[Basilissa]

Originally Posted by Xanax

The Bible talks about "mysteries" and these are things that our human minds cannot comprehend or things that have not been revealed to us. If you read the Bible you will understand this. Job 11:7-8, “Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty? 8 They are higher than the heavens above—what can you do? They are deeper than the depths below—what can you know? "

Thank you for your answer. Yes, I agree that the Bible is filled with mysteries which we cannot comprehend with our weak rational minds, and their acceptance is the measure of our faith. The Bible says life on Earth was created in six days, while science points to millions of years. The Bible describes unicorns as real creatures. The Bible talks about a virgin giving birth. The Bible talks about pillars supporting foundations of the Earth. The Bible talks about a single God who is Three at the same time.

Accepting these things, which are contradictory to empirical evidence, is the test of our faith. These are the mysteries of the Bible which we cannot comprehend with our minds limited by rational thinking.

On the other hand, there are things in the Bible which are not so mysterious. These are rules according to which we have to live our lives in order to be Saved. That, like it ir not, includes women submitting to their husbands. There's nothing mysterious about it.

If we understand basic English, one would know that the Bible is referring to mankind when it says that man was created in the image of God. We read this in Genesis 5:1-2, "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created." Here we see that he called male and female Adam, referring to mankind.

Let me get this straight: are you saying that God is androgenous? That He is not a He but some sort of fluid gender trannie He/She?

If this is what you think, then you are hovering dangerously close to blasphemy. I will pray that God may forgive you.

If, on the other hand, you agree with me that God created Adam, not Eve, in His Image, you will also agree that God is a He. Not some sort of gender fluid non-binary non-cis whatever new names they come up with every single day.

Love has every thing to do with it. Husbands are suppose to love their wives as Christ loved the Church and gave His life for the Church.

Yes. Jesus loves us so much that He will condemn us to burn in Hell forever if we offend Him in one single point (James 2:10).

And I agree, husbands also should be vengeful towards their wives who offend them in a single point (e.g., the soup was too salty). That's what the Christian Domestic Discipline is all about.

This kind of Agape love is not the same kind of love as you are implying. If men are suppose to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, how much should men sacrifice themselves for their wives as Christ sacrificed Himself.

Men do sacrifice themselves every day. They listen (or at least pretend to listen) to their wives meaningless chatter and endless whining. That's a sacrifice, just like Jesus' temporary death! On a smaller scale, of course, because men have limited lives while Jesus is an eternal being, so the sacrifices made have to be accordingly smaller.

It is a two way relationship. As the Bible says the two become one flesh. If they become one flesh, does this not imply equality if they are viewed as one.

So to clarify, for you, SUBMISSION = EQUALITY?

Here are the verses again for your reference:

Ephesians 5:22-24
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

[Xanax]

Originally Posted by Basilissa

Thank you for your answer. Yes, I agree that the Bible is filled with mysteries which we cannot comprehend with our weak rational minds, and their acceptance is the measure of our faith. The Bible says life on Earth was created in six days, while science points to millions of years. The Bible describes unicorns as real creatures. The Bible talks about a virgin giving birth. The Bible talks about pillars supporting foundations of the Earth. The Bible talks about a single God who is Three at the same time.

Accepting these things, which are contradictory to empirical evidence, is the test of our faith. These are the mysteries of the Bible which we cannot comprehend with our minds limited by rational thinking.

On the other hand, there are things in the Bible which are not so mysterious. These are rules according to which we have to live our lives in order to be Saved. That, like it ir not, includes women submitting to their husbands. There's nothing mysterious about it.

Yes, women are suppose to submit to their husbands, but a wife cannot truly submit to their husbands without love. And husbands cannot truly love their wives without respecting them. It is a two way relationship, as the Bible says that, "the two become one flesh." And if we read Ephesians 5:21, "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." We are suppose to submit to one another. This is why it is important to read the whole passage when trying to understand verses.

Originally Posted by Basilissa

Let me get this straight: are you saying that God is androgenous? That He is not a He but some sort of fluid gender trannie He/She?

If this is what you think, then you are hovering dangerously close to blasphemy. I will pray that God may forgive you.

If, on the other hand, you agree with me that God created Adam, not Eve, in His Image, you will also agree that God is a He. Not some sort of gender fluid non-binary non-cis whatever new names they come up with every single day.

You are bringing up things that have nothing to do with the issue at hand. The Bible clearly says that He created man and woman in His image. In Genesis 1:27, when it says that God created man in His image, it is referring to mankind, not just men. We read this in Genesis 5:1-2, "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created." Please try to explain your way out of this passage. In this passage we see God creating man in His image and we know that He is referring to mankind (both male and female) because the passage even specifies by saying that He called THEIR name ADAM.

Originally Posted by Basilissa

And I agree, husbands also should be vengeful towards their wives who offend them in a single point (e.g., the soup was too salty). That's what the Christian Domestic Discipline is all about.

So to clarify, for you, SUBMISSION = EQUALITY?

Where in the Bible does it say that men can discipline their wives. If they do something wrong, they can correct their wives, just as a wife can correct their husband if they do something wrong. You beliefs on what a marriage is all about is not biblical at all.

What I am saying is SUBMISSION = LOVE in a marriage relationship, if you respect someone, you will love them and if you love someone you will respect them.

[Basilissa]

Originally Posted by Xanax

Yes, women are suppose to submit to their husbands, but a wife cannot truly submit to their husbands without love.

Why? I am going to help you by providing you som examples of submission without love:

1) Think of a teacher in school you really hate or fear or despise for whatever reason. You don't love this teacher, yet you have to submit to everything what he or she tells you to do, or you won't pass the class.

2) Think of the most idiotic law or ordinance in your vicinity (there must be some law you disagree with). You don't necessarily hate it, but you don't like it. You think it's dumb. Nonetheless, you have to submit to this law or face fines or other legal consequences.

3) Think of a workplace where the boss is a total dumbass. You know he's an idiot, everyone else knows he's an idiot, but you have to shut your mouth and follow his nonsensical orders, otherwise you might lose this job.

So, that's the thing with submission. There is no implied meaning of love there. Just following orders out of fear of negative consequences if you don't.

And husbands cannot truly love their wives without respecting them.

Why?

And if we read Ephesians 5:21, "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." We are suppose to submit to one another. This is why it is important to read the whole passage when trying to understand verses.

Indeed it is. If you read the whole chapter carefully, you will notice that verse Eph 5:22 is the first time the word "wives" appears in this chapter. That means rules for the wives begin at this verse. That means Eph 5:21 does not relate to behavior within a mariage, but within the Christian community in general - you know, the thing Paul is discussing in the previous verses.

You are bringing up things that have nothing to do with the issue at hand. The Bible clearly says that He created man and woman in His image. In Genesis 1:27, when it says that God created man in His image, it is referring to mankind, not just men. We read this in Genesis 5:1-2, "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created." Please try to explain your way out of this passage. In this passage we see God creating man in His image and we know that He is referring to mankind (both male and female) because the passage even specifies by saying that He called THEIR name ADAM.

There are two interesting things to note in this passage:

1) Eve is so completely meaningless that it is OK that the first couple goes just by the man's name.

2). While Genesis 5:2 describes both male and female, and uses plural version of pronouns (them) to describe creation and blessing of the first couple, Genesis 5:1 talks only about one man and uses singular pronoun (him). That tells you, again, that while God created both male and female, only male is created in God's image.

Where in the Bible does it say that men can discipline their wives. If they do something wrong, they can correct their wives, just as a wife can correct their husband if they do something wrong. You beliefs on what a marriage is all about is not biblical at all.

It's not mine. Go ahead, google "Christian Domestic Discipline." To me personally, a lot of that stuff gets rather close to some kinky BDSM stuff, but many Christians do it.

What I am saying is SUBMISSION = LOVE in a marriage relationship, if you respect someone, you will love them and if you love someone you will respect them.

Well, then we cannot reach an agreement because you are using a non-standard meaning of the word "submission."

[Joanna Lytton-Vasey]

Originally Posted by Xanax

What I am saying is SUBMISSION = LOVE in a marriage relationship, if you respect someone, you will love them and if you love someone you will respect them.

As Sister Basilissa has explained so much better than I ever could, submission does not mean either love or respect. Submission is the act of allowing someone to have power over you. This can be willing (as in the case of a joyous, productive Christian marriage) or unwilling (as in the case of, say, a conquered country).


As it happens, I am very fortunate in my marriage: I both love and respect my husband, so submission is easy. I believe that my husband is fond of me in return - he certainly treats me with more consideration than I deserve. I would expect to lose his affection if he thought for one single moment that I did not respect him, or if I ceased to submit to him. Obviously I don't expect him to respect me or "submit" to me! That would just be absurd.

[liberalnightmare]

Men are pigs. If society were ran by women there would be no war, murder, violence, or ignorance. Want world peace? Exterminate men!

[Brother Gonzalez]

Originally Posted by liberalnightmare

Men are pigs. If society were ran by women there would be no war, murder, violence, or ignorance. Want world peace? Exterminate men!

We can agree to some extent here. To achieve world peace, we need to exterminate some men. Unfaithful men, non Christians.


And we can exterminate them all by converting them to Christianity! PRAISE THE LORD!

[Basilissa]

Originally Posted by liberalnightmare

Men are pigs. If society were ran by women there would be no war, murder, violence, or ignorance. Want world peace? Exterminate men!

Empress Catherine the Great, Queen Bloody Mary, Indira Gandhi, Margaret Thatcher are just few historical examples which prove you wrong.

Nonetheless, I do agree with your basic premise that eliminating either one of the sexes would bring world peace, eventually - simply because with no way to procreate, humans would die out, and afterwards, Earth would be peaceful.

[Xanax]

Originally Posted by Basilissa

Indeed it is. If you read the whole chapter carefully, you will notice that verse Eph 5:22 is the first time the word "wives" appears in this chapter. That means rules for the wives begin at this verse. That means Eph 5:21 does not relate to behavior within a mariage, but within the Christian community in general - you know, the thing Paul is discussing in the previous verses.

Ephesians 5:21 is referring to a marriage relationship. And even if it does not, my point still remains. We are suppose to submit to one another. There is no gender specification here. Therefore we can conclude that both men and women are suppose to submit to each other. As it is not disregarding a marriage relationship, we can assume that this is also required for a marriage relationship. God requires that husbands and wives respect and love each other.

We even see a godly marriage in the lives of Aquila and Priscilla. Whenever they are mentioned they are ALWAYS mentioned together and never apart. Also in the Bible, more than half the time Priscilla's name is mentioned before Aquila's. This is highly unusual when looking at the time period of when they lived and when the Bible was written. The husbands name was always recorded before the wife's name. But in this case, the wife name is recorded before her husbands. Again this promotes the idea of equality in a marriage.

Originally Posted by Basilissa

There are two interesting things to note in this passage:

1) Eve is so completely meaningless that it is OK that the first couple goes just by the man's name.

2). While Genesis 5:2 describes both male and female, and uses plural version of pronouns (them) to describe creation and blessing of the first couple, Genesis 5:1 talks only about one man and uses singular pronoun (him). That tells you, again, that while God created both male and female, only male is created in God's image.

So your first point is completely useless. The verse is specifically saying that Adam and Eve can be referred to as Adam. Thus, we can conclude that when the word "man" is used in this context, it is referring to both male and female. Also, if we look at Genesis 1:26-27, " Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over [g]all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." We see that verse 26 is plural and referring to both male and female, this plurality is continued in verse 26 when it says that God created man in His image. Verse 27 completes the verses by going back to plural. Thus, male and female are created in God's image.

Also, I would like to bring up Deborah again. She is the perfect example emphasizing the equality of men and women. It does not matter if she is the only female judge in the book of Judges. The point is she was there and appointed by God, unless you think that God made a mistake by including her in the Bible. You cannot ignore her, just because she does not fit into your opinion and view of women. Deborah as a great leader of men, as she commanded and instructed men and the military of the time. We see many other strong women leaders throughout the Bible. All scripture is important and you cannot ignore parts that you do not like.

[Xanax]

Originally Posted by liberalnightmare

Men are pigs. If society were ran by women there would be no war, murder, violence, or ignorance. Want world peace? Exterminate men!

Ummm... I don't think so. We see Queen Jezebel in the Bible. She was a murderer and did not follow God's ways at all. We also see Queen Ester, who was a godly women who saved her people. Women leaders would have been just as bad or good the male leaders.

[Basilissa]

Originally Posted by Xanax

Ephesians 5:21 is referring to a marriage relationship. And even if it does not, my point still remains. We are suppose to submit to one another. There is no gender specification here. Therefore we can conclude that both men and women are suppose to submit to each other.

You can read it any way you want it, but it won't make it true. You have to read the Bible keeping in mind its context. It's like with the Declaration of Independence. When it says "all men are created equal," you have to understand its historical context to truly comprehend what it means. It doesn't include women, because women in 18th century were regarded as child-like and unable to think for themselves. It doesn't include non-white men, because in the 18th century a black person was merely worth 3/5 of a white person. Even poor white men were not included as part of "all men" because they were considered dumb. Hence, "All men are created equal" should be read as "All white rich men are created equal."

It's the same thing with the Bible. You have to look at the context. As I and others have shown you with countless examples, the Bible repeatedly says that women are inferior to men. Hence, submitting to one another refers to those who are considered equal in the community - that is, males only.

We even see a godly marriage in the lives of Aquila and Priscilla. Whenever they are mentioned they are ALWAYS mentioned together and never apart. Also in the Bible, more than half the time Priscilla's name is mentioned before Aquila's. This is highly unusual when looking at the time period of when they lived and when the Bible was written. The husbands name was always recorded before the wife's name. But in this case, the wife name is recorded before her husbands. Again this promotes the idea of equality in a marriage.

If that were true, then why Apostle Paul women have to shut up and submit to their husbands the same way their husbands submit to Jesus?

Why doesn't the Bible actually say, somewhere, anywhere, that men and women are equal? Why does it only say the opposite?

So your first point is completely useless. The verse is specifically saying that Adam and Eve can be referred to as Adam. Thus, we can conclude that when the word "man" is used in this context, it is referring to both male and female.

Look again at where plurar and where singular forms are used.

Also, if we look at Genesis 1:26-27, " Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over [g]all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." We see that verse 26 is plural and referring to both male and female, this plurality is continued in verse 26 when it says that God created man in His image. Verse 27 completes the verses by going back to plural. Thus, male and female are created in God's image.

For your convenience, I highlighted the passages where the Bible uses singular/male only rather than plural/both sexes form.

Also, you still have not explained to me, how do imagine this "women are also God's image" thing.

In your opinion, is God androgynous? Both male and female? Both our Father and our Mother?

Also, I would like to bring up Deborah again.

We already talked about this so I won't bother repeating myself.

All scripture is important and you cannot ignore parts that you do not like.

Please do follow your own advice. It really is a very good one.

[Joanna Lytton-Vasey]

Ephesians 5:21 is referring to a marriage relationship. And even if it does not, my point still remains. We are suppose to submit to one another. There is no gender specification here.

By "gender" do you mean sex, as in man and woman, male and female? If so, it would be helpful to say so. I know you teenagers like to appear "woke" and claim that men in cheap dresses and bad wigs are women, but the Bible (KJV) has nothing to say about the entirely invented nonsense of "gender". The KJV uses the word only as a verb, meaning either to beget or to engender, i.e. to cause or incite.

Thank you.

[Xanax]

Originally Posted by Basilissa

It's the same thing with the Bible. You have to look at the context. As I and others have shown you with countless examples, the Bible repeatedly says that women are inferior to men. Hence, submitting to one another refers to those who are considered equal in the community - that is, males only.
If that were true, then why Apostle Paul women have to shut up and submit to their husbands the same way their husbands submit to Jesus?

Yes and in the context of the Bible, we know that God considers male and female equal in made in His image. Just because your view of it is not Biblical does not make it so. And Ephesians 5:21 is not referring to men only, because the passage is speaking of husbands and wives in later verses. So we can assume Paul is addressing both men and women. In addition when Paul says wives to remain silent in the Church in Corinthians, it is because the church of Corinth was in chaos. Women were not submitting to church authority and speaking in tongues was out of control as no one was interpreting it. Obviously this is not the case for all wives because we see Paul saying that women can prophecy and pray in the church and he also commends numerous women for their service in the church in Romans 16. So clearly he respects women and their contributions to the church.

Originally Posted by Basilissa

Why doesn't the Bible actually say, somewhere, anywhere, that men and women are equal? Why does it only say the opposite?

The Bible also NEVER says that men are better than men or vise versa, because they are equal in the sight of God.

Originally Posted by Basilissa

Look again at where plurar and where singular forms are used.

I think you need to re-read this verse. Genesis 1:26-27, " Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let THEM have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over [g]all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. " In verse we see God saying let us create man in our image, according to our likeness and let THEM have dominion, showing that 'man' is plural in this context.

Originally Posted by Basilissa

We already talked about this so I won't bother repeating myself.

Again we see you ignoring Deborah because you have no answer to retaliate it. God used a woman to lead His people and command the army. Don't ignore her because of your opinions. Follow the Bible!

[Basilissa]

Originally Posted by Xanax

Yes and in the context of the Bible, we know that God considers male and female equal in made in His image.

I will refer you to my last post in the other thread where you keep repeating the same lies again and again: https://www.landoverbaptist.net/show...16#post1241616

In addition when Paul says wives to remain silent in the Church in Corinthians, it is because the church of Corinth was in chaos.

Why doesn't he say so? Why is he speaking in such way that it sounds like something applicable to all listeners?

So clearly he respects women and their contributions to the church.

Again, I will let you review my answer in the other thread. I'm tired of repeating the Bible verses and you repeating that the Bible doesn't mean what it says.

The Bible also NEVER says that men are better than men or vise versa, because they are equal in the sight of God.

So why doesn't the Bible actually says that?

I think you need to re-read this verse. Genesis 1:26-27, " Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let THEM have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over [g]all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. " In verse we see God saying let us create man in our image, according to our likeness and let THEM have dominion, showing that 'man' is plural in this context.

Of course women also have dominion over animals. Otherwise, men would have to be killing all chickens for supper. That is not a part where we disagree.

Again we see you ignoring Deborah because you have no answer to retaliate it.

I did, sweetie, but you keep ignoring my answers. Sure, God liked Deborah, He also liked Hitler and Stalin (since He allowed them to slay millions). What's your point?

[refridgerator]

If they are object, then I can sell them for good?

[Xanax]

Originally Posted by Basilissa

I will refer you to my last post in the other thread where you keep repeating the same lies again and again: https://www.landoverbaptist.net/show...16#post1241616

Whether you like it or not, men and women are equal. If you deny this, then you will have to answer to God because you are not following God's view of man and woman. That's it. Your points are not valid at all, because the Bible NEVER says that men and women are not equal. As you asked me, I can ask you why God never once said plainly that men are better than women.

Originally Posted by Basilissa

Of course women also have dominion over animals. Otherwise, men would have to be killing all chickens for supper. That is not a part where we disagree.

I am not talking about women also having dominion over animals. I am saying the whole verse is plural. Let us read Genisis 1:26 again, "Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over [g]all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” Since this whole verse is clearly plural, because when God says let us create 'man' in our image, He then uses the word 'them' when saying let them have dominoin over... Who is 'them' referring to? It is clearly referring to man. Therefore by logic, we can clearly say that man is plural in this sense, referring to both man and woman.

Originally Posted by Basilissa

I did, sweetie, but you keep ignoring my answers. Sure, God liked Deborah, He also liked Hitler and Stalin (since He allowed them to slay millions). What's your point?

I already did explain this, but I will do it again in simpler terms for you. Deborah spoke on behalf of God, Hitler and Stalin did not. God loved what Deborah was doing as He chose to speak through her, but He hated what Hitler and Stalin were doing my murdering millions of lives. This is what we read in Judges 4, "She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, “The Lord, the God of Israel, commands you: ‘Go, take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead them up to Mount Tabor" Here we see God speaking through Deborah clearly. And Deborah provided Israel with 40 years of peace.

I don't know why you are so confused with the story of Deborah. Whether you liked it or not, she commanded men and lead the people of Israel and God approved of her leadership. She goes against everything you believe when it comes to men and women.

[Brother Gonzalez]

Originally Posted by refridgerator

If they are object, then I can sell them for good?

It depends on the laws of the country, but God is not opposed to that. Which shithole are you from, again? Maybe in your land that is possible.
The nigro agenda has made it illegal in the US.

[MitzaLizalor]

Originally Posted by Xanax

If you read the book of Judges, you would understand that Deborah was clearly leading the people of Isreal during this time in Israel's history.

You keep saying this but have produced no supporting material. Modernist "translations" (such as the NIV) just make up words to suit their agenda or leave out inconvenient passages altogether. Nowhere in the original languages is Deborah referred to as a leader. Indeed Judges chapters 4 & 5 does not use the word at all except insofar as Barak leads his captives out. This is clearer in the Hebrew than the Greek and although the Masoretic Text dating from about a thousand years ago gives us a complete Hebrew version of Judges (and does not describe Deborah as a leader but rather as judging Israel) there are earlier records from Qumran, perhaps a thousand years earlier. The passage itself, especially Judges 5, is much earlier of course.

Leadership of Israel as a nation, or as a confederation of tribes if you prefer, belonged to God. Not only is this explicit but God is forthright in explaining that adopting "a leader" would be something of a C-minus. solution to a problem which didn't really exist. God juxtaposes the concepts of JUDGING and REIGNING which I'll highlight in yellow for you and include full context including why the people were dissatisfied with how the system of judges was going. (Obviously smaller concerns such as businesses or military establishments.—.even if thrown together on an ad hoc basis.—.would have management requirements but you were not referring to those.)

-I Samuel 8:1-22a
–1 When Samuel was old.….he made his sons judges over Israel.
–2 Now the name of his firstborn was Joel; and the name of his second, Abiah: they were judges in Beersheba.
–3 And his sons walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre, and took bribes, and perverted judgment.
-4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
–5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
-6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
-7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
–8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.
-9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.
10 And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king.
11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.
12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.
13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.
14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.
15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.
16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.
17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.
18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.
19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;
20 That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.
21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he rehearsed them in the ears of the LORD.
22 And the LORD said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king.

.• verse 4 The elders of Israel were the leaders of the tribes individually. Deborah was not one of them. She did not lead Israel, she judged Israel. The leader of Israel was God.

.• verses 6.&.7 God highlights the difference between someone who judges and someone who leads. He further explains that Israel has rejected His leadership.

.• verse 9ff Starting here, God sets out the many differences between a human leader, a King, and His own leadership. The Israelites are mistaken in thinking kings are just judges dressed up fancy with crowns and bling. Very mistaken.


The Israelites were mistaken about all sorts of things. The Bible sets out some of those mistakes which we can contrast with The Truth as explained by Jesus. It wasn't one "truth" back then and a different "truth" when Jesus arrived. God is particularly lucid on this topic and took steps to quash such error. For your next post, perhaps you could present one such action taken by God?

In the meantime, if you're interested in Judges and some of the language used, here's “The Qumran Scrolls of the Book of Judges: Literary Formation, Textual Criticism, and Historical Linguistics” as a pdf from the Journal of Hebrew Scriptures.

http://www.jhsonline.org/Articles/article_182.pdf

[Basilissa]

Originally Posted by Xanax

Whether you like it or not, men and women are equal. If you deny this, then you will have to answer to God because you are not following God's view of man and woman. That's it. Your points are not valid at all, because the Bible NEVER says that men and women are not equal.

I see you missed the verses I provided in my latest reply to your post in the other thread.

Here they are again, for your convenience. I have expanded the commentary a bit:

Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
(Women were created to assist men. We already taked about this, and your explanation that a "helper" is equal to the person who is being helped does not make sense.)

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
(We talked about this one too; Eve, the first woman, is to submit to her husband and so are all her female descendants as we all inherit the original sin. We can prove it very easily - even today women feel pain during pregnancy and labor, because the curse of Eve continues to this day).

Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
(Women are property. Less valuable than a house but more valuable than slaves and livestock.)

Matthew 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
(Jesus considers women (and children) to be property that can be sold.)

1st Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
(Note the word "every." If Paul was talking only to women of Corinth, he would have specified it. Also, please note that God is the head of Christ - so much for your thesis about equality within the Trinity)

1st Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
1st Corinthians 11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
1st Corinthians 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
(This is obvious, but here it is again: men and men only are the image and glory of God; women were created for men, as their servants).

1st Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1st Corinthians 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
(Women are too dumb to be allowed to speak in church; Paul does not specify that this applies only to women in Corinth).

1st Timothy 2:11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1st Timothy 2:12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1st Timothy 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1st Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1st Timothy 2:15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
(The only way for women to be saved is to keep their mouths shut, obey their husbands, and produce children)

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Ephesians 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
(The relation of women with their husbands is the same as the relation of the church with Christ: total obedience or you're going to Hell).

Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord
(for those who forgot Ephesians already).

Titus 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Titus 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
(Total submission again).

1st Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
(This is one of the rare instances where Peter totally agrees with Paul).

1st Peter 3:5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
1st Peter 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
(Just in case you forgot, here's subjection again).

As you asked me, I can ask you why God never once said plainly that men are better than women.

I hope the verses provided above satisfy your curiosity.

Let us read Genisis 1:26 again, "Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;

Man. Man only. Compare with 1 Cor 11:7.

let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over [g]all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Them - man and woman.

I already did explain this, but I will do it again in simpler terms for you. Deborah spoke on behalf of God, Hitler and Stalin did not.

You are hovering dangerously close to blasphemy, dear. Hitler and Stalin were as much children of God, doing His bidding, as your beloved Deborah.

Here is the evidence. The Holy Bible teaches us that God creates both good and evil:

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

This verse is the very foundation of Christian faith, this is what separates Christianity from polytheistic religions. In many religions, there is a separate deity that creates mayhem. However, Christians believe that there is only one God, and that means He alone is responsible for both all the good and all the bad that happens.

This is reinforced in Amos:

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?

God loved what Deborah was doing as He chose to speak through her, but He hated what Hitler and Stalin were doing my murdering millions of lives.

If He hated what they were doing, He would have stricken them with a lightning, or gave them a crippling disease, or even killed them in their infancy, long before they got to do mayhem.

Yet, He did not. In the light of the verses cited above, that means that Hitler and Stalin were sent by God to kill and torture. The Bible calls people like that wasters - people created by God as His tool of destruction:

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

This is what we read in Judges 4, "She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, “The Lord, the God of Israel, commands you: ‘Go, take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead them up to Mount Tabor"

Please note that she was not the one commanding here. She was merely a conduit, passing God's command to leaders of Israel.

Originally Posted by MitzaLizalor

You keep saying this but have produced no supporting material. Modernist "translations" (such as the NIV) just make up words to suit their agenda or leave out inconvenient passages altogether. Nowhere in the original languages is Deborah referred to as a leader. Indeed Judges chapters 4 & 5 does not use the word at all except insofar as Barak leads his captives out. This is clearer in the Hebrew than the Greek and although the Masoretic Text dating from about a thousand years ago gives us a complete Hebrew version of Judges (and does not describe Deborah as a leader but rather as judging Israel) there are earlier records from Qumran, perhaps a thousand years earlier. The passage itself, especially Judges 5, is much earlier of course.

Leadership of Israel as a nation, or as a confederation of tribes if you prefer, belonged to God. Not only is this explicit but God is forthright in explaining that adopting "a leader" would be something of a C-minus. solution to a problem which didn't really exist. God juxtaposes the concepts of JUDGING and REIGNING which I'll highlight in yellow for you and include full context including why the people were dissatisfied with how the system of judges was going.

Thank you Sister Mitza for this brilliant explanation.

[MitzaLizalor]

I can't take credit for something I haven't done. All that's necessary is to open The Bible and read what it says. Throughout Judges the idea that God leads Israel is paramount but it's quite evident they're aware what kings are. The Israelites often thought they knew better than God either by cooking up novel ways to obligate Him or by outright hedonism.

KING CHUSHANRISHATHAIM

Idols and revolting antics never sit well with God. The first king mentioned in Judges found The Israelites sitting ducks because they had abandoned God. Thus it's certain that they knew what a king was and could observe first hand the alternatives to accepting God. The Bible explains:

Judges 3:7-8 The children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and forgat the LORD their God, and served Baalim and the groves. Therefore the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and he sold them into the hand of Chushanrishathaim king of Mesopotamia: and the children of Israel served Chushanrishathaim eight years.

God also tells us about administrative affairs elsewhere. Later on there was some awkwardness concerning who'd be better placed to govern Sechem. As usual the Midianites had been marauding about the place or at least attempting to (some people never learn) but Gideon had stepped up to the mark, sorting them out in short order.

Judges 8:22-23 Then the men of Israel said unto Gideon, Rule thou over us, both thou, and thy son, and thy son's son also: for thou hast delivered us from the hand of Midian. And Gideon said unto them, I will not rule over you, neither shall my son rule over you: the LORD shall rule over you.

The Israelites just kept getting it wrong. The first time I put my hand in an electric light fitting and turned on the switch was also the last. The experience was short lived, well under a second, but these people were ENSLAVED FOR 8 YEARS. for doing whatever worshipping idols involves which I won't try to imagine but I'm certain it's extremely impolite and what did they do next? Once they were free? Whoring it up with idols!

Judges 8:33-34 As soon as Gideon was dead, that the children of Israel turned again, and went a whoring after Baalim, and made Baalberith their god. And the children of Israel remembered not the LORD their God, who had delivered them out of the hands of all their enemies on every side.

[MitzaLizalor]

Although very short lived, an electric shock is sufficiently unpleasant to prevent one from repeating the experiment. Imagine if I'd been carted off into slavery for 8 years! Worse things than electric shocks would be happening several times every day and probably more than once at the same. time. The Israelites endured all that as a direct result of idolatry but did they learn? No. Their understanding of The Truth was so gnarled and misshapen that they couldn't even appreciate Jesus when He came and sought to murder Him. First they tormented Him, there was a trial of some sort with dud evidence, they had Him nailed up and left Him hanging there to die.

THE KING OF TREES

Gideon's son with his concubine in Shechem thought being a local king sounded pretty cool, even though there were plenty of legitimate candidates. He targeted them for murder and got most of them but the youngest, Jotham, was able to escape. Meanwhile in Shechem there'd been a coronation. Jotham was not impressed:

Judges 9:7-14 He went and stood in the top of mount Gerizim, and lifted up his voice, and cried, and said unto them, Hearken unto me, ye men of Shechem, that God may hearken unto you. The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us. But the olive tree said unto them, Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? And the trees said to the fig tree, Come thou, and reign over us. But the fig tree said unto them, Should I forsake my sweetness, and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees? Then said the trees unto the vine, Come thou, and reign over us. And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? Then said all the trees unto the bramble, Come thou, and reign over us ......read on here

Now just as briars and brambles are a punishment from God which gardeners try to get rid of, so did Shechem try to get rid of this murderous "king" Abimelech. Rampaging around making a thorough pest of oneself tends to lose one the admiration of one's minions and in Abimelech's case of everyone else as well. Eventually they fled to a tower in the city and sure enough:

Judges 9:7-14 Abimelech came unto the tower, and fought against it, and went hard unto the door of the tower to burn it with fire. And a certain woman cast a piece of a millstone upon Abimelech's head, and all to brake his skull. Then he called hastily unto the young man his armourbearer, and said unto him, Draw thy sword, and slay me, that men say not of me, A woman slew him. And his young man thrust him through, and he died. And when the men of Israel saw that Abimelech was dead, they departed every man unto his place. Thus God rendered the wickedness of Abimelech, which he did unto his father, in slaying his seventy brethren and all the evil of the men of Shechem did God render upon their heads: and upon them came the curse of Jotham the son of Jerubbaal.

The Israelites were wrong about choosing kings for themselves. They were wrong about idols. The Israelites were wrong about all sorts of things as pointed out by Jesus who was very critical of their attempts to enforce erroneous dogma, some of which is recorded in The Old Testament where by contrasting what The Israelites thought with what Jesus taught we can identify heresy today.