[Luaera]

Originally Posted by Mary Etheldreda

Interesting. In your opinion, since you are more familiar with this "faith" than I, what discoveries into human life and nature were brought forth from paganism? What did this pagan "religion" reveal that we never knew before?

In the end the answers most likely don't differ, since the questions are essentially the same. It is more of how paganism explains e.g. the meaning of life or what happens after death that differs.

[Mary Etheldreda]

Originally Posted by Luaera

In the end the answers most likely don't differ, since the questions are essentially the same. It is more of how paganism explains e.g. the meaning of life or what happens after death that differs.

You said this "religion" helps people understand things about human life and nature. I'm asking how. How is human life understood? Is there some discovery of the magic potential in humans? Does it make a difference what race or gender one is? Is one born with magic, or does one pick it up? What about the natural world? We know about the cellular structure, you can see the cellular structure of an onion very easily under a simple microscope. What information about nature has paganism offered the world? What do we know today that we didn't know some 50 years ago when paganism was invented?

[Luaera]

Originally Posted by Mary Etheldreda

You said this "religion" helps people understand things about human life and nature. I'm asking how. How is human life understood? Is there some discovery of the magic potential in humans? Does it make a difference what race or gender one is? Is one born with magic, or does one pick it up? What about the natural world? We know about the cellular structure, you can see the cellular structure of an onion very easily under a simple microscope. What information about nature has paganism offered the world? What do we know today that we didn't know some 50 years ago when paganism was invented?

Magic potential is not something defined by race, gender, age or anything. What is called magic is your own potential to will things to happen. In practices it is more of a way to put your full heart and soul into a matter that you wish to accomplish (getting better grades in school e.g.).

And I meant questions like "What is life? Why are we here? What happens after death?". Christianity has had those answers figured out for a while, when comparing e.g. wicca that was born during 40's-60's. For example most wiccans believe that when you die you go to a place called Summerland (according to some branches of it) and there wait for your soul to be reborn.

I have not read up on all aspects of Wicca, but have a general idea about the most central beliefs.

[Mary Etheldreda]

Thank you for taking the time to help me understand.

If you don't mind, I'm still curious and would like to know more. You say,

Originally Posted by Luaera

What is called magic is your own potential to will things to happen.

If it's your own potential to will things to happen then how is that magical, and not simply your own ability to make things happen?

Originally Posted by Luaera

And I meant questions like "What is life? Why are we here? What happens after death?".

So this "religion" doesn't actually answer questions about human life or nature, as you earlier said. Perhaps you were simply repeating what you'd been told, but upon deeper reflection, you discover this claim fails to deliver.

Originally Posted by Luaera

For example most wiccans believe that when you die you go to a place called Summerland (according to some branches of it) and there wait for your soul to be reborn.

When my children were very small, they believed that when they prayed holding their hands with palms together and fingers pointed upward would act like a prayer version of a light-saber. They imagined that their prayers were shot up to Heaven through their fingertips. It's a cute idea, but foolishness they outgrew. In other words dear, just because someone believes something (even strongly), it doesn't mean it's anything more than the fantasy of an immature dreamer.

Originally Posted by Luaera

I have not read up on all aspects of Wicca, but have a general idea about the most central beliefs.

Which are what? You've already exposed "magic" for being a vague and imprecise way of saying people can do what they put their minds to. You've already pointed out the silly belief of the afterlife based on naught but lovely fantasies. What more can you share?

[FreeFromBrains]

Originally Posted by Luaera

Magic potential is not something defined by race, gender, age or anything. What is called magic is your own potential to will things to happen. In practices it is more of a way to put your full heart and soul into a matter that you wish to accomplish (getting better grades in school e.g.).

And I meant questions like "What is life? Why are we here? What happens after death?". Christianity has had those answers figured out for a while, when comparing e.g. wicca that was born during 40's-60's. For example most wiccans believe that when you die you go to a place called Summerland (according to some branches of it) and there wait for your soul to be reborn.

I have not read up on all aspects of Wicca, but have a general idea about the most central beliefs.

So are you saying magic is simply people working a bit harder at things?

[Luaera]

Originally Posted by Mary Etheldreda

If it's your own potential to will things to happen then how is that magical, and not simply your own ability to make things happen?

I have understood so much that by your will you make things change in your life through symbolic acts, words and so forth. If you want to know more about the backgrounds and details you would have to ask a more devoted Wiccan about it.

Originally Posted by Mary Etheldreda

So this "religion" doesn't actually answer questions about human life or nature, as you earlier said. Perhaps you were simply repeating what you'd been told, but upon deeper reflection, you discover this claim fails to deliver.

This is more a mistake from my side. I worded my answer incorrectly I ma afraid and the latter was more close to what I meant.

Originally Posted by Mary Etheldreda

Which are what? You've already exposed "magic" for being a vague and imprecise way of saying people can do what they put their minds to. You've already pointed out the silly belief of the afterlife based on naught but lovely fantasies. What more can you share?

There are detailed books about the symbolics, rituals and theories, but I am yet to read them since I am pretty new to Wicca still. If you wish to find more you should try finding someone who has read more than I have, I am afraid.

[Luaera]

Originally Posted by FreeFromBrains

So are you saying magic is simply people working a bit harder at things?

According to Wicca it is a way to bend the energies of the world to help you achieve something. (Though you prevent bad things from happening by casting a circle, etc, but that is also something that I have very few details about how it actually works and where the tradition comes from originally. There are a lot of aspects to magic, preparations, fail safes etc.)

But the world won't serve things for you on a silverplate, you still have to do some worrk yourself, though your magic will give you a little push on the way.

[Mary Etheldreda]

Originally Posted by Luaera

If you wish to find more you should try finding someone who has read more than I have, I am afraid.

I have no interest in learning how to be a witch. I'm curious as to why you do. You came here saying that you are searching, but your searches lead to you paganism. When anyone asks you why, you have no answer.

Why do you think that is?

What is it about this fantasy religion that attracts you?

What does it have that Christ Himself doesn't?

[FreeFromBrains]

Originally Posted by Luaera

According to Wicca it is a way to bend the energies of the world to help you achieve something. (Though you prevent bad things from happening by casting a circle, etc, but that is also something that I have very few details about how it actually works and where the tradition comes from originally. There are a lot of aspects to magic, preparations, fail safes etc.)

But the world won't serve things for you on a silverplate, you still have to do some worrk yourself, though your magic will give you a little push on the way.

That sounds like it takes away from one's own autonomy. Surely, what a fellow does is the product of his own hard work: what would lead someone to think there is an external force that is responsible for his own achievements?

Sounds like that kind of thinking is going to slow down the natural process of self acceptance and self actualisation.

How you heard the terms 'magical thinking' and 'confirmation bias'?

[Luaera]

Originally Posted by FreeFromBrains

That sounds like it takes away from one's own autonomy. Surely, what a fellow does is the product of his own hard work: what would lead someone to think there is an external force that is responsible for his own achievements?

Sounds like that kind of thinking is going to slow down the natural process of self acceptance and self actualisation.

How you heard the terms 'magical thinking' and 'confirmation bias'?

Yes, I have. And I am a bit more realistic than to believe that all is done by magic. I see it more as a confidence booster and a way to give yourself the feeling of "I can do this". In the end it is the person themself who achieve something, not the magic. Though it usually is a good idea to also show gratitude to the world for giving that extra help, it doesn't exactly make things worse.

[Luaera]

Originally Posted by Mary Etheldreda

You came here saying that you are searching, but your searches lead to you paganism. When anyone asks you why, you have no answer.

After searching for a while paganism and in ways Wicca gave a name to what I believed in. I found something that looked at the world in the same way I had already done for a while, though now I am looking for a clearer definition than pagan, since it is such a wide term.

Christianity has many of the same characteristics, yes, but the way one expresses themself and how doesn't seem right to me, to put it simply.

[FreeFromBrains]

Originally Posted by Luaera

Yes, I have. And I am a bit more realistic than to believe that all is done by magic. I see it more as a confidence booster and a way to give yourself the feeling of "I can do this". In the end it is the person themself who achieve something, not the magic. Though it usually is a good idea to also show gratitude to the world for giving that extra help, it doesn't exactly make things worse.

That sounds like the placebo effect. Or even the Hawthorn effect.

How could you ever know the difference from doing well all by yourself or doing well yourself plus magic?

[Luaera]

Originally Posted by FreeFromBrains

That sounds like the placebo effect. Or even the Hawthorn effect.

How could you ever know the difference from doing well all by yourself or doing well yourself plus magic?

Placebo effect is a good word for it, yes. There isn't really a way to prove that it actually works, but even though it is placebo it works and that is usually enough for most people. Most people are aware that it could just as well be a simple placebo effect, but they still keep going. Faith doesn't necessarily have to be proved by science, since you believe in it and that's enough

[Mary Etheldreda]

Originally Posted by Luaera

though now I am looking for a clearer definition than pagan, since it is such a wide term.

Exactly. You might find the most accurate definition of paganism is: Pretending What I Want To Be True Is True.

Originally Posted by Luaera

Christianity has many of the same characteristics,

Hardly. God's omnipotence is real. Pagan is just collective Pretend Time for lonely women who want to feel empowered and feminine, even while they let themselves get fat and boring.

[see_the_light]

Originally Posted by Luaera

Christianity has many of the same characteristics, yes, but the way one expresses themself and how doesn't seem right to me, to put it simply.

I have been absent from this thread for a couple of posts because I didn't want to ask more pagan things and make you dwell in that pit (given that you barely scraped the surface good for your soul and let it stay that way).

But now we arrive at the crux of the question

Given that you were raised a lutheran your douts about christianism might be warranted.

Do you care to explain what and why the expression failed and it just "doesn't seem right "

As I mentioned earlier we'd advise you to read and ask questions arising from the KJV 1611, but to help you find your way to JESUS earlier we might put to rest some of your doubts.

PRAISE THE LORD!

[see_the_light]

Originally Posted by Mary Etheldreda

Exactly. You might find the most accurate definition of paganism is: Pretending What I Want To Be True Is True.



Hardly. God's omnipotence is real. Pagan is just collective Pretend Time for lonely women who want to feel empowered and feminine, even while they let themselves get fat and boring.

Exactly, from what I have seem in other threads the pagans we had so far were either boys that wanted to get drunk, fornicate right and left and pretend to themselves that they are mighty warriors of old, OR scorned girls/women that would like to fornicate and be popular but "mirror says no" so they play their frustrations to convince themselves that they could "anything" if they set their "powers" to it but make nothing because "it's an harmony thing with the ""godess"".

In a certain sense it's even more worrying than full fledged heathens, they are lulled into a "children playing grownups in fairyland" thing and I fear that they'll deny the years they see in the mirror until by their death-bed they see the hollow and sinful life they led.

Even if they are stupid enough not to see that satan is smiling behind that mirror , they will see when they find themselves in hell.

PRAY TO JESUS!

[Pastor Ezekiel]

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--Pastor Ezekiel

[James Hutchins]

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