[Jeb Stuart Thurmond]

I think we should have a full-scale debate thread about this. I used to agree with you on this, but this war has been like the laboratory experiment which proves all the paper theories wrong. The key is predictive value, look at the predictions of your favorite thinkers, did they get it right?

Originally Posted by Barry

I just wondered why nobody was trying to end this war through diplomacy

How? I already wrote:

Originally Posted by Jeb Stuart Thurmond

Russians justification for war is that a group of friends (NATO) is making too many friends who are too close to Russia.

The small-scale version of this is a popular person who keeps meeting people and making new friends. Then he makes friends with the guy next door. So you go next door, beat up your neighbor, trash his house, and so on.

How do you solve this diplomatically? Putin wants to rebuild the Russian Empire, and to do this he needs to return international law to what it was before 1914. Would you compromise and meet him halfway, say, with 1938 rules?

Originally Posted by Barry

Putin isn't the aggressor, he's the patsy, that fell into a trap deliberately laid down by Americans. All the deaths we are witnessing, are caused by US meddling in a region of the world, it has absolutely no business in. Your nation's pursuit of hegemony, appears to many in the rest of the world, as little more than a murderous campaign waged on defenceless nations. If you want this war to stop, you need to tell your government you can see through it's lies.

I believe that Putin is acting like a Biblical King of old, righteously committing evils as part of God's mysterious plan, as explained by Pat Robertson.

Meanwhile America's influence and coherence has been dropping like a stone ever since the competitive pressures of the cold war ended. At that time our elite realized they could get away with becoming the short-sighted, self-serving, incompetent crooks they've become. At least our overpriced weapons are effective, I credit the competitive international arms market for that, and nothing else.

On the other hand, Vladimir Putin is a KGB agent who climbed to the top of the Epic Darwinian Corpse-pile that is Soviet/post-Soviet politics. You're painting him as some sort of naïve hippie who is being led around the nose by the 5-dimentional chess geniuses of the Washington Swamp, who are always thinking decades ahead of brilliant new ways to strengthen America.

This seems to be the heart of our disagreement. Do you agree?

Originally Posted by Barry

The US Government has a long tradition of lying, in order to justify it's wars.

This is not a sign of competent Machiavellianism, it's the key to America's strategic incompetence. Credibility and trust are the main currency here, both of them have been profitlessly expended since the 1960's with no attempt from the elites to remedy the situation, except for counterproductive censorship attempts that are absurdly out of place in the internet era.

It justified going to war against Spain by pretending the USS Maine was attacked

I'd recommend you strengthen your argument by using examples from the past century.

It cooked up a whole croc of garbage in the Gulf of Tonkin to justify the invasion of Vietnam.

South Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia were invaded by the communists long before America put boots on the ground in response. The only problem with that war was that due to some lawyer's fine print we didn't openly fortify a front-line across Laos. Those whole thing could have been as cheap and quiet as the as the War On Terror in the Philippines. Heard about that campaign? Nobody has, because we won.

The first 5 rules of warfare are: 1. Don't get outflanked. 2. Cut your enemy's supply lines, all else is a distraction 3. Ranged weapons are strategically useless unless you can win a war of attrition 4. Democracies don't win wars of attrition. 5. Monarchies are immune to communist subversion (unless they are run by liberal, literal cuckolds like Mr. Romanov) therefore don't send a penny to the Vietnamese, have Thailand handle everything.

So what did we do? Instead of paying Thailand to fortify a line across Laos to the sea, we followed the lawyerly fine print of some treaty that the Communists were ignoring from before the ink was dry. The result meant dropping more bombs on Laos than were dropped in all of WW2...But at least there weren't boots on the ground, except when there were. And they did all this while thinking it could be kept secret.

No, the lesson of Vietnam was not "USA BAD" it was "treat lawyers like someone who is trying to kill you, because they are".

More than half of them, believed Saddam Hussein was in someway implicated in 9/11. More than 80% of them believed Saddam had WMD.

About 99% thought we were going to going to overthrow Saddam and then bring the troops home a month later, not that we were going to conduct an experiment to see if meth-crazed foreign soldiers make better social workers than actual locals.

This is evidence of incompetence, not Machiavellian brilliance.

ACX:...Reversed Stupidity Is Not Intelligence...the intelligence community might suck at the sort of small-state terrorism work it’s been asked to do the past few decades, but that “infiltrating Russia” is kind of its bread and butter and a big part of its institutional DNA. Maybe we should trust it more on Great Power conflict than on tinpot dictator stuff? ...Bounded Distrust...

The US Government is lying again today.

If so, it's the Polish, the Balts, and most of all the Ukrainians themselves who are lying the hardest. Why do you think you know more than them, the people who are closest to the issue, who have lifetimes of direct first-hand experience with the issue?

[Trent Harvey, Jr.]

Originally Posted by Jeb Stuart Thurmond

The small-scale version of this is a popular person who keeps meeting people and making new friends. Then he makes friends with the guy next door. So you go next door, beat up your neighbor, trash his house, and so on.

If this is hard to visualize, watch this video which shows how leftists handle the problem of scarcity:

If they were capitalists, they would have teamed up to form a perfume company. They'd get rid of the fence because it wastes land which they could be planting more flowers on, then they'd tear up the sidewalks for the same reason (they don't need sidewalks now that they can hover). They'd get stinking rich, marry hotter wives, and be able to afford a soundtrack with less booping and more bleeping.

It's no coincidence that the logo for capitalism looks like this:




And the logo for leftism looks like this:





Choose carefully if you want less drop-kicked babies.

[Dennis Lukes]

[Johny Joe Hold]

The news today shows why Ukraine needs to be run by an honest leader, Putin. First, Ukraine would not cooperate with President Trump and reveal the truth about Hunter and Joe Binden. Now, it is being dishonest about what it is doing in the war.

Ukraine said it was going to launch a counter attack in a certain location. It moved a few guns and troops there. Our friend Putin ordered Russian troops away from another location to defend what the Ukraines said they were about to do. But, the Ukraine had lied. They attacked the area where the Russians had just left. The honest Russians lost territory.

We need to bring back an honest President, Donald Trump, and have him help Putin bring honest government to Ukraine.

Russia-Ukraine War News: Live Updates - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

[Jeb Stuart Thurmond]

Originally Posted by Johny Joe Hold

Ukraine said it was going to launch a counter attack in a certain location....Ukraine had lied.

The honesty gap in this war is huge, but it seems most Westerners love liars. Here's an example of a Russian speaking honestly, while a westerner urges him to lie - to his own mother!

Why are Russians so much more honest? I've asked people about this, and they say it's because the Russians are constantly drinking "truth serum", whatever that is.

[James Hutchins]

I have strong opinions when the subject of international politics is concerned. I have found, the cause of unrest is always the same.

Atheists and non-Christians. Always atheists and Non-Christians.
They should be dealt with in the harshest of manners as God prescribes.

Leviticus 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

Psalm 37:30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.

Proverbs 31:9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.


1st Corinthians 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1st Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

1st Corinthians 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Jude 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jude 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jude 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.



Jeremiah 16:15 But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.
Jeremiah 16:16 Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.

I Thessalonians 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
I Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
I Thessalonians 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

[Dr. Anthony J. Toole]

On the subject of international politics, I find it always helpful to remember the advice of Joseph Sobran (Newsletter, "Sobran's", April 1997), quoted on our own forum here.

"Western man towers over the rest of the world in ways so large as to be almost inexpressible. It’s Western exploration, science, and conquest that have revealed the world to itself. Other races feel like subjects of Western power long after colonialism, imperialism, and slavery have disappeared. The charge of racism puzzles whites who feel not hostility, but only baffled good will, because they don’t grasp what it really means: humiliation. The white man presents an image of superiority even when he isn’t conscious of it. And, superiority excites envy. Destroying white civilization is the inmost desire of the league of designated victims we call minorities."

[Mary Etheldreda]

There is only one Truthful answer. Atheists. The truth is, Atheism is far worse than merely an absence of belief. Rather, Atheism is a whole system of beliefs. This system has its own philosophy (materialism), morality (relativism), politics (social Darwinism), culture (secularism), creation story (evolution), salvation (homosexuality), and high priests (Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, Stephen Fry). It even has its own sacraments (abortion and euthanasia). And this system of beliefs has been responsible for more death, carnage, persecution and misery than any system of beliefs the world has ever known.

Are Orthodox Catholics any different from atheists in the eyes of Truth and the LORD? There is no doubt in my mind, which has been settled and validated through prayer, that this war is a war led by the prayers of Atheists and empowered by their alliance with the Dark One.

[Johny Joe Hold]

Originally Posted by Mary Etheldreda

Are Orthodox Catholics any different from atheists in the eyes of Truth and the LORD? There is no doubt in my mind, which has been settled and validated through prayer, that this war is a war led by the prayers of Atheists and empowered by their alliance with the Dark One.

The dark one--preach it Sister Mary. All over the world Satan is at work trying to stop God's good work on our behalf. Catholics are everywhere. Liberal do-gooder armies tip toe across the globe without stopping Ukraine from it evil acts.

[Dennis Lukes]

Originally Posted by Johny Joe Hold

The dark one

I don't think Obama is involved in this, he's too busy running a gay sex ring in Dupont Circle. The Jews started this war with the aim of toppling Vladimir Putin because he opposes cultural marxism and the LGBT agenda.

[Jeb Stuart Thurmond]

Originally Posted by Jeb Stuart Thurmond

No, the lesson of Vietnam was not "USA BAD" it was

...don't jump into a fight and then suddenly decide that you don't want to win.

Because people are saying "we can't let Putin lose, or he'll go nuclear". Bit late to talk about that, because the war is happening, and there's only two ways it can end:



In WW2, nobody said "we can't send tanks to Normandy, if we do Hitler might use poison gas!"

[Jeb Stuart Thurmond]

Originally Posted by Trent Harvey, Jr.

If they were capitalists, they would have teamed up to get stinking rich, marry hotter wives,...Choose carefully if you want less drop-kicked babies.

Capitalists want business in the hands of businesspeople, and leftists want business, and everything, in the hands of politicians.

Okay, so which of these two groups are the warmongers, and which ones the children of peace and love?

Let's start with business rivalries. The "Cola Wars" were called "wars" because....Well, their ads made reference to the fact that they had a competitor - and even named them by name! No "the next leading brand" here: it was just like the cyberpunk dystopian doomsayers predicted! The Horror! The Horror! Or not.

Meanwhile, in terms of political campaigns it seems the LEAST vicious things have ever got was "The Era of Good feelings", with caricatures limited to stuff like this:



Though, to be fair, this was probably drawn as a compliment, if that makes it any better.

[Johny Joe Hold]

Since before the war, it was obvious Ukraine was flaunting it homer friendly cities for but one purpose, to annoy Putin. Putin is so opposed to homers he can hardly speak of them.

This flaunting of homerism is the reason there is a war today. One would think Ukraine and its homers would learn from this that homerism is dangerous.

I've been monitoring the homer lifestyle in Ukraine since they started the war. Of course, I've been hoping homers disappeared, i.e., either went straight or went into hiding where they belong. Instead, I've learned homers went right on sinning as if they do not care how many soldiers lose their lives. That City Kiev has a rollicking homer night life while Russians die on the battlefield.

LGBTQ life is thriving in Ukraine thanks to the arts - LGBTQ Nation

[handmaiden]

Originally Posted by Johny Joe Hold

. . . Putin is so opposed to homers he can hardly speak of them. . . This flaunting of homerism is the reason there is a war today.

Ukrainian homers are the ones who are always photo-shopping and flaunting images of Putin for their own lascivious purposes.

[MitzaLizalor]

Originally Posted by Jeb Stuart Thurmond

Another argument in support of politicians, or more particularly civil servants, is that 18th century North American colonies were costing the Brits far more than they were getting in returns. From the time of the Virginian colony, early 17th century, and previous adventures from the century before (Sir Walter Raleigh et al.) a considerable investment had been made, they felt. The sovereign and the parliament were manipulated, presumably by one actor in a senior position able to pull many strings and keep abreast of all developments without going nuts, a rare species and therefore easily identifiable in hindsight, to trigger exactly the outcome that eventuated. The French and the Spanish paid for it, the generals could run amok to their hearts' desire, the outcome as certain as anything can be under the circumstances but well above the 99% mark, all over in quite a short time (apart from rump marauding generals) and glad hearts all around.

Such a person would be welcome today. There seem very few parallels in Eastern Europe right now but can France and/or Spain be ruled out this time?

[Johny Joe Hold]

Other countries are accusing the U.S. of "profiting" from the war in Ukraine.

This is ridiculous. Of course, the U.S. in profiting. The U.S. sends weapons and other countries pay for them. Profit from arms sales has been going on since forever and we in the U.S. deserve our share.

Europe accuses US of profiting from war – POLITICO

[Unfalsifiable]

Zelensky needs to take a read of Exodus 22:21 and start treating the incoming Russians with a bit more respect.

[Joanna Lytton-Vasey]

Originally Posted by Johny Joe Hold

Other countries are accusing the U.S. of "profiting" from the war in Ukraine.

Such nonsense! You might as well accuse Ukrainian builders and highway repair companies of starting the war so that they could profit from the work they'll get after it ends, if it ever does end. Though now I come to think of it, I may accidentally have hit on the truth of the matter there.

[MitzaLizalor]

Originally Posted by Joanna Lytton-Vasey

Such nonsense! You might as well accuse Ukrainian builders and highway repair companies of starting the war so that they could profit from the work they'll get after it ends, if it ever does end. Though now I come to think of it, I may accidentally have hit on the truth of the matter there.

That's like saying the Soviets built nuclear reactors so that future Russians would have something to blow up.

At the end of the day though, to what extent can bickering among disparate varieties of Orthodoxy be ruled out? They're all well advanced in the ridiculous hat arena.

[James Hutchins]

Joos always the joos stirring up trouble. Whiny money grubers.