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True Christian™ Icon of Feminine Virtue
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Location: Ungodly Buffalo, NY, MAGA USA
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Re: Even God has to obey Logic -
07-18-2019, 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic
Yes and no.
Your Logic, supposedly based on mine:
Premise 1: If God exists, his creation (the world) exists
Premise 2: The world exists, because we can measure it
Conclusion: God exists
The Argument is flawed because it commits the Post hoc fallacy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc). Basically, Premise 2 has other potential explanations.
Measuring the world to prove God may be based on the following syllogism:
Premise 1: x thing has been measured
Premise 2: The only explanation, or by far the most likely explanation for x thing being measured in this way is God
Conclusion: God exists
Hope this helps
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My goodness, isn't that impressive, Miss Logic? I do so hope that you will be able to impress Almighty with it when you stand before him on Judgment Day.
Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment".
Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell ."
And, instead of wasting your time over on Wikipedia, might I suggest this instead:
Sincerely, Isabella W.
(Mrs.) Isabella White
Hebrews 10:19 "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the of "
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Another brick in Donald´s wall - A.K.A "The Gonz" True Christian™
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Location: Ungodly South America
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Re: Even God has to obey Logic -
07-18-2019, 07:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic
Yes and no.
Your Logic, supposedly based on mine:
Premise 1: If God exists, his creation (the world) exists
Premise 2: The world exists, because we can measure it
Conclusion: God exists
The Argument is flawed because it commits the Post hoc fallacy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc). Basically, Premise 2 has other potential explanations.
Measuring the world to prove God may be based on the following syllogism:
Premise 1: x thing has been measured
Premise 2: The only explanation, or by far the most likely explanation for x thing being measured in this way is God
Conclusion: God exists
Hope this helps
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I love how you point towards Premise 2 being the flawed one in Sister Bas' post. So premise one {Premise 1: If God exists, his creation (the world) exists} is true.
Psychologist would say that was your subconcious. We know otherwise: is the way the Holy Ghost is leading you to be a True Christian. Embrace it, don't be a fool. You could end up in Heaven with all of us!
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
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Re: Even God has to obey Logic -
07-18-2019, 08:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Gonzalez
I love how you point towards Premise 2 being the flawed one in Sister Bas' post. So premise one {Premise 1: If God exists, his creation (the world) exists} is true.
Psychologist would say that was your subconcious. We know otherwise: is the way the Holy Ghost is leading you to be a True Christian. Embrace it, don't be a fool. You could end up in Heaven with all of us!
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No, no, no, you've got it wrong.
The problem with the argument is the logic behind it - it is fallacious. Neither of the premises are false. It would be madness to state otherwise. IF God exists, the world would exist, obviously. But it's an IF. The world could exist without God, or, if it couldn't, this argument in no way supports that.
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Another brick in Donald´s wall - A.K.A "The Gonz" True Christian™
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Posts: 2,111
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Ungodly South America
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Re: Even God has to obey Logic -
07-18-2019, 10:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic
No, no, no, you've got it wrong.
The problem with the argument is the logic behind it - it is fallacious. Neither of the premises are false. It would be madness to state otherwise. IF God exists, the world would exist, obviously. But it's an IF. The world could exist without God, or, if it couldn't, this argument in no way supports that.
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Premise 2 is ok then. The world exists, we can measure it, it exists. There is no need for cause here.
Premise 1 is If God's creation exists, then God exists.
So the conclusion is obviously true.
There is no flawed logic there. Unless, of course, you can prove the world was not created by God. Or that the world does not exist.
Please go ahead and prove it, without any doubt.
I am grabbing popcorn.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
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South of the Border outreach program True Christian™
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Re: Even God has to obey Logic -
07-18-2019, 11:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic
Yes and no.
Your Logic, supposedly based on mine:
Premise 1: If God exists, his creation (the world) exists
Premise 2: The world exists, because we can measure it
Conclusion: God exists
The Argument is flawed because it commits the Post hoc fallacy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc). Basically, Premise 2 has other potential explanations.
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Brother Gonz has addressed that perfectly:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Gonzalez
I love how you point towards Premise 2 being the flawed one in Sister Bas' post. So premise one {Premise 1: If God exists, his creation (the world) exists} is true.
Psychologist would say that was your subconcious. We know otherwise: is the way the Holy Ghost is leading you to be a True Christian. Embrace it, don't be a fool. You could end up in Heaven with all of us!
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Amen, Brother!
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic
Neither of the premises are false. It would be madness to state otherwise. IF God exists, the world would exist, obviously.
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Why? I can easily imagine a reality of a god existing in a wordless void. That, in fact, was the reality before Genesis 1:1.
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Confirmed Enemy of God
BANNED from Landover -- Aeternal Damnation Assured
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Re: Even God has to obey Logic -
07-18-2019, 11:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basilissa
Why? I can easily imagine a reality of a god existing in a wordless void. That, in fact, was the reality before Genesis 1:1.
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It's the sheer Godness of the pre-Genesis epoch I am imagining now. How amazing it could have been, to exist in absolute theostasis? Our Lord is so perfect, He knew the splendorous pressure of us living in Him would be too much to handle, and so He created a tangible universe for us, His children, to live and worship Him, so that He would live in each of us instead (1 Corinthians 3:16) . Isn't our God amazing?
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Re: Even God has to obey Logic -
07-19-2019, 12:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basilissa
Brother Gonz has addressed that perfectly:
Amen, Brother!
Why? I can easily imagine a reality of a god existing in a wordless void. That, in fact, was the reality before Genesis 1:1.
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For your God's sake! Your premises are true, it's your logic that's flawed. Thus, your conclusion is invalid. If God exists as you claim he does, the universe would exist. I am not arguing with that, and Brother Gonzalez's point is moot, as it doesn't address my argument.
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Another brick in Donald´s wall - A.K.A "The Gonz" True Christian™
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Posts: 2,111
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Location: Ungodly South America
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Re: Even God has to obey Logic -
07-19-2019, 01:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic
For your God's sake! Your premises are true, it's your logic that's flawed. Thus, your conclusion is invalid. If God exists as you claim he does, the universe would exist. I am not arguing with that, and Brother Gonzalez's point is moot, as it doesn't address my argument.
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So let's be clear: are you saying that both premises are true, but the conclusion does not follow from those premises?
Are you sure you understand logic? I mean, it must be the case that you had your first logic class in school, and come here to try to debate with graduates in Bible Studies about it.
Nevertheless, you haven't addressed any of my points, you have just taken a detour, thrown a red herring, and started talking to a straw man.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
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Re: Even God has to obey Logic -
07-19-2019, 01:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Gonzalez
So let's be clear: are you saying that both premises are true, but the conclusion does not follow from those premises?
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Yes, That is what I am saying. And the reason that the conclusion does not follow the premises is because the logic showcases a version of the the post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy, which makes the argument fallacious and invalid.
May I also add that your continued use of the Ad Hominem fallacy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) is far from helpful to the discussion.
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South of the Border outreach program True Christian™
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Re: Even God has to obey Logic -
07-19-2019, 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic
For your God's sake! Your premises are true,
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Thank you. I stopped reading after that part.
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Re: Even God has to obey Logic -
07-19-2019, 01:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Gonzalez
Premise 2 is ok then. The world exists, we can measure it, it exists. There is no need for cause here.
Premise 1 is If God's creation exists, then God exists.
So the conclusion is obviously true.
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No. Premise 1 is
If God exists, then God's Creation exists.
Not the other way around. I see how you could get it mixed up, but this is a very important distinction to make.
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Re: Even God has to obey Logic -
07-19-2019, 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basilissa
Thank you. I stopped reading after that part.
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Please stop deluding yourself. The premises of an argument being true do not make the conclusion true. Consider the following argument:
Premise 1: Some cars have wheels
Premise 2: Some cars are red
Conclusion: All red things have wheels
Do you see how the conclusion does not necessarily follow from the premises?
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South of the Border outreach program True Christian™
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Re: Even God has to obey Logic -
07-19-2019, 01:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic
Please stop deluding yourself. The premises of an argument being true do not make the conclusion true. Consider the following argument:
Premise 1: Some cars have wheels
Premise 2: Some cars are red
Conclusion: All red things have wheels
Do you see how the conclusion does not necessarily follow from the premises?
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Don't you?
Premise 1 and 2 talks about "some cars" - that is, from all things which can be named cars, these premises select only some.
The conclusion does not relate to neither one of the premises (very different from the God premises as discussed), as it does not talk about "some stuff," but rather about all things red. So it happens that I'm drinking Peruvian chocolate from a red cup right now, and let me reassure you: it does not have wheels!
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Re: Even God has to obey Logic -
07-19-2019, 02:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basilissa
Don't you?
Premise 1 and 2 talks about "some cars" - that is, from all things which can be named cars, these premises select only some.
The conclusion does not relate to neither one of the premises
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The point here is that just because the premises of an argument are true, the conclusion has to logically follow the premises to be valid.
Agreed?
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South of the Border outreach program True Christian™
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Re: Even God has to obey Logic -
07-19-2019, 03:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic
The point here is that just because the premises of an argument are true, the conclusion has to logically follow the premises to be valid.
Agreed?
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I agree that the conclusion has to be logically related to the two premises. Such as in my original statement, that we can know God through His creation.
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Re: Even God has to obey Logic -
07-19-2019, 03:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basilissa
I agree that the conclusion has to be logically related to the two premises. Such as in my original statement, that we can know God through His creation.
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But that's the problem. Let us examine your argument again - it looks something like this, right?
Premise 1: If God existed, the world would exist
Premise 2: The world exists
Conclusion: God exists
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South of the Border outreach program True Christian™
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Re: Even God has to obey Logic -
07-19-2019, 04:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic
But that's the problem. Let us examine your argument again - it looks something like this, right?
Premise 1: If God existed, the world would exist
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Like I said previously, God can exist without a world (and in fact He did, before the event described in Genesis 1:1), so no, that is not my premise.
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Distinguished Professor of Prayer Healing and Creation Zoology (Baraminology) Victim of atheist scientific persecution
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Re: Even God has to obey Logic -
07-19-2019, 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basilissa
Like I said previously, God can exist without a world (and in fact He did, before the event described in Genesis 1:1), so no, that is not my premise.
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Indeed, Sister, this person is using strawman argumentation, making a twisted case of your argument and then attacking this twisted, weaker form. Unsurprisigly, it is fallacy.
Isaiah 25:10
For in this mountain shall the hand of the LORD rest, and Moab shall be trodden down under him, even as straw is trodden down for the dunghill.
Yours in Christ,
Elmer
2 Kings 18:25 - Am I now come up without the LORD against this place to destroy it? The LORD said to me, Go up against this land, and destroy it.
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Trying to out-Methuselah Methuselah You kids get off his lawn!
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Re: Even God has to obey Logic -
07-19-2019, 04:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic
The point here is that just because the premises of an argument are true, the conclusion has to logically follow the premises to be valid. Agreed?
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"The Power of Logic", let's activate one of your unused organs: your brain.
You are visiting a Christian forum trying to use logic to prove to Christians that God does not exist. Apparently you're unaware that it is impossible to prove a negative. Even if God would not exist, there is no way you could ever prove with logic or any other means that God does not exist.
Yet here you are, trying to prove over and over again that God does not exist. Albert Einstein (a very smart person, Google him) said that the definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".
So, as you can see, I have just proven with both logic and evidence that you are insane.
You're welcome!
Freedom means voting for Donald Trump!
To most "Christians" The Bible is like a license agreement. They just scroll to the bottom and click "I agree". All those "Christians" will burn in Hell!
James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
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Re: Even God has to obey Logic -
07-19-2019, 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basilissa
Like I said previously, God can exist without a world (and in fact He did, before the event described in Genesis 1:1), so no, that is not my premise.
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Very well, looks like I was slightly off. Does this seem more like your argument?
Premise 1: If the Bible were true (Particularly the bit where God exists and creates the universe) the universe would exist.
Premise 2: The universe exists
Conclusion: The Bible (at the very least, that bit of it) is true and God does exist.
If it is I will go on to argue against it but not before you confirm that it is, because I do not want to argue against a straw man, Mr White.
Mr Old Man, I am not trying to disprove God. I am merely trying to break down this argument;
Quote:
By the same logic, we cannot measure God but we can measure His creation. So following your logic, you have just proven that God exists, because His creation (everything we see) exists. Good job!
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And explain why it is invalid.
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