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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-19-2019, 05:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic View Post
Yes, That is what I am saying. And the reason that the conclusion does not follow the premises is because the logic showcases a version of the the post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy, which makes the argument fallacious and invalid.


May I also add that your continued use of the Ad Hominem fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) is far from helpful to the discussion.
No it doesn't. You did not understand the premises. You are using your own version (a straw man, you know?)
Bas said


Quote:
By the same logic, we cannot measure God but we can measure His creation. So following your logic, you have just proven that God exists, because His creation (everything we see) exists. Good job!

Following this, there are 2 separate sets of premises:


1) If we can measure something, it exists
2) We can measure the world
3) The world exists


Second,


1) God created the world
2) The world exists
3) God, the creator, exists


See? In the first case, we can discuss the accuracy of premise one. Because we can assert something exists without measuring it. For example, I can be sure my love for God exists, but I cannot measure it.
Nevertheless, if we accept the premises are right, then the conclusion is right.
The second premise is the same. We know the second premise to be 100% right. If the first premise is right, the logic is right.


You created your own version and called the logic flawed. That is a REALLY stupid thing to do.


I am not attacking you in any way. I am going against your reasoning, or lack of it. At least, of a right reasoning. Please show me where did I used the Ad Hominem.


And no, when I say:


Quote:
You created your own version and called the logic flawed. That is a REALLY stupid thing to do.

I am not calling you stupid. I call your actions stupid, then not ad hominem at all.


Please study and come back, child.


Regards,


1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-19-2019, 05:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic View Post
Mr Old Man, I am not trying to disprove God. I am merely trying to break down this argument

Quote:
By the same logic, we cannot measure God but we can measure His creation. So following your logic, you have just proven that God exists, because His creation (everything we see) exists. Good job!

Let me help you: the logic is ok, you have to attack the premises here.
The premise that God created the world is the one that needs to be proven. The logic is ok.
1) If God created the world, and 2) we can measure the world, then 3) God's existence is proven.

See the "if"? That's the problem. For an atheist, it is not proven that God created the world. You tried to attack the logic (the intelligence?) of a TC, and did not realize that the problem here is a difference of premises.


We prove 1 through the Bible. And here it comes another premise you have to address. But I will let you do it.


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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-19-2019, 06:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic View Post
...I am not trying to disprove God. I am merely trying to...
Continue arguing about nothing with strangers for no point other than showcasing your intellectual conceits.


I'm guessing that it will be rather pointless to ask when you're going to read the Bible?



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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-19-2019, 06:51 PM

You're right that the new argument you present does not contain a fallacy. This is because you moved from

If God existed (and did what the Bible said he did), the world would exist.


to


God created the world.


In this case there is no logical premise, but you the burden of proof to prove that God created the world.


The original statement, though, gave me the impression that it was making the argument as I presented it in syllogistic form, namely;
Quote:
Premise 1: If the Bible were true (Particularly the bit where God exists and creates the universe) the universe would exist.
Premise 2: The universe exists
Conclusion: The Bible (at the very least, that bit of it) is true and God does exist.
However, I accept that your interpretation of the argument may be right. This is why I asked, and ask again, for clarification from Basilissa, who made the original argument.




As for the Ad Hominem;
Quote:
I am not calling you stupid. I call your actions stupid, then not ad hominem at all.

Please study and come back, child.

Directly after claiming you are not trying to insult me, you talk down to me condescendingly. For the sake of the argument, it would be preferable if you acted civil, as I have tried to.
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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-19-2019, 08:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Didymus Much View Post
Continue arguing about nothing with strangers for no point other than showcasing your intellectual conceits.
A semi-digested (and largely misunderstood) Logic 101 primer can often lead the young into error. I know this from raising my own children and I think perhaps we need to be kinder and explain things more slowly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic View Post
Directly after claiming you are not trying to insult me, you talk down to me condescendingly. For the sake of the argument, it would be preferable if you acted civil, as I have tried to.
I think you need to be less sensitive, dear.


Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-20-2019, 02:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic View Post
Mr Old Man, I am not trying to disprove God. I am merely trying to break down this argument;

And explain why it is invalid.
I am afraid you will have to do your own homework. It will be hard at first but once you get used to it, it will be a lot more satisfying to do it yourself!


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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-20-2019, 08:57 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joanna Lytton-Vasey

I think perhaps we need to be kinder and explain things more slowly
We're on the same page here. So much confusion. I was alerted very early in POST #1 to the level of reasoning b☓eing applied; I'd only read as far as some stuff about logic being imperative to all beliefs and then a section about "Identity" highlighted in red if anyone clicks the link. The following remark leapt out at me:

Quote:
Originally Posted in an earlier post

if the statement "God exists" is true, the statement "God exists" is true
Euclid eat your heart out! After that clunker there didn't seem much point reading on. Let's try some more examples.
if the statement "Pigs have wings" is true, the statement "Pigs have wings" is true

if the statement "All frogs are ducks" is true, the statement "All frogs are ducks" is true
Here's a good one.
if the statement "Objects can be in multiple places at the same time" is true, the statement "Objects can be in multiple places at the same time" is true
Leading immediately to:
if the statement "Heaven occupies zero space" is true, the statement "Heaven occupies zero space" is true

Now if Heaven occupies zero space what are the dimensions of its subdivisions?
Take the moon for example.
Is it smaller than Heaven or the same size?
Perhaps it is of negative diameter?

For Christians it's a moot point. God has already explained about the heavens not only in Genesis 1 but here too:

II Chronicles 6:18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

Just reading the first page isn't good enough. ALL of God's wisdom is required when making pronouncements concerning reason and once that's been understood the fundamental properties of Creation are settled. God is not someone who obeys, He's someone who's obeyed and no Christian ever contradicts Him.

..Thank you Jesus

Thank you Lord
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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-20-2019, 11:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joanna Lytton-Vasey View Post
I think you need to be less sensitive, dear.
Honestly the "insults" are quite entertaining. They make conversation a bit more difficult though.


Mrs Lizalor, I'm not sure what you're so excited/upset about. If x is true, x is true. Everything has to be based on this.


Cranky Old Man, I'm also not sure what you mean by this;
Quote:
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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-20-2019, 12:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic View Post
You're right that the new argument you present does not contain a fallacy. This is because you moved from

If God existed (and did what the Bible said he did), the world would exist.


to


God created the world.


In this case there is no logical premise, but you the burden of proof to prove that God created the world.


The original statement, though, gave me the impression that it was making the argument as I presented it in syllogistic form, namely;

However, I accept that your interpretation of the argument may be right. This is why I asked, and ask again, for clarification from Basilissa, who made the original argument.




As for the Ad Hominem;



Directly after claiming you are not trying to insult me, you talk down to me condescendingly. For the sake of the argument, it would be preferable if you acted civil, as I have tried to.
It is not as hominem when you are still not saying your age or gender. I am simply trying to communicate with you and I only have the clues you leave on your posts. I genuinely think you are no older than 14, you are in high school and English is a second language to you. It is not ad hominem, it is curiosity.


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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-20-2019, 02:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Gonzalez View Post
It is not as hominem when you are still not saying your age or gender. I am simply trying to communicate with you and I only have the clues you leave on your posts. I genuinely think you are no older than 14, you are in high school and English is a second language to you. It is not ad hominem, it is curiosity.
It is not merely quite rude to barge in without introducing yourself, it is also against the rules of the introduction forum, which are very clearly set out at the top of the page: "This the ONLY subforum you can start threads in. Here is where you introduce yourself. Tell us what church you go to and what your favorite Bible verse is and how you came to find Jesus."


Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-20-2019, 09:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic View Post
My background is not of much significance.
That is true Gal:3:28. We are all one in Christ.
Quote:
I am an Anti theist from Europe,

You just said that your background was not important... why are you giving me background?
Quote:
One metaphysical concept I value above all others is logic; I believe it, alongside evidence, is the only way of finding out Truth. I think many people on these forums would agree with that.

I like my signature.


Quote:
So, here I present to you The Three Laws of Logic:
Were those laws established by God at the Creation?



Who spoke these "laws"? Was he a man?




Quote:
The Law of Identity
Quote:
If a statement is true, it is indeed true.
That is to say, if the statement "God exists" is true, the statement "God exists" is true.
Or, as a formula: P = P
Here at Landover, we call that one "The Rule of the Blindingly Obvious."
Quote:
The Law of Non-Contradiction
Quote:
If a statement is true, it is not false in the same sense, and vice verse.
You haven't met Mrs Bathfire, have you?
She asked me where her car keys were only yesterday. I replied, "I have no idea." -> a truth value of 1.
She replied "You're a great help, aren't you?"
Now I had been a great help as I had reduced the number of people in the world who could not help her. Thus, that was simultaneously untrue



Quote:
The Law of Excluded Middle
Quote:
A statement can either be true or false, there is no alternative.
All generalizations are inaccurate, including this one.


Where are you with this one?


Quote:
Next I present the potentially outrageous statement that even God must be subject to these laws.

And yet you live in Europistan. I would refer you to Romans:9. God can do as He wishes. He cannot be bound by His creations.


Quote:
The argument, broken down, is as follows:

Premise 1: The Bible is fact.
Premise 2: The Bible states that the Bible is fact.
Conclusion: The Bible is fact.

This argument is fallacious, as its first premise relies on its conclusion.
I agree, it is fallacious, It is not the Bible, that says this, it is God. Why would God lie?




Ec:7:16: Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself?

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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-20-2019, 11:52 PM

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Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic View Post
Cranky Old Man, I'm also not sure what you mean by this;
No surprise there. You will find the answers you seek in Isaiah 3:11.


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Follow me on Twitter or burn in Hell for all eternity!

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Jesus Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-21-2019, 12:07 AM

I may not have a PhD in Creation Science, but I remember one TRUTH that Dr. Elmer White taught the class when we were studying The Origins of Man:


God exists because the entire Bible is based on His existence. Without Him , the Bible doesn't exist because He is the Author and Inspiration of each Word. Logic, on the other hand, is a relative thing and usually makes more complicated that which is actually very simple. Christ told me to have the faith of a child. If my father tells me something, I believe it. How much more so do I believe everything my Heavenly Father says!


I sincerely think that logic and Christianity are deeply intertwined and yet diaphoretically opposed. Think: If I am a Christian, do I need Plato or Diaphopacles or any of the other ancient Egyptians to tell me how to live my life? No. And you know why? Because JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH tells me how to live my life, and He is always always always always always right. You can not find a single flaw in Holy Scripture because each line and verse was breathed by my Creator, my beautiful Master, my Savior, my King.


GLORY!


Proverbs 21:31 KJV 1611:
“The horse is prepared against the day of battell: but safetie is of the Lord.”

Lord, may I serve my equine brothers and sisters just as I do my fellow man.
Amen and Amen
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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-21-2019, 04:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic View Post
I'm not sure what you're so excited/upset about. If x is true, x is true. Everything has to be based on this.
100% is quite a rare level of certainty but even pre-verbal infants know what you're claiming about x.
Name:  crybaby.gif
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Let represent "Waaaaaaaaa!"

Baby knows that if is true, is true.

Mother also knows this and can distinguish from other sounds.

Although baby is unaware of conditional clauses, the certainty of is 100%

is the basis for everything external to baby.

Mother has additional factors to balance against but as far as baby goes, is true.

Baby knows this.

Aristotle also understood that but made the mistake of using x = x as a basis for "obeying logic" in the real world. Yes, I know the concept of obeying something you just made up for yourself is ridiculous and many of Aristotle's ravings were refuted at the time (or had already been refuted before he declaimed them) as a result. Not only did Aristotle contradict Scripture (as did Democritus and Epicurus for that matter) but the nonsense he inserted for x produced unsound conclusions.

We have already seen that Heaven (or any number of multi-Heavens) cannot contain God. Whether or not the universe is currently inside out is therefore immaterial. Some Athenians would have understood the concept. Aristotle not so much.

But what does any of this have to do with Christianity?


PAUL
Acts 17:18-19 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-21-2019, 11:38 AM

There is too much here for me to argue with, so I will attempt to assert just one thing: The laws of logic are factual/true.

You cannot make a true statement or argument without applying them. I challenge you to do so - but please, for the sake of avoiding confusion and rabbit holes, pick something we can all agree on.
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Love Jesus Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-21-2019, 01:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic View Post
There is too much here for me to argue with, so I will attempt to assert just one thing: The laws of logic are factual/true.

You cannot make a true statement or argument without applying them. I challenge you to do so - but please, for the sake of avoiding confusion and rabbit holes, pick something we can all agree on.
Dear Shirley,

I sincerely thing that you should try to express your thoughts without your obsession of formal logic in the form of 1. - 2. - concl., as you probably realize by now that it is not working.

Surely you also know that even if something can be proven by the laws of logic and an argument shows internal consistency, you would still have to provide observable/measurable/whatever evidence to make the argument true also on Earth. For us , the hierarchy of evidence is as follows:
  1. The Bible.
  2. Prayer.
  3. True Christian™ eyewitness testimony.
  4. Other True Christian™ testimony.
  5. Science as a supplement to Scripture.
I suggest and pick a verse that we surely can agree on:

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer


2 Kings 18:25 - Am I now come up without the LORD against this place to destroy it? The LORD said to me, Go up against this land, and destroy it.



PREPARE YOURSELF TO RAPTURE WITH THIS MANUAL!
Check out our Research in Creation Science:
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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-21-2019, 02:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmer G. White View Post
I sincerely thing that you should try to express your thoughts without your obsession of formal logic in the form of 1. - 2. - concl., as you probably realize by now that it is not working.

Surely you also know that even if something can be proven by the laws of logic and an argument shows internal consistency, you would still have to provide observable/measurable/whatever evidence to make the argument true also on Earth.
Brother Professor Dr White, Sir, we were discussing this young person's problems over lunch today and one of my eldest twins pointed out that what is happening is that she is trying to do the reverse of using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. (What is the reverse idiom for that? Bringing a waterpistol to a gunfight, perhaps.)

Anyway, what James (13) meant was that elementary, grade school logic was a wholly inadequate tool, especially when poorly understood/expressed. He says that given the interaction of syntax and semantics in the problem, what is required is something like Montague Grammar (aka Montague Semantics), because once you bring lambda-extraction into the equation, everything becomes crystal clear. He recommends Dowty, Wall & Peters (1980) as a good primer, with the work of Barbara Partee for supplementary reading.

I hope this helps?
YiC
Joanna


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But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-21-2019, 05:06 PM

I am really rushed now, but I just want to point out that logic does not apply to God, and that is His "thing", what makes Him different from other (non existent) gods. That is one of the finest and purest proof of His existence: his refusal to accept any logic in the stories He write on the Bible.For example:If X is true, and Y denies X, then either X or Y are not true.
But God is the same as Jesus and the Holy Ghost, and they are three different persons AT THE SAME TIME. That is not logic, and is even not understandable in our logic standards. Nevertheless, both statements are true and contradictory.
Logic is for humans. God is above every law there is. Physics, chemistry, mathematics (Pi is 3 in the Bible, not 3,1416), biology. Talking donkeys, people living inside whales, babies born without sperm involved, water becoming wine, fishes multiplied, rivers opening and closing to drown enemies, talking bushes in fire, people living 900 years. We believe all of that and I will defend the existence of all those stories even against solid evidence and scientific falsation.
So no, the answer is no. There is no logic to bound God to something and also there is no logic in believing in God. There is only faith and faith alone.


1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-21-2019, 10:46 PM

I feel... so lost. What I'm getting from all of this is:

Logic is fine when it's convenient


You value truth, as long as truth is the teachings of Jesus, the Bible etc.


I've encountered this before, but not to the level I see it here. That's probably a compliment for you. I'm not sure where to go from here. I can't point out the logical flaws in your arguments if you just ignore them. I'm not sure where to go from here.


And no, don't tell me that if I look for Jesus he will show me the way. I assure you, your position is even more obviously wrong to me than mine is to you.
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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-22-2019, 03:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic View Post
I feel... so lost. What I'm getting from all of this is:

Logic is fine when it's convenient


You value truth, as long as truth is the teachings of Jesus, the Bible etc.


I've encountered this before, but not to the level I see it here. That's probably a compliment for you. I'm not sure where to go from here. I can't point out the logical flaws in your arguments if you just ignore them. I'm not sure where to go from here.


And no, don't tell me that if I look for Jesus he will show me the way. I assure you, your position is even more obviously wrong to me than mine is to you.


If you look for Jesus, he will show you the way.


And no, you haven't shown any logical flaw in any of our arguments. And still haven't introduced yourself in your intro thread.


1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
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