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Default Is God pro-life? - 06-16-2019, 07:45 PM

I was reading my Bible the other month and noticed that during the Great Flood God did not spare women who were carrying unborn babies. He killed the fetuses stone cold dead in the womb. Probably death by oxygen starvation or possibly a convulsing miscarriage into the cold water, followed by drowning. I really need to brush up on that aspect of medicine. Is it even abortion if you kill the mother? I don't think so. Anyway it doesn't matter.

I think what God meant to say when He wrote the Bible was that He is pro-life with certain exceptions for example mass killing of sinners or killing the mother at the same time or just before. This is completely compatible with President Trump's strong and consistent convictions about abortion:

“As most people know, and for those who would like to know, I am strongly Pro-Life, with the three exceptions – Rape, Incest and protecting the Life of the mother – the same position taken by Ronald Reagan”

“We must stick together and Win for Life in 2020,” Trump added. “If we are foolish and do not stay UNITED as one, all of our hard fought gains for Life can, and will, rapidly disappear!”

What this means is that we should continue to vote Republican regardless of any specific issues, including abortion - on which they are completely consistent Biblically - but even if it appears they are not, they are. Life begins at 40. No abortion. Reagan/Trump 2020.
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Bible Re: Is God pro-life? - 06-17-2019, 02:28 AM

Indeed, Brother. As noted by Pastor Zeke in his excellent sermon on this subject, a life is sacred only if God decides so.
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Default Re: Is God pro-life? - 06-17-2019, 11:58 AM

Quote:
I was reading my Bible the other month and noticed that during the Great Flood God did not spare women who were carrying unborn babies. He killed the fetuses stone cold dead in the womb. Probably death by oxygen starvation or possibly a convulsing miscarriage into the cold water, followed by drowning. I really need to brush up on that aspect of medicine. Is it even abortion if you kill the mother? I don't think so. Anyway it doesn't matter.

I think what God meant to say when He wrote the Bible was that He is pro-life with certain exceptions for example mass killing of sinners or killing the mother at the same time or just before. This is completely compatible with President Trump's strong and consistent convictions about abortion:

“As most people know, and for those who would like to know, I am strongly Pro-Life, with the three exceptions – Rape, Incest and protecting the Life of the mother – the same position taken by Ronald Reagan”

“We must stick together and Win for Life in 2020,” Trump added. “If we are foolish and do not stay UNITED as one, all of our hard fought gains for Life can, and will, rapidly disappear!”

What this means is that we should continue to vote Republican regardless of any specific issues, including abortion - on which they are completely consistent Biblically - but even if it appears they are not, they are. Life begins at 40. No abortion. Reagan/Trump 2020.
I'm probably missing the point here, but say someone decides aged 39 they're a zebra and looks for zebrotic skin transplants. Now obviously they'd need anti-rejection zebra-injections but does that make them really a zebra? Surely if they were a zebra they wouldn't need injections?

What about if they discern their "true identity" during infancy (a great big slobbering Great Dane say or a pea-hen or something) weren't they "born that way?" And if they're a Great Dane injections notwithstanding to what extent do they have human rights?

Christians know the answer.

Secularists do not.
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Default Re: Is God pro-life? - 06-18-2019, 11:51 PM

I’m pretty sure god is pro life. He doesn’t want the little innocents burning.


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Default Re: Is God pro-life? - 06-19-2019, 03:43 AM

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Originally Posted by Wavington View Post
I’m pretty sure god is pro life. He doesn’t want the little innocents burning.
Then with His omnipotence and omniscience, why doesn't He work it out that women who would abort their children don't get pregnant, because He could totally do that?



"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." George Orwell
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Default Re: Is God pro-life? - 06-19-2019, 04:08 AM

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Originally Posted by Wavington View Post
I’m pretty sure god is pro life. He doesn’t want the little innocents burning.
How are you defining "innocents"
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Default Re: Is God pro-life? - 06-19-2019, 04:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavington View Post
I’m pretty sure god is pro life. He doesn’t want the little innocents burning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MitzaLizalor View Post
How are you defining "innocents"
Exactly, Sister Mitza. Little babies born to heathen parents are definitely not innocent. That's why God did not hesitate to kill little babies in the flood, and that's why He gives us detailed provisions on how to dispose of heathen babies during war. A sword is a good choice, but where swords are unavailable bashing babies' heads into rocks is a good option as well (Hosea 13:16, Psalm 137:9).

God also tells us that people who decide to be wicked, do so while still in the womb:

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

In fact, the only people who can call themselves innocent are True Christians™ who have been born again and properly baptized. Nobody else is innocent. We are all born sinners due to the original sin, and only a proper baptism (dunking not sprinkling, consenting adult and not a clueless baby) can make us innocent.
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Default Re: Is God pro-life? - 06-20-2019, 09:41 AM

Infant baptism is almost certainly blasphemous. Christ's baptism is described very well:
Mark 1
9-10 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him.

Luke 3
21-22a Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him.

John 1
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
32-33 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 3
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him.
John the Baptist identified a major difference between his own form of baptism (ordained by God as we read in verse 33 of John chapter 1) and that of Christ. Firstly it is an act of will. John sought to dissuade Jesus but Jesus insisted. John, the first Baptist, knew the nature of baptism was about to change. No infant could make this decision. Secondly it involves understanding the reason why baptism is necessary. Although born vile, few babies would appreciate that fact. Even babies who did appreciate their revolting nature would not have the words to say so. Language has to be learned and they couldn't express a preference one way or the other. Thirdly, the empty ritual described as "baptism" by false churches can not possibly involve The Holy Spirit because of reasons one and two, above. And yet this is the defining characteristic Christian baptism. To deny it surely counts as blasphemy and declaring as "Christian" a ritual where The Holy Spirit cannot be present is certainly denying it.

Whether the baby is participating in the blasphemy is doubtful due to its having no idea what is taking place. Subsequent indoctrination may persuade it that it's a Christian but for that outcome, conversion is necessary.


Sprinkling as such may not be blasphemous. In locations where there isn't any water, for instance, sprinkling could be all that's available. Very often water will be imported and sufficient quantities for immersion would be prohibitively expensive. Again, and we're talking about exceptional circumstances here, a battlefield conversion with death imminent rules out immersion but could a few drops of any available liquid be used? The Pastors would be able to advise here.

Without wishing to advocate for papism in any way, they do say that in exceptional circumstances anyone (which includes protestant laypersons) may perform baptism. To what extent would a similar principle apply for Baptists?

Quote:
Can. 850
Baptism is administered according to the order prescribed in the approved liturgical books, except in case of urgent necessity when only those things required for the validity of the sacrament must be observed.
Can. 853
Apart from a case of necessity, the water to be used in conferring baptism must be blessed according to the prescripts of the liturgical books.
Can. 861
§1. The ordinary minister of baptism is a bishop, a presbyter, or a deacon, without prejudice to the prescript of can. 530, n. 1.
§2. When an ordinary minister is absent or impeded, a catechist or another person designated for this function by the local ordinary, or in a case of necessity any person with the right intention, confers baptism licitly. Pastors of souls, especially the pastor of a parish, are to be concerned that the Christian faithful are taught the correct way to baptize.
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Sinner Re: Is God pro-life? - 06-25-2019, 02:20 PM

Of course, God it pro life. He wants everyone who has a soul to have an opportunity (using Free Will) to make the right choice and devote themselves to a lifetime of praying to Him. Those that make the wrong choice are met with disease, deformity and the lucky ones a merciful death.
Leviticus 20:23 And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

Leviticus 26:30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

Deuteronomy 32:19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

Psalm 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalm 5:6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Psalm 10:3 For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.

Psalm 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psalm 53:5 There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.

Psalm 73:20 As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.

Psalm 78:59 When God heard this, he was wroth, and greatly abhorred Israel:

Psalm 106:40 Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance.

Proverbs 6:16-19 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Proverbs 22:14 The mouth of strange women is a deep pit: he that is abhorred of the LORD shall fall therein.

Lamentations 2:6 And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.

Hosea 9:15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.

Amos 5:21 I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.

Zechariah 11:8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.

Malachi 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Revelation 2:6; 15 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.


Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
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Default Re: Is God pro-life? - 06-26-2019, 09:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Hutchins View Post
Proverbs 6:16-19 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
The portion I've highlighted very well describes the false invitation to life made by "clergymen" who have studied The Bible and know the words of Jesus quite well. What are they doing other than attempting to revoke the freedom of choice ordained by God from the moment of Adam's creation?

By insinuating that "christening" babies turns them into Christians by magic—and that is. what they're saying because the baby certainly hasn't done anything—they are sowing the worst possible discord. Whatever happens to the baby in no way complies with what The Bible teaches concerning Salvation. Thus the baby has not been saved. Those lying tongues go on to assure the child as it grows into an infant and so on that in fact it has. been saved and sometimes that a simple act of confirmation is all that's required to get into heaven. Jesus never said that.

As I see it, "confirmation" is to confirm something that's already taken place as still being in force. That would be whatever happened to the baby viz., NOTHING. By deceiving the young adult in this way, freewill is taken away because they live on in the delusion that they've been Redeemed.

Why is it a delusion? Because it was achieved without ever making a decision for Christ other than whatever decision the baby took. Confirming an "earlier decision" is not actually a decision itself.

On the other hand, we could look at it from the clergyman's point of view and allow for the purpose of this paragraph that he actually believes what he preaches. A baby arrives for christening or baptism or whatever they call it. Surely not even the most geriatric vicar or parish priest or orthodox patriarch believes the baby has any choice in the matter, indeed from their wails on occasion it would seem they actually don't. want to be involved! Then they squirt water on it or dunk it in the font or whatever they do and (assuming that magic is not being invoked) BINGO! the thing transforms into a Christian. By taking away its freedom to decide for itself. Freewill is denied.

No-one who reads The Bible and accepts what is taught in its pages would make those mistakes. An ignorant parent could perhaps be deceived but for someone who's actually studied The Bible, there is no excuse. It's deception just as Proverbs says.

Christians choose life.
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Default Re: Is God pro-life? - 06-27-2019, 01:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MitzaLizalor View Post
The portion I've highlighted very well describes the false invitation to life made by "clergymen" who have studied The Bible and know the words of Jesus quite well. What are they doing other than attempting to revoke the freedom of choice ordained by God from the moment of Adam's creation?

By insinuating that "christening" babies turns them into Christians by magic—and that is. what they're saying because the baby certainly hasn't done anything—they are sowing the worst possible discord. Whatever happens to the baby in no way complies with what The Bible teaches concerning Salvation. Thus the baby has not been saved. Those lying tongues go on to assure the child as it grows into an infant and so on that in fact it has. been saved and sometimes that a simple act of confirmation is all that's required to get into heaven. Jesus never said that.

As I see it, "confirmation" is to confirm something that's already taken place as still being in force. That would be whatever happened to the baby viz., NOTHING. By deceiving the young adult in this way, freewill is taken away because they live on in the delusion that they've been Redeemed.

Why is it a delusion? Because it was achieved without ever making a decision for Christ other than whatever decision the baby took. Confirming an "earlier decision" is not actually a decision itself.

On the other hand, we could look at it from the clergyman's point of view and allow for the purpose of this paragraph that he actually believes what he preaches. A baby arrives for christening or baptism or whatever they call it. Surely not even the most geriatric vicar or parish priest or orthodox patriarch believes the baby has any choice in the matter, indeed from their wails on occasion it would seem they actually don't. want to be involved! Then they squirt water on it or dunk it in the font or whatever they do and (assuming that magic is not being invoked) BINGO! the thing transforms into a Christian. By taking away its freedom to decide for itself. Freewill is denied.

No-one who reads The Bible and accepts what is taught in its pages would make those mistakes. An ignorant parent could perhaps be deceived but for someone who's actually studied The Bible, there is no excuse. It's deception just as Proverbs says.

Christians choose life.
The very idea of Christening babies is absurd.

Not having the cognitive ability to freely make the choice about Heaven or Hell, they have an undeveloped, super dense soul, a mass of over 100X the density of lead (I studied this at college). This super mass causes babies to sink like stones when laid in a river. So attempting to Christen babies is pure MURDER, plain and simple. I, as a good True Christian™ simply will not stand for such idiotic behavior.



So let's band together and stop these senseless killings.


Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
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Default Re: Is God pro-life? - 06-27-2019, 03:27 AM

I have no recollection of those unthinking depths because, obviously, I was unthinking. Time does take longer to pass the farther back we go—at age 5 a year is only ⅕ of a lifetime whereas at age 3 it's fully ⅓ of a lifetime and so on—but eventually the child emerges into a slow zone where years are virtually infinite (but not as infinite as a year would seem a month before one was born or even before one's parents were born) anyway eventually joined-up-thinking becomes possible. At least it does for Christians.

Here is where I always object when "christenings" occur. As you said, no decision is possible. My earlier post was not very clear. Here is a summary:

Clergy who attempt infant baptism by any means intercept free will in two ways.
ONE - by making the decision themselves
TWO - by promoting the belief that no decision is required
Whether or not they're successful in thwarting the critical decision is a moot point as is what happens to "christened" babies who never undergo confirmation. According to the clergy that is. Not according to me. I don't have an opinion because I can read The Bible.

Catholics, Anglicans, Cooneyites, Plymouth brethren and so on can all become Christians and some who decide to read The Bible have actually done so. But mostly thy don't. Their free will was effectively taken away. The Bible regards this as worse than death.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
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Default Re: Is God pro-life? - 07-01-2019, 12:03 AM

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Originally Posted by MitzaLizalor View Post
How are you defining "innocents"
Well just the babies that did not have a chance in any way. So what you are saying is the babies have to suffer for their parents failures?


I love the lord
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Love Jesus Re: Is God pro-life? - 07-01-2019, 01:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavington View Post
Well just the babies that did not have a chance in any way. So what you are saying is the babies have to suffer for their parents failures?
Of course the babies (who are far from innocent - they for instance are highly egoistical) have to suffer for the failures of their ancestors. This is one of the things that is stated most clearly in the Good KJV!

Numbers 14:18
The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation
.

Sin is hereditary and unless a baby has four generations of ancestors who have not committed even the tiniest sin (albeit all sins are equally disastrous and equally huge except one; James 2:10). I urge you to find a dynasty that is that immaculate (We do have our pastor line of Ezekiel Flint - Lamentations Flint etc. That would come close). Of course, if there is even one bastard, Ammonite or Moabite in the family, the babies will have to suffer for that failure of their ancestors for even longer (Deuteronomy 23:2-3). Babies are destined to Hell unless they gain the wits to Repent (Acts 2:38) and understand the deep depravity of their existence and avoid the unforgivable sin (Matthew 12:31) in the meantime.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer


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Default Re: Is God pro-life? - 07-01-2019, 01:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavington View Post
So what you are saying is the babies have to suffer for their parents failures?
Yes, Miss Wavington, that is true; very true, indeed. I know it must come as a great shock to you, even though dear Brother White has explained it so thoroughly. Now, here is another instance of where the good issues a similar command:

Isaiah 14:21 "Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities."

I realize this might not be your idea of love, but I must remind you that you are in no position to question the Authority of the Almighty.

Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

A pleasant evening to you, Miss Wavington,
Sincerely, Isabella W.



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Default Re: Is God pro-life? - 07-02-2019, 02:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavington
Quote:
Originally Posted by MitzaLizalor

How are you defining "innocents"
Well just the babies that did not have a chance in any way. So what you are saying is the babies have to suffer for their parents failures?
This point had already been covered in MY EARLIER POST:

Quote:


I have no recollection of those unthinking depths because, obviously, I was unthinking. Time does take longer to pass the farther back we go—at age 5 a year is only ⅕ of a lifetime whereas at age 3 it's fully ⅓ of a lifetime and so on—but eventually the child emerges into a slow zone where years are virtually infinite (but not as infinite as a year would seem a month before one was born or even before one's parents were born) anyway eventually joined-up-thinking becomes possible. At least it does for Christians.

Here is where I always object when "christenings" occur. As you said, no decision is possible. My earlier post was not very clear. Here is a summary:

Clergy who attempt infant baptism by any means intercept free will in two ways.
ONE - by making the decision themselves
TWO - by promoting the belief that no decision is required
Whether or not they're successful in thwarting the critical decision is a moot point as is what happens to "christened" babies who never undergo confirmation. According to the clergy that is. Not according to me.
I don't have an opinion because I can read The Bible.

Catholics, Anglicans, Cooneyites, Plymouth brethren and so on can all become Christians and some who decide to read The Bible have actually done so. But mostly thy don't. Their free will was effectively taken away. The Bible regards this as worse than death.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
This forum is not about opinions, what I think or claim, what I would like to be true or any other irrelevant detail. God explains everything we need to know and quite often people will make all sorts of claims about "God" without ever seeming to have read what He's already told us.

I'm always happy to post Scripture. Do people just make up a "God" in their heads and then expect everything in the world to conform to their delusion? And it must be a delusion when their claims about this "God" differ so extremely from what actual God has already told us. Is ongoing revelation possible? Again, I'm not making claims but after Jesus left the world there were indeed revelations. Paul and John are two examples, the point being that when God reveals something it does not contradict something He revealed previously.

Babies suffer because of sin. Every baby is revolting to God - because of sin. Every baby deserves torture and when ancestral sins are piled on (to punish those forebears) worse is the best it can get. Only blood can atone. And not just any old blood, say from a dead ferret or something. Live human blood is all that's good enough. A human never having sinned.

That human is Jesus - a second Adam. Unbelievers don't even accept that there was a first Adam.
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