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Reload this Page Please help with contradictions in the Christmas story
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Smile Please help with contradictions in the Christmas story - 12-23-2015, 05:08 AM

Yes! Merry Christmas everybody!

It is Harsha Shah here. I am sorry that I have not been around very much but I have been very busy. Now it is school holidays here is Scotland and I am doing some Christmas preparations and having more time to write. Yes. We are having a vegetarian Christmas dinner with some friends although we do not share the christian faith in my family.

This autumn I have been teaching my class but also RME that is religious and moral education to some older children, and we were going through the Christmas story early this week. I have been studying it at the University in detail. It comes from the gospels of Matthew and Luke. It is a compilation. We were also reading the lyrics of some carols. Yes. Some of the children are taking French (others take Gaelic) and they find "Away in a manger" a bit funny because of that. Yes.

I hope I am not offending you but one of the children, a girl, came very well prepared and she opposed everything. I am hoping you will be able to help me. She was referring to the contradictions between the two stories and historical records and there was quite a fight between the children.

The date? Where does December 25 come from? Does it come from Mithraism? Is it only tradition of the Catholic Church as I have not been finding any other explanations? Yes?

The year? The Romans were keeping records and Herod died 4 BC. The census of Quirinius in the Luke could not have been taking place before 6 AD. There are no records of a census with illiterate people finding out their genealogy and going to the hometown of distant ancestors. The Romans were effective and this would have been very ineffective (the girl's words, yes). Herod and Quirinius were not simultaneous. I could not answer this one expect by saying that the girl is right and Matthew or Luke or both have been making mistakes. Yes?

The massacre of the innocents? Why were the Romans not reporting it? I answered that the records of that period are not necessarily reliable but unfortunately the girl said "my point exactly".

Where did Jesus go from Bethlehem? Luke is writing that the family went to Nazareth but Matthew is saying they fled to Egypt. Yes. My answer was the same as above, yes it was.

The star? If this is a miracle it does not need explanations but if it was a comet or something the year is off. The girl was also asking why the mages needed a star to guide them from Jerusalem to Bethlehem as it is only 8 kilometres. She was being a bit sassy by this point and I hope I am not offending you with this story. Were they blind she asked.

Matthew is telling that Herod knew that Jesus was born but all the people of his court had forgotten this by the time Jesus was an adult. Yes. Is this reasonable? I was able to answer this one as kings and important people meet many strangers and hear many stories and cannot remember all of them. Yes. I once waved my hand at Prince Charles but I am thinking that he probably does not remember the incident. OK the girl said.

At this point it was about the virgin birth and I had to close the discussion as the boys were starting to make lewd comments about the virgin birth and about the shepherds and sheep. Yes. One more point: the girl said that sheep were not outside at night during wintertime in ancient Israel. This one is about the date.

I was trying to explain that the message of a good story is not in history but in the fact that it is relating to us and giving us inspired awe and good will. The children mostly wanted to know how many presents they were getting. I am thinking that I did not do a very good job. Yes. I have been receiving some angry phone calls and e-mails from Christian parents last night. I am asking you why the stories are contradictory and not supported by history. I am thinking that my answer of them relating to us to make us better is still a good one. Yes?

I am hoping you all have a wonderful Christmas and that your wishes come true. Yes.


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Default Re: Please help with contradictions in the Christmas story - 12-23-2015, 11:17 AM

Hi, Harsha! I'd be happy to help.





THERE ARE NO CONTRADICTIONS IN THE BIBLE!!!!





I hope this clears things up.


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Default Re: Please help with contradictions in the Christmas story - 12-23-2015, 03:10 PM

Miss Shah, I have to acknowledge you are making progress in you understanding of Christianity. You correctly pointed out that when there are two conflicting versions of the same story, we know they both happened.

I fill in for Pastor Zeke and the other pastors and speak around the metro here at this time of year. Service clubs and such want Pastor Zeke to tell them about Christmas in the most Christian city in the area. He and the staff pastors are usually booked a year in advance.

At question time, there will be the inevitable smart-assed atheist who will bring up the same issues your students bring up. Some of these questions are so Satan inspired the usual answers do not work. For these, God has guided me to point out to the questioner, "You were not there." Then I move on to the next person.

Miss Shah, I am praying you will find Jesus in the coming year.


Isaiah 24:1-3 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty (2)...as the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him. (3) The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken his word.
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Smile Re: Please help with contradictions in the Christmas story - 12-23-2015, 07:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Swallows View Post
Hi, Harsha! I'd be happy to help.
THERE ARE NO CONTRADICTIONS IN THE BIBLE!!!!
I hope this clears things up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johny Joe Hold View Post
Miss Shah, I have to acknowledge you are making progress in you understanding of Christianity. You correctly pointed out that when there are two conflicting versions of the same story, we know they both happened.

Miss Shah, I am praying you will find Jesus in the coming year.
Yes, Mr. Swallows and Mr. Mayor. You are very kind to answer my questions.

This is very helpful. I am thinking now that the contradictions are real only if we think that there is only one truth. Yes. But Mr. Mayor is saying that all the things happened even if they could not have happened both. It is a paradox. There are so many ways to get enlightened. Yes.

Yes, this is very similar to oriental thought. There are many simultaneous truths and we are sharing the world but we are not always sharing the same truths but we could. Yes. We can now say yes to everything! I have been telling the story about the blind men and the elephant. One feels only the trunk and someone only the front leg but the elephant is much more than the partial truths. Yes. We are all blind men and we have truths. Matthew was one and Luke was one and they were both telling a true story that the other one contradicts. Yes.

There are so many truths and we agree. This is perhaps the Christianity that I can relate to. This is quite beautiful. I am thinking that I can answer my pupils now. Yes. Thank you Mr. Swallows and Mr. Mayor.


"Ecclesiastes 3:7
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak."
Yes. Women are saving lives. It is time we are speaking! Yes!
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Default Re: Please help with contradictions in the Christmas story - 12-23-2015, 08:25 PM

Hairy, contradictions only exist if you deny truth and honesty.
How can you possibly believe in hindoo when you have false gods with arms, refuse to eat steak and think Elephants are sacred. You think when you die, you are reborn. Around and around. If that were true, how come there are more and more of you people?

God had the Bible written. God created everything. It cannot be incorrect.


Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
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Default Re: Please help with contradictions in the Christmas story - 12-24-2015, 01:07 AM

I can sympathize with your little friend, Miss Shah. I too wish to know everything there is to know about my Savior, from the very moment He was born to the very moment He died to the very moment He stopped being dead, to the very moment He ascended into the clouds and presumably into outer space, not to stop until He came to the Throne in which He sits comfortably, way out of reach of modern telescopes, miraculously able to watch everything we do way over here.

It's clear the LORD does not give us all this information. Perhaps He thought it would bog down the Holy Bible and people would loose interest if it was much longer (John 21:25). Perhaps He simply wants to test our faith and see which of His creatures are loyal enough to believe stories that defy all our knowledge and experience (such as walking on water, virgins giving birth, unicorns, etc). All we know is one day we shall see clearly (1 Corinthians 13:12), not unlike Jacob did (Genesis 32:30), or Moses did (Exodus 33:11), but with more answers, and also with the benefit of Salvation from eternal torture that the Jews didn't have (John 3:18). But I digress. I would encourage you to help your little friend to stop badgering the LORD, and just wait patiently until she dies to know the Truth™, like the rest of us.

In the meantime, it might be helpful to know that while we do not have the specifics such as the exact year, day, hour, or minute, or even the location or circumstances under which this epic event happened, we can rest assured that if God felt it was important for us to know the exact date of the Savior’s birth, He certainly would have told us in His Word. The Gospel of Luke gives very specific details about the event, even down to what the baby was wearing - "swaddling clothes" - and where he slept - "in a manger" (Luke 2:12). These details are clearly more important than when or where, or any other details that might be corroborated by unbiased, objective civilians who, unbeknownst to them, just so happened to have lived at the same time and place, and preserved in records that have lasted centuries so many important and even mundane events, with the notable exception of the birth of the Creator in the flesh.


Hello, my name is Mary. I hope to fellowship with you! That is, unless you don't listen to church authority (Deuteronomy 17:12); are a witch (Exodus 22:17); are a homosexual (Leviticus 20:13; Romans 1:24-32); or fortuneteller (Leviticus 20:27) or a snotty kid who hits their dad (Exodus 21:15); or curses their parents (Proverbs 20:20; Leviticus 20:9); an adulterer (Leviticus 20:10); a non-Christian (Exodus 22:19; Deuteronomy 13:7-12; Deuteronomy 17:2-5;Romans 1:24-32); an atheist (2 Chronicles 15:12-13); or false prophet (Zechariah 13:3); from the town of one who worships another, false god (Deuteronomy 13:13-19); were a non-virgin bride (Deuteronomy 22:20-21); or blasphemer (Leviticus 24:10-16), as God calls for your execution and will no doubt send you to Hell, and I have no interest developing a friendship with the Spiritually Walking Dead.

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Default Re: Please help with contradictions in the Christmas story - 12-24-2015, 01:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johny Joe Hold View Post
You correctly pointed out that when there are two conflicting versions of the same story, we know they both happened.
Amen!!!



I will never understand how Jesus-haters fail to grasp this simple concept...it's infuriating. I mean, look, if God said it happened one way, and then He said it happened an altogether different way elsewhere in Scripture, DEAL WITH IT.



YiC,

Zech


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Smile Re: Please help with contradictions in the Christmas story - 12-24-2015, 03:10 AM

Yes. You are all very kind to answer my questions although I am thinking that you could be offended by them.

Yes. I am thinking that it is a sad and beautiful story. The beautiful answer by Mrs. Etheldreda is also making me realize that this is indeed a Religion with a leap of faith. You can be a christian and rejoice of ignorance in the things hidden. I am very sorry that I cannot do it. Mr. Hutchins, the Hindu Deities you mentions are also beautiful and sad and I am sorry I do not believe in them, either.

Yes. It is a story that is teaching me a lot about the western way of thinking. The battle between light and darkness is being outsourced to external powers but in my culture it is a struggle within. When you accept your dark side you can embrace it and comfort it and give it solace to calm it down. Yes. You are all starting out as guilty and striving for innocence and we are striving to cast off desire.

I am wishing you a very merry Christmas. Perhaps it is time I looked into my own faith to see if something remains. Yes, I will.


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A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak."
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Default Re: Please help with contradictions in the Christmas story - 12-24-2015, 10:02 AM

Ms Shah, really I wonder if you aren't thinking about this too hard. What's so hard about reading the Bible and believing every single word as the literal Truth given to us by the One True God? Even small children can do this... I think you probably retarted.


Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit
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Default Re: Please help with contradictions in the Christmas story - 12-24-2015, 01:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harsha Shah View Post
Yes. You are all very kind to answer my questions although I am thinking that you could be offended by them.

Yes. I am thinking that it is a sad and beautiful story. The beautiful answer by Mrs. Etheldreda is also making me realize that this is indeed a Religion with a leap of faith. You can be a christian and rejoice of ignorance in the things hidden. I am very sorry that I cannot do it. Mr. Hutchins, the Hindu Deities you mentions are also beautiful and sad and I am sorry I do not believe in them, either.

Yes. It is a story that is teaching me a lot about the western way of thinking. The battle between light and darkness is being outsourced to external powers but in my culture it is a struggle within. When you accept your dark side you can embrace it and comfort it and give it solace to calm it down. Yes. You are all starting out as guilty and striving for innocence and we are striving to cast off desire.

I am wishing you a very merry Christmas. Perhaps it is time I looked into my own faith to see if something remains. Yes, I will.
What people do not understand is that God is God.
He is able to do the impossible, something a human mind cannot ever understand.
He can make it freezing cold and boiling hot, at the same time.
He can use unstoppable force against immovable objects.
He can create everything and destroy it at the same time. He is a true wonder!

You being a woman and a indian at that, probably are incapable of understanding any of this.

Please excuse me as I have to go out to the barn and slaughter a one year old lamb for Christmas dinner. All the Hutchins children come to see the gift God gave us bleed out on the chopping block and give thanks for it being them lamb and not them this time. The most joyous day of the year!


Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
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Default Re: Please help with contradictions in the Christmas story - 12-24-2015, 05:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Hutchins View Post
What people do not understand is that God is God.
He is able to do the impossible, something a human mind cannot ever understand.
He can make it freezing cold and boiling hot, at the same time.
He can use unstoppable force against immovable objects.
He can create everything and destroy it at the same time. He is a true wonder!!
Amen!

Why, who else could do two seemingly opposite things without breaking the fabric of time and space? But we know the LORD can do just that! For example, He both warned Moses that no man can see His face and live, and yet spoke with Moses face to face like a friend and Moses lived!

And he said, Thou canst not see my face:
for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exodus 33:20

And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend....
Exodus 33:11


Christ Himself was two places at the same time.

Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
Mark 15:32-33

And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
John 19:14

And even ascended into Heaven FOUR different times, all at the same time (for He only ascended ONCE)!
  • On the Day of His Resurrection (Luke 24:1-51; Mark 16:9-19)
  • Eight Days after His Resurrection (John 20:26)
  • Many Days after His Resurrection (Acts 13:31)
  • Forty Days after His Resurrection ( Acts 1:2-3, 9)
Glory!


Hello, my name is Mary. I hope to fellowship with you! That is, unless you don't listen to church authority (Deuteronomy 17:12); are a witch (Exodus 22:17); are a homosexual (Leviticus 20:13; Romans 1:24-32); or fortuneteller (Leviticus 20:27) or a snotty kid who hits their dad (Exodus 21:15); or curses their parents (Proverbs 20:20; Leviticus 20:9); an adulterer (Leviticus 20:10); a non-Christian (Exodus 22:19; Deuteronomy 13:7-12; Deuteronomy 17:2-5;Romans 1:24-32); an atheist (2 Chronicles 15:12-13); or false prophet (Zechariah 13:3); from the town of one who worships another, false god (Deuteronomy 13:13-19); were a non-virgin bride (Deuteronomy 22:20-21); or blasphemer (Leviticus 24:10-16), as God calls for your execution and will no doubt send you to Hell, and I have no interest developing a friendship with the Spiritually Walking Dead.

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Default Re: Please help with contradictions in the Christmas story - 12-24-2015, 07:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mary Etheldreda View Post
Amen!

Why, who else could do two seemingly opposite things without breaking the fabric of time and space? But we know the LORD can do just that! For example, He both warned Moses that no man can see His face and live, and yet spoke with Moses face to face like a friend and Moses lived!

And even ascended into Heaven FOUR different times, all at the same time (for He only ascended ONCE)!
  • On the Day of His Resurrection (Luke 24:1-51; Mark 16:9-19)
  • Eight Days after His Resurrection (John 20:26)
  • Many Days after His Resurrection (Acts 13:31)
  • Forty Days after His Resurrection ( Acts 1:2-3, 9)
Glory!
Beautiful examples, Sister E.

Even in the big picture one can see the unique ability of God to do two opposing things at once. Jesus had to die to offset our sins. But, Jesus had to live to be on God's team to oversee humanity. So, Jesus was both dead and alive.

Being a Christian and understanding all of this is wonderful. Atheists were born one light short and don't get it.


Isaiah 24:1-3 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty (2)...as the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him. (3) The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken his word.
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Default Re: Please help with contradictions in the Christmas story - 11-25-2016, 10:56 PM

Besides limiting our free speech by greeting us with "Happy Holidays", atheists are forever bringing up their version of the "truth". They question, for example, how we know December 25th was the day baby Jesus was born.

Their War on Christmas is just beginning. We need our biggest guns to fire back.

If only atheists knew how we suffer from their taunts. I can't think of a greater slur than "Happy Holidays". Would it be too improper to give the bird every time people say this?

What is called the "f" bomb is common now days. I'm tempted to say "f" OFF every time someone says "Happy Holidays". But, my position as a public official prevents me from doing this.

Nevertheless, aggressive responses are what is required to questions about the so called "contradictions".


Isaiah 24:1-3 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty (2)...as the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him. (3) The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken his word.
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Default Re: Please help with contradictions in the Christmas story - 11-26-2016, 12:10 AM

"Happy Holiday's" is clearly a cultural (mis)appropriation and an outrage. It's called CHRISTmas for a reason.

The stupid atheists can go celebrate Isaac Newton's birthday if they want, but stop the insults to Jesus.


Hell's foundations quiver at the shout of praise;
brothers, lift your voices, loud your anthems raise.
...and get off my lawn
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Default Re: Please help with contradictions in the Christmas story - 11-26-2016, 12:43 AM

Honestly whoever is able to find a contradiction in the Bible is able to find a contradiction in 2+2=4
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Default Re: Please help with contradictions in the Christmas story - 12-29-2020, 09:14 PM

I read an atheist claim the other day that Mary might not have been a virgin like the Bible tells us. Atheists should ask for forgiveness after making such a ridiculous claim.

Their argument goes like this. Everyday, somewhere in the world, a young girl tells her mother, "I've missed two periods. But I know I'm not pregnant because I haven't had sex with anyone." Because these girls are lying, atheists conclude Mary, also, was lying.

Atheists have not done their homework. First, we have Mary's testimony she was a virgin. Second, we have God telling us in the Bible she was impregnated by the Holy Spirit without traditional sex. That settles the matter.

Atheist writing like that below making the claim against Mary's virginity must be challenged.

Verifying the Virgin Birth | Jonathan MS Pearce (patheos.com)


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