[Admiral Petty]

Originally Posted by Rev. Jim Osborne

God Himself invented widespread genocide and mass murder. Cain murdered Abel. Okay. One person. But who was it that wiped out all of Sodom and Gomorrah?

We both know why they were glassed. Who drove off the Caananites? If this was a perfect world, War wouldn't be needed. Obviously, God knew that war was the answer. Humans needed to invade and destroy humans. The fact is, war is ugly, and it's going to be our downfall. However, a game like Fallout 3 won't be. It's ugliness should only be a warning if we keep continuing down this path. Do you know how close we were to the big one in the cold war? You can argue God all you wish, but my Generation is going to be taking the reigns soon. I would rather have people use their God-Given common sense to make decisions rather than do "What God tells them to do" if it ends up with Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Anyone up for New York, Moscow, Washingon, Minsk, Kremlin and Pentagon??

Originally Posted by Bobby-Joe

Why, God frequently wants whole nations killed. Why do you think He commanded use to use nuclear weapons on Japan?

If this is true, then for the love of creation, Atheism is the path to life. Thank God, this isn't the case!

[2020Hindsight]

Oh come on people, you all worry way to much about this stuff, was murdering not around way before videogames came around? Weren't there crusades sanctioned by the church during the middleages in which thousands of people died?

What I don't get is why people get in such a flush when there's killing in videogames, sure it's bad, but isn't it better than the alternative - killing for real?

Call me a heathen, or a heretic or whatever you want, I don't believe in god in a sense that we should live our entire lives walking on a thin moral line which discriminates right from wrong in black and white with no gray area inbetween. You do what you want with your life (so long as you're not hurting anyone else), live it up because once you're gone here there ain't no coming back.

Now I'm not saying "God doesn't exist so don't believe in him," rather the point I'm trying to get across is don't try to push your beliefs or judgement on anyone else because in the end we all have to face what we've done and there's only one who can decide whether or not it was right or wrong. Because afterall, there's many paths to choose from written by the hand of man but they were all still alive so the informations second hand.

Live Free. Live Well. Live YOUR Life

[Rev. Jim Osborne]

Originally Posted by 2020Hindsight

Oh come on people, you all worry way to much about this stuff, was murdering not around way before videogames came around? Weren't there crusades sanctioned by the church during the middleages in which thousands of people died?

So what's your point? Yes there was killing before video games, but that doesn't mean that video games don't cause people to kill. By your logic, there was killing before the invention of guns....so guns don't kill people, right?

What I don't get is why people get in such a flush when there's killing in videogames, sure it's bad, but isn't it better than the alternative - killing for real?

At least you admit it is bad. It is a stepping stone. Video games make impressionable people desensitized to violence and also allows them to abuse their fantasies.

Call me a heathen, or a heretic or whatever you want, I don't believe in god in a sense that we should live our entire lives walking on a thin moral line which discriminates right from wrong in black and white with no gray area inbetween. You do what you want with your life (so long as you're not hurting anyone else), live it up because once you're gone here there ain't no coming back.

Well you are a heathen by definition then. If you don't believe in a God, why are you posting on a Christian forum? Do you see me posting on Fallout 3 forums telling them they are wrong? No.

Now I'm not saying "God doesn't exist so don't believe in him," rather the point I'm trying to get across is don't try to push your beliefs or judgement on anyone else because in the end we all have to face what we've done and there's only one who can decide whether or not it was right or wrong. Because afterall, there's many paths to choose from written by the hand of man but they were all still alive so the informations second hand.

We are not pushing any beliefs on anyone. This is a Christian forum for Christian people and I wrote this artice for Christians. Am I going out pushing this on gamers and atheists? No. This article was meant for Landover Baptist Church, warning my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ about this video game menace. How is that "pushing my beliefs onto others"?

[2020Hindsight]

Originally Posted by Rev. Jim Osborne

So what's your point? Yes there was killing before video games, but that doesn't mean that video games don't cause people to kill. By your logic, there was killing before the invention of guns....so guns don't kill people, right?

By my logic yes there was killing before guns, and yes guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Originally Posted by Rev. Jim Osborne

At least you admit it is bad. It is a stepping stone. Video games make impressionable people desensitized to violence and also allows them to abuse their fantasies.

Alright I will agree with you here, perhaps videogames can cause impressionable people to commit such heinous acts as murder, theft, violence; but in today's world what doesn't? Even the bible tells stories of murder which "impressionable" individuals may come to fantasize about. We all have dark fantasies and those who can control them have no problem playing videogames, it's only the small percentage of those who can't control them that instantly bring a whole lot of publicity to it and then more-frequently-than-not everybody associated with said item is labeled "mentally insecure."

Originally Posted by Rev. Jim Osborne

Well you are a heathen by definition then. If you don't believe in a God, why are you posting on a Christian forum? Do you see me posting on Fallout 3 forums telling them they are wrong? No.

Sir, nowhere did I say I didn't believe in god, I simply said I do not believe in him in the traditional sense that has been taught over the last two thousand years. Neither did I say I posted on Fallout 3 forums, which you inherently believe I do because I'm simply defending the fact that videogames don't kill people.

Originally Posted by Rev. Jim Osborne

We are not pushing any beliefs on anyone. This is a Christian forum for Christian people and I wrote this artice for Christians. Am I going out pushing this on gamers and atheists? No. This article was meant for Landover Baptist Church, warning my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ about this video game menace. How is that "pushing my beliefs onto others"?

Attempting to take a god-given right away from somebody is pushing your beliefs. Regardless of what people like to interpret as god's saying, do we not all have free will? With said route we are all entitled to do whatever we wish with our lives without persecution by the human race, afterall god is the only one we have to answer to. It might sound a bit hypocritical, but people should not be judged by other people, doesn't the church teach forgiveness and equality? I'm fine with you warning your Christian Brothers and Sisters of what Fallout 3 contains, but stating that the company itself is evil and products like Fallout 3 brainwash children into psychopathic sadistic killers hell bent on worshipping Satan is far over the top. You have to understand any which way you look at it, violence sells over religion. Today's world is driven by the dollar not belief in a god which is why the industry puts out stuff like this. Anyways I've enjoyed debating over this topic with you and I don't want to seem rude but I have to get up early tomorrow and it's already 11:30. Thank you for being civil my good sir and I wish you a good night.

[figg]

also im ready for a flame
*flame shield at the ready*

[Jake the Papist]

I don't see the relevance of this post. I play both Fallout 3 and Oblivion, and I don't want to kill people. I consider myself a good Catholic, and Bethesda makes quality games, with Christian undertones. Fallout 3 quotes the bible several times, and you exagerated on the majority of what you said. I'm 15, and Fallout and Oblivion are not influencing me in anyway, it's all in good fun, and is only entertainment.

[figg]

ur just another religious freak who thinks any game that invovles killing to be bad and satanic i know ur kind since ive known many religious ppl but as long as theres video games theres going to be ppl like u so get off and dont play the games or go near them just leave ppl alone

[Rev. Jim Osborne]

Originally Posted by Jake is Catholic

I don't see the relevance of this post. I play both Fallout 3 and Oblivion, and I don't want to kill people. I consider myself a good Catholic, and Bethesda makes quality games, with Christian undertones. Fallout 3 quotes the bible several times, and you exagerated on the majority of what you said. I'm 15, and Fallout and Oblivion are not influencing me in anyway, it's all in good fun, and is only entertainment.

Like I said, no Christian should play this game but you are Catholic, not a Christian. Did you not read my original post? I noted that Bethesda quoted the Bible -- out of context! They turn the Revelations quote "waters of life" into some kind of thing about water purification when the verse is about Jesus being the only way to Salvation. Read that last sentence again, Mary-worshipper...Jesus is the only way to Salvation!

[Jake the Papist]

I don't think it was used out of context, but simply cleverly used to the benefit of the storyline. I don't worship Mary, I acknowledge her as Jesus' mother.

- I don't believe you are a Christian either. No Christian would ever damn another person, no matter what the offense. Even if it's hard.

[Rev. Jim Osborne]

Originally Posted by Jake is Catholic

I don't think it was used out of context, but simply cleverly used to the benefit of the storyline. I don't worship Mary, I acknowledge her as Jesus' mother.

- I don't believe you are a Christian either. No Christian would ever damn another person, no matter what the offense. Even if it's hard.

Of course it was used out of context! What the heck does a Bible quote have to do with water purification? Nowhere did I damn anybody. Can you show me where I did this? Only Jesus can damn.

[Jake the Papist]

Do you believe that retards are going to hell? What about the pope? Jews? Negros? Goths? GAYS? If yes to any of the above, you damn these people, as you judge them, when it is only God's right to judge.

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Originally Posted by Jake is Catholic

Do you believe that retards are going to hell? What about the pope? Jews? Negros? Goths? GAYS? If yes to any of the above, you damn these people, as you judge them, when it is only God's right to judge.

Jake boy, you really need to throw off the shackles of papistry and get right with God. Take a look at my sermon on the subject of judging others HERE. I pray that you will find it inspirational, as so many have before you.

[Rev. Jim Osborne]

Originally Posted by Jake is Catholic

Do you believe that retards are going to hell? What about the pope? Jews? Negros? Goths? GAYS? If yes to any of the above, you damn these people, as you judge them, when it is only God's right to judge.

See, this is why 15 year old Catholic kids shouldn't try to argue with 68 year old True Christian™ pastors who have studied the Bible thoroughly. I am not damning them, I am judging them. And the Bible makes it very clear that we have the right to judge!

Psalm 37:30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Pay attention to that last Corinthians quote. I can judge you because I am spiritual, but since you are not with God, you cannot judge me.

[Jake the Papist]

Well, either of us could argue that. I believe I am more with God then you, but I don't pass judgement. And judgment and damnation are in essense the same word. Also, I don't think my age impairs me from arguing with you. What is your level of education?

[Rev. Jim Osborne]

Originally Posted by Jake is Catholic

Well, either of us could argue that. I believe I am more with God then you, but I don't pass judgement.

Did you not read what Pastor Zeke and I showed you?

And judgment and damnation are in essense the same word.

NO, they are not. They are not synonyms. If you see a movie, you judge it if it's good or bad. You don't "damn" it.

Also, I don't think my age impairs me from arguing with you. What is your level of education?

Sadly, it does, boy. I've been a reverend for three times as long as you've been alive! I've written over 2500 essays, reports, and published writings on the Bible. I have a M.A. in Biblical Scholarship from Biola University, a Christian Bible college in Southern California.

Pastor Zeke was also a child prodigy when it came to the Bible. He has memorized the entire book; I haven't! You should listen to your elders when we tell you what is best for you, ok?

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Originally Posted by Jake is Catholic

Well, either of us could argue that. I believe I am more with God then you, but I don't pass judgement. And judgment and damnation are in essense the same word. Also, I don't think my age impairs me from arguing with you. What is your level of education?

My church bio can be seen HERE.

[Jake the Papist]

I will not follow blindly what elders say, without considering the logic of it. Especially not from those of a different religion, and whom are almost the complete opposite of me. He may have been a prodigy with the bible, but I have been considered a prodigy in literature, and other practical arts.

[Giant Negro]

Children these days should be buying bibles not sin endorsing games like this!

[Nurse Clampett]

Originally Posted by Giant Negro

Children these days should be buying bibles not sin endorsing games like this!

Good point! Would you please create an introduction thread so we may know just how much of a big, black buck you are?

[Hunter]

Alright, I have read through this topic, and have come to a few conclusions. If you are not full of crap, I expect you to be able to answer up to this.

Racism/Sexism is not ok. I can hardly see how any of you can debate this. How about instead of bringing random Bible Quotes into this (which I know you will), why not try using the one thing that actually requires you not to be an idiot? Logic. Being black is just another color. African's color has nothing to do with god's will, it's just because of the location they have lived in has augmented the color of their skin (the amount of sun is the cause, proven scientifically). How would you act if you were born a different race, color, sex? It all comes down to chance, and you would not be so prevalent with your accusations if you were not born as you are today. It affects nothing besides appearance and shows ancestry.

Now to get on you for your fallout post.

First of all, you posted an article with a sole purpose as to degrade it. Sure you may have posted it online and only made it with the intention of people with the same beliefs as you viewing it, but here is an analogy. You make a essay about how everyone besides christians to die (Just an analogy), and publish it with the intent of only people with your beliefs viewing it. What do you think is going to happen, everyone just looking at the book that tells how your a bad person and should die and walk away without a word? You put this on the internet, which has the same viewerbase as a published book would have. It doesn't matter what forum it is on, people will see it and you making it does not make it impervious to conflicting views.

A kid played hitman enough to kill someone. You cite that as an example for everyone could be thinking of doing this... But you have absolutely no common sense here. Do you even know how many people play video games? Now out of the millions, and millions of people that play video games, the frequency with which video games are the indisputable cause of any violent or otherwise inappropriate actions is not even once a year. You say kids are impressionable. True. You say that video games are the stepping stone into real life violence. To show you I'm not an idiot, this can also be treated as true. But, you lack real life experience completely. All these theories are treating kids as mindless idiots, when in fact kids are the opposite. Hell, the brain starts deteriorating after the age of 21. When I see/watch people play video games... They are not thinking about killing people, they are playing for a concept you don't understand it seems. Fun. After they turn off the game, 15 year olds don't think, "Hmm I wonder how I could get a gun and do this in real life!" First of all, no one thinks like that. Second of all, food/girls/sleep/doing nothing is what comes to mind. Kids aren't all that complicated, but they sure as hell are not idiots.

You carelessly spout that Bethesda wants to encourage sin and satinic thoughts. Here is a funny question... Why would they want to do that? Too many people do that already. How about we actually think logically here instead of with hate, how about they want money maybe? Yea, sounds a bit more realistic eh? Or what about the developers like making games that are fun? Again, far more realistic than your "think first to hate" approach.

Cursing... I can argue all day that curse words are irrelevant and are just words with no power other than the heavy connotation associated with them, but that is for a different time. Here is a fact. Teens curse. Heres another. The game is aimed at teens, as you already have said, the M rating doesn't affect anything as anyone with half a brain can attain an M game anyway. And a last fact, Teens curse.. A lot. Maybe not your "perfect" kids, but the real kids that wouldn't get their ass kicked whenever they walked down the street in a bad neighborhood. And afterall thats the audience the game is directed at. Is it not? Its for increasing revenue and ratings, not a thing else.

To answer the rest, yes prostitution is bad, yes killing people is bad but that brings me back to the whole point of the post. It's a game, it is not meant to be taken seriously. Its for entertainment, not contemplating murder. But one thing I am genuinely angry with you at is you calling ghouls abominations. If you do not know this, than you can disregard this, but if you do know... There is a whole city of ghouls in the game, and it is not in the least a bad place. They created the city as the other cities shunned them for their disfigurations from the radiation/bomb. They are no different than us except for their appearance and any physical changes that come with it. Like someone else noticed before me, calling them demons is no different than calling survivors of Hiroshima demons. They were innocent women and children. And how can anyone make an argument that a young child that is young enough not to be subject to prejudice, whether the child is a subject or doer of it, is a demon because of some physical abnormality not even brought by birth? It isn't like all the people in hiroshima and nagasaki agreed with the government, so the same analogy can be made to full grown men and women.

Please do not spout bible verses out of context, I prefer logic. Does that make me an athiest? No it doesn't. Am I a devout christian? If I was a devout christian than I could be grouped with people like you and I would never let that happen. Also, how does age nullify an argument? I will give it to you that his argument wasn't that great, but calling him an idiot in nicer terms because of age is a low move. I don't look at age, I look at coherence. How old am I? 15.