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Default Re: Selfishness makes America GREAT, except for the GREEDY poor! - 01-25-2012, 12:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zechariah Smyth View Post
are you simply trying to Google your way to salvation?Z. Smyth
I am sorry if I made that impression. It was an honest mistake.
It is not in my intention to "google my way to salvation", but rather I am trying to reach an understanding in accordance to the bible. For me, salvation comes within the understanding of the bible.

The full text of the scripture is as follows: "And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God".

But still, my question stands. I am hoping you could explain to me how it is in agreement to this thread. Thank you for helping me out.

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Default Re: Selfishness makes America GREAT, except for the GREEDY poor! - 01-25-2012, 12:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by librarian View Post
I am sorry if I made that impression. It was an honest mistake.
It is not in my intention to "google my way to salvation", but rather I am trying to reach an understanding in accordance to the bible. For me, salvation comes within the understanding of the bible.

The full text of the scripture is as follows: "And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God".

But still, my question stands. I am hoping you could explain to me how it is in agreement to this thread. Thank you for helping me out.
How about this: tell me IN YOUR OWN WORDS why you feel that it is in disagreement with this thread, and what is the catalyst for your concern. Surely you are not implying that the KJV Bible is contradictory in any way whatsoever?

Please be honest: this is where the rubber meets the road.

YiC,

Zech


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Default Re: Selfishness makes America GREAT, except for the GREEDY poor! - 01-25-2012, 01:03 PM

What I do understand so far, is that Jesus took pity on the poor and blessed them with the kingdom of God (specially his disciples as they were the ones that Jesus was addressing).

Also, I am quite sure that there is also passage during the last supper of Jesus ans his disciples, when Jesus said something to Judas before Judas leaves in order to betray Jesus. The disciples that was with Jesus during this event, assumed that Judas left because either Jesus had commanded him to buy supplies or give money to the poor. The point is that Jesus' disciples had expectations that Jesus commanded Judas to give money to the poor, showing that they believe Jesus have compassion for the poor or at least pity.
I am not a bible expert so I cannot quote the exact texts on command or tell which exact scripture was it from. But because you had been pointing out my reliance on google to find texts I had read before but not memorized, I did not search for the said text. But if you want, I can find it and post it here.
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Default Re: Selfishness makes America GREAT, except for the GREEDY poor! - 01-25-2012, 01:15 PM

About the contradictory thing, no, I do not believe the Bible would contradict itself. I have great respect for it and I believe it is the guide to truth.

On that point, I have yet to read a Bible qoute on this thread that points out that the God condemns or hates the poor. In fact I just remembered a law in ancient Israel I have read once. It tells about the way farmers should gather their crops (i am not sure of the plant mentioned). I believe it mentions about how farmers should not go back and get the missed (or fallen) grains to gather them so poor people (again not sure without researching, but i think its widows?) can take them so they have something to eat.

If you want, I can take my time to do research. But I am quite sure you remember about it. Again, I do not claim myself any expert on anything, just somebody who wants to learn. I just read a lot and had gathered my own understanding of the bible. Its just I want guidance in understanding it, because as a human being i am bound to make mistakes or misunderstand God's word.
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Default Re: Selfishness makes America GREAT, except for the GREEDY poor! - 01-25-2012, 01:30 PM

My concern about this is the way long time members of this forum view the poor. I believe that the bible and God takes pity and even blesses the poor with His kingdom. The behavior of most of the members here are not in accordance or in the footsteps of Jesus. I have seen them post how the poor are vermin and vile beings, and that God will kill them in his own time.

I am searching for the truth and therefore, I need to know if I am in the wrong viewpoint or I have yet to find the Truth in another place.
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Smile Re: Selfishness makes America GREAT, except for the GREEDY poor! - 01-25-2012, 08:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by librarian View Post
I am sorry if I made that impression. It was an honest mistake.
It is not in my intention to "google my way to salvation", but rather I am trying to reach an understanding in accordance to the bible. For me, salvation comes within the understanding of the bible.

The full text of the scripture is as follows: "And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God".

But still, my question stands. I am hoping you could explain to me how it is in agreement to this thread. Thank you for helping me out.
You do know, God had the KJV Bible written so any person could understand it, right?
First off, if you know grammer, then you can say it like a conversation
"And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples,"
This means God raised His eyes at Hie disciples. Typically thing means indignant.
"and said, "
I hope this is pretty clear
"Blessed be ye poor"
Here is saying you are fortunate to have poor people
"for yours is the kingdom of God".
Your homes are mine.


Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
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Smile Re: Selfishness makes America GREAT, except for the GREEDY poor! - 01-25-2012, 08:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by librarian View Post
My concern about this is the way long time members of this forum view the poor. I believe that the bible and God takes pity and even blesses the poor with His kingdom. The behavior of most of the members here are not in accordance or in the footsteps of Jesus. I have seen them post how the poor are vermin and vile beings, and that God will kill them in his own time.

I am searching for the truth and therefore, I need to know if I am in the wrong viewpoint or I have yet to find the Truth in another place.
The poor have purpose. They are here to serve thier betters just as we are here to serve God. I do not have to like the poor anymore than God has to like me.


Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
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Default Re: Selfishness makes America GREAT, except for the GREEDY poor! - 01-25-2012, 08:38 PM

If you would read the Bible instead of fixating, you might of found this:
Quote:
Proverbs 19:7
All the brethren of the poor do hate him: how much more do his friends go far from him? he pursueth them with words, yet they are wanting to him.
and this:
Quote:
Proverbs 14:20
The poor is hated even of his own neighbour: but the rich hath many friends.


Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
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Default Re: Selfishness makes America GREAT, except for the GREEDY poor! - 01-25-2012, 08:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by librarian View Post
The full text of the scripture is as follows: "And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God".

But still, my question stands. I am hoping you could explain to me how it is in agreement to this thread. Thank you for helping me out.
I think you have a problem with simple reading comprehension.

In the Scripture you quote, Jesus is speaking specifically to His disciples.

He is not saying, "Blessed are ALL THE poor". No, He's saying, "Blessed are YOU poor".

In other words, "You, disciples, who gave up your possessions to follow me, are blessed even though you lack earthly wealth, because you will inherit the kingdom of God".

It doesn't mean, "All poor people go to Heaven"!


Bible boring? Nonsense!
Try Bible in a Year with Brother V, or join Shirlee and the kids as they discuss Real Bible Stories!
You can't be a Christian if you don't know God's Word!
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Smile Re: Selfishness makes America GREAT, except for the GREEDY poor! - 01-25-2012, 09:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. M. Rodimer View Post
............
It doesn't mean, "All poor people go to Heaven"!
Heheheh, you had me rolling on that one, Reverend!


Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
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Default Re: Selfishness makes America GREAT, except for the GREEDY poor! - 01-25-2012, 09:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by librarian View Post
My concern about this is the way long time members of this forum view the poor. I believe that the bible and God takes pity and even blesses the poor with His kingdom. The behavior of most of the members here are not in accordance or in the footsteps of Jesus. I have seen them post how the poor are vermin and vile beings, and that God will kill them in his own time.

I am searching for the truth and therefore, I need to know if I am in the wrong viewpoint or I have yet to find the Truth in another place.
Friend,

Show me a poor person who hasn't died and I will accept your point.



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Default Re: Selfishness makes America GREAT, except for the GREEDY poor! - 01-25-2012, 09:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by librarian View Post
What I do understand so far, is that Jesus took pity on the poor and blessed them with the kingdom of God (specially his disciples as they were the ones that Jesus was addressing).
That qoute was from my post where I explained my beliefs in my own language, if you would have just read the next few posts I made after the initial one. And Nowhere have I sad that all poor goes to heaven.

Also, may I qoute with its correct context Proverbs 14:20-21
Quote:
The poor is hated even of his own neighbour: But the rich hath many friends.
He that despiseth his neighbour sinneth:
But he that hath mercy on the poor, happy is he
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Smile Re: Selfishness makes America GREAT, except for the GREEDY poor! - 01-25-2012, 09:28 PM

Proverbs 14:20
The poor is hated even of his own neighbour: but the rich hath many friends.


Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
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Default Re: Selfishness makes America GREAT, except for the GREEDY poor! - 01-25-2012, 09:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Hutchins View Post
Proverbs 14:20
The poor is hated even of his own neighbour: but the rich hath many friends.
Please read Proverbs 14:21 also. It is a part of the bible and it is wrong to ignore God's word just because it conflicts with your personal belief.

And let me just say, thanks for James Hutchins for pointing out this bible text for me. I am no expert so I do not know everything and his bible qoute earlier helped me find it.
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Smile Re: Selfishness makes America GREAT, except for the GREEDY poor! - 01-25-2012, 09:41 PM

21 He that despiseth his neighbour sinneth:
But he that hath mercy on the poor, happy is he.
Two messages here both plain and simple.
1)Do not despise your neighbour. This simply means you have to live next ti them. Until you can make them move, do not give them cause to harass you.
The second part is just as simple.
2)It means have mercy (feel sorry for) the poor as they are too stupid to know any better.

Again, do not 'read into it', the Bible is plain, simple and direct.


Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
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Default Re: Selfishness makes America GREAT, except for the GREEDY poor! - 01-25-2012, 09:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Hutchins View Post
21 He that despiseth his neighbour sinneth:
But he that hath mercy on the poor, happy is he.
Two messages here both plain and simple. Do not despise your neighbour. This simply means you have to live next ti them. Until you can make them move, do not give them cause to harass you.
The second part is just as simple. It means have mercy (feel sorry for) the poor as they are too stupid to know any better.
Analysing the meaning of mercy, at its basic definition, it means feel sorry for as you pointed out. Also, the previous texts are all in the same context therefore, it is about also about the poor. Basically, in its over simplified version, it means you must not hate the poor, instead you must take pity on them. But having pity on someone is not a shallow emotion, despite what it sounds. In order for a person to take pity on someone, he must have first empathy and sympathy. Sympathy involves concern, therefore, a person must be concerned on the welfare of the poor before he can take pity on him.

Also, examining other translations, the word used in the original Proverbs can be translated to mercy (KJV). But it does not stop to being mercyful. In other translation
Quote:
ESV
but blessed is he who is generous to the poor.
Quote:
NIV1984
but blessed is he who is kind to the needy.
Quote:
NLT
blessed are those who help the poor.
And it goes on.
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Default Re: Selfishness makes America GREAT, except for the GREEDY poor! - 01-25-2012, 10:06 PM

Quote:
1)Do not despise your neighbour. This simply means you have to live next ti them. Until you can make them move, do not give them cause to harass you.
The second part is just as simple.
An off topic point I have noticed is that "do not despise your neighbour" means in simple terms, you must not hate your neighbour. Thus, making them move out of disdain or hatred, either by indirect or direct means is a sin. Hatred is not an action but an emotion felt in the heart.
God can read all of our hearts, and so he judges accordingly.
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Default Re: Selfishness makes America GREAT, except for the GREEDY poor! - 01-25-2012, 10:23 PM

Anothe bible verse I found while reading the Proverbs 14:31,
Quote:
Proverbs 14:31
He that oppresseth the poor reproacheth his Maker:
But he that honoureth him hath mercy on the poor.
This, I believe is in a complete disagreement on the emotions voiced earlier in this forum. Again, if I am mistaken, feel free to correct me.
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Default Re: Selfishness makes America GREAT, except for the GREEDY poor! - 01-25-2012, 10:43 PM

I just discovered a very good functio of biblegateway.com that allows me to search a term and show me all of verses it was mentioned on.
Here are a few I found when I researched the word "poor". Please read them all as they are instructions from GOD.

Please take note that all the texts are not in complete context as everyone can read the whole context on their own.
Exodus 23:11, Leviticus 19:10, Leviticus 23:22 - As what I have mentioned earlier about the farming methids of the israelites.

Leviticus 14:21, Leviticus 14:21, Leviticus 27:8 - It shows how the poor are given consideration in serving God, showing they are all in equal footing with rich man in front of God and letting them to worship and sacrifice what they can afford.

Deuteronomy 15:7, Deuteronomy 15:11 - How the poor are given help, not just ignored.

1 Samuel 2:8 = The priveledge of the poor.

The list goes on and it would be too exhaustive to list them all. Do a search of all verses if you are interested to learn more.
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Default Re: Selfishness makes America GREAT, except for the GREEDY poor! - 01-25-2012, 10:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. M. Rodimer View Post
I think you have a problem with simple reading comprehension.

In the Scripture you quote, Jesus is speaking specifically to His disciples.

He is not saying, "Blessed are ALL THE poor". No, He's saying, "Blessed are YOU poor".

In other words, "You, disciples, who gave up your possessions to follow me, are blessed even though you lack earthly wealth, because you will inherit the kingdom of God".

It doesn't mean, "All poor people go to Heaven"!
I've just had a lesson in humility. I always assumed this was bleeding obvious and didn't need to be explained but now I realise how deluded the unsaved really are that they don't get this. I am allowing myself to get out of touch and take far too much basic intelligence for granted.



Isaiah 34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

John 5:46,47 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

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