in hell.

The Bible is never wrong. Until you accept this, you will wallow in ignorance, and end up in hell.

Yep, this has been covered. You are wrong and headed for hell.

The Holy Bible is the Living Word of God. Until you accept this, you will wallow in ignorance, and end up in hell.

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children
 

No I am saying you shouldn't rule it out because neither does the bible. Either god intended man to disobey him. Since according to you disobeying him is equivalent to being flawed, man wasn't perfect to begin with. Or god didn't intend man to disobey him. Then how come man didn't work out as intended? In which case god's creation is flawed. See how the bible doesn't add up? I shudder at the thought that someone would sacrifice their son because he thinks he is saving my soul. I would never want that someone uses me as an excuse to kill his/her offspring. (You may interpret it differently, but that's what it boils down to, isn't it?) Neither will I end up in hell, nor will I accept the bible is right where it is clearly wrong. The bible is a book printed on the remains of trees by humans, orignially put down by humans who claim it is the expression of a divine spirit.