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Default Re: Jesus forgave - 03-26-2010, 10:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikeobama View Post
My parents never made anything scary to me, who said so?
So your parents did not warn you for things like fire, cars and heights? Why was that? Where they drunk all the time?


5 Reasons why GOD HATES WOMEN!
To most "Christians" The Bible is like a license agreement. They just scroll to the bottom and click "I agree". All those "Christians" will burn in Hell!
James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
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Ilikeobama Ilikeobama is offline
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How dumb can you get?

 
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Ilikeobama is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.Ilikeobama is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.Ilikeobama is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.
Default Re: Jesus forgave - 03-28-2010, 11:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cranky Old Man View Post
So your parents did not warn you for things like fire, cars and heights? Why was that? Where they drunk all the time?
My parents never drink alcohol. Like I said, peope with normal intelligence just know not to jump from great heights, they just back off when they feel the heat of fire and step aside when they see a car approaching with great speed. I´m glad my parents didn´t make the world more frightening to me than it is. Overprotective parents make frightened, pathetic people with needless fears like you.
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Ilikeobama Ilikeobama is offline
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Ilikeobama is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.Ilikeobama is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.Ilikeobama is a sorcerer and idolater who follows false gods and will rot in Hell.
Default Re: Jesus forgave - 03-29-2010, 12:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heathen_Basher View Post
Oh really, so you read Romans 9 in Hebrew, did you? Funnily enough, I do believe that book is in the NEW TESTAMENT, which was written in GREEK not Hebrew. Why are you lying on this forum, son? God hates that.

But please, go ahead, since you believe it is a mistranslation, tell us all what it really says. Explain to us your vast knowledge that exceeds every English language Bible scholar of all time. I simply need to know. Be careful though, I am able to check up on what you say. I may not yet be fluent in Ancient Greek, but I'm sure I know more than you supposedly know Hebrew
Well, to be honest I don´t even really pay attention to those quotes of yours, because it´s all very badly translated and that´s why you people live with so many misunderstandings. To us only the Tenach really counts, but I translated the letter to the Romans in greek to Hebrew here for you:
פרק א

א פּוֹלוֹס עֶבֶד יֵשׁוּעַ הַמָּשִׁיחַ שָׁלִיחַ נִבְחָר וּמְקֻדָּשׁ לְבַשֵּׂר אֶת־בְּשׁרַת הָאֱהִים׃
ב אֲשֶׁר מִקֶּדֶם הִגִּיד אֹתָהּ עַל־פִּי נְבִיאָיו בְּכִתְבֵי הַקֹּדֶשׁ׃
ג עַל־דְּבַר בְּנוֹ אֲשֶׁר יָצָא מִזֶּרַע דָּוִד לְפִי בְשָׂרוֹ׃
ד וְהוּכַן בֶּן־הָאֱהִים בִּגְבוּרָה לְפִי רוּחַ הַקֹּדֶשׁ בַּהֲקִיצוֹ מִן־הַמֵּתִים הוּא יֵשׁוּעַ הַמָּשִׁיחַ אֲדֹנֵינוּ׃
ה וְעַל־יָדוֹ נִתַּן לָנוּ חֵן וּמַלְאֲכוּת־יָהּ לְהַטּוֹת אֶת־לֵב כָּל־הַגּוֹיִם לָאֱמוּנָה בַּעֲבוּר שְׁמוֹ׃
ו וּבְתוֹכָם הִנְּכֶם גַּם־אַתֶּם קְרִיאֵי יֵשׁוּעַ הַמָּשִׁיחַ׃
ז כָּל־הַקָּהָל בְּרוֹמִי יְדִידֵי אֱהִים בְּחִירָיו וּקְדֹשָׁיו חֶסֶד וְשָׁלוֹם יִתֵּן לָכֶם אֱהִים אָבִינוּ וְיֵשׁוּעַ הַמָּשִׁיחַ אֲדֹנֵינוּ׃
ח בְּפֵתַח דְּבָרַי אוֹדֶה אֶת־אֱהַי בְּיֵשׁוּעַ הַמָּשִׁיחַ בְּעַד־כֻּלְכֶם כִּי אֱמוּנַתְכֶם שָׁמְעָה בְּכָל הָעוֹלָם׃
ט וְהָאֱהִים אֲשֶׁר בִּבְשׁרַת בְּנוֹ אֲנִי עֹבֵד אֹתוֹ בְּרוּחִי וְנַפְשִׁי הוּא עֵדִי כִּי א־חָדַלְתִּי מֵהַזְכִּיר אֶתְכֶם׃
י וּמַעְתִּיר אֲנִי תָמִיד בִּתְפִלּוֹתַי לְמָתַי אֵפוֹא אַצְלִיחַ דַּרְכִּי בִּרְצוֹן אֱהַי לָבוֹא אֲלֵיכֶם׃
יא כִּי־נִכְסֹף נִכְסַפְתִּי לִרְאֹתְכֶם וּלְהַאֲצִיל מִן־מַתְּנַת הָרוּחַ עֲלֵיכֶם לְהוֹסִיף לָכֶם אֹמֶץ׃
יב וְגַם־כֵּן לְהִתְנַחֵם עִמָּכֶם יַחְדָּו בֶּאֱמוּנַת אִישׁ וְאִישׁ מִמֶּנּוּ כְּמוֹכֶם כָּמֹנִי׃
יג וְאֵין־נַפְשִׁי לְהַעֲלִים מִכֶּם אַחַי כִּי־רַבּוֹת נָתַתִּי אֶת־לִבִּי לָבוֹא אֲלֵיכֶם לִמְצֹא לִי מְעַט פְּרִי גַם־בָכֶם כְּמוֹ גַם־בְּיֶתֶר הַגּוֹיִם וְנִמְנַעְתִּי עַד־עָתָּה׃
יד הִנֵּה בַּעַל חוֹב אֲנִי לִבְנֵי הַיְּוָנִים וְגַם־לִבְנֵי עַם עֵז לִבְנֵי בִינָה וְלִבְנֵי בְלִי־בִינָה׃
טו וּבְכֵן נָכוֹן אֲנִי לְפִי יְכָלְתִּי לְהַגִּיד אֶת־הַבְּשׁרָה גַּם־לָכֶם בְּנֵי רוֹמִי׃
טז כִּי א־אֵבוֹשׁ מִבְּשׁרַת הַמָּשִׁיחַ אֲשֶׁר גְּבוּרַת אֱהִים הִיא לִתְשׁוּעָה אֶל־כָּל־מַאֲמִין הַיְּהוּדִי בְּרֹאשׁ וְגַם־הַיְּוָנִי׃
יז כִּי־בָהּ נִגְלְתָה צִדְקַת אֱהִים מִמְּקוֹר אֱמוּנָה לְמַעַן נִחְיֶה בֶאֱמוּנָה כַּכָּתוּב וְצַדִּיק בֶּאֱמוּנָתוֹ יִחְיֶה׃
יח וַחֲרוֹן אֱהִים מִשָּׁמַיִם נִשְׁקָף עַל־עֹשֵׂי רִשְׁעָה וּבְנֵי עַוְלָה הַכֹּבְשִׁים אֶת־הָאֱמֶת בְּעַוְלָתָה׃
יט כִּי דַּעַת אֱהִים בְּרוּרָה בְקִרְבָּם כִּי גִלָּה לָהֶם אֱהִים׃
כ כִּי חֶבְיוֹן עֻזּוֹ נֵצַח גְּבוּרָתוֹ וֵאהוּתוֹ נוֹדְעוּ וְיָצְאוּ לָאוֹרָה עַל־יְדֵי פְעֻלּוֹתָיו מִיּוֹם בְּרֹא אֶרֶץ וְשָׁמָיִם עַד־כִּי אֵין־לָהֶם פֶּה לְהִצְטַדָּק׃
כא כִּי יֹדְעִים הֵם אֶת־הָאֱהִים וְא נָתְנוּ לוֹ כְבוֹדוֹ אַף־א הוֹדוּ לוֹ כִּי אִם־בְּמוֹעֲצוֹתֵיהֶם יֶהְבָּלוּ וְלִבָּם הַנִּבְעָר הָלַ חֲשֵׁכִים׃
כב יִתְאַמְּרוּ כִּי חֲכָמִים הֵם עַל־כֵּן נִבְעָרוּ׃
כג וַיָּמִירוּ כְבוֹד אֲדֹנָי אֵל עוֹלָם בִּדְמוּת תַּבְנִית אָדָם בֶּן־תְּמוּתָה וְתַבְנִית עוֹף הַשָּׁמַיִם וְהוֹלֵ עַל־אַרְבַּע וְרֶמֶשׂ הָאֲדָמָה׃
כד עַל־כֵּן אֱהִים הִסְגִּירָם בְּיַד שְׁרִרוּת לִבָּם לְטֻמְאָה וּלְחַלֵּל בְּשָׂרָם הֵם בֵּינֵיהֶם׃
כה אֲשֶׁר הֵמִירוּ אֱהֵי אֱמֶת בַּשָּׁקֶר וַיִּירְאוּ וַיַּעַבְדוּ אֶת־הַנּוֹצָר עַל־פְּנֵי הַיּוֹצֵר בָּרוּ הוּא לְעוֹלָם וָעֶד אָמֵן׃
כו בַּעֲבוּר זֹאת הִסְגִּירָם אֱהִים בְּיַד קְלוֹן תְּשׁוּקָתָם כִּי גַּם־נְשֵׁיהֶם הֶחֱלִיפוּ אֹרַח חֻקָּתָן בְּאֹרַח זָר׃
כז כַּאֲשֶׁר גַּם־הַגְּבָרִים חָדְלוּ מִבּוֹא אֶל־הַנָּשִׁים כְּדֶרֶ כָּל־הָאָרֶץ וַתִּבְעַר־בָּם אֵשׁ תַּאֲוָתָם אִישׁ אֶל־רֵעֵהוּ וְגֶבֶר בְּגֶבֶר יִתְעַלְּלוּ לְקִיקָלוֹן וְעֵקֶב תַּעְתֻּעֵיהֶם לָקְחוּ דֵי־גְמוּל בְּנַפְשׁוֹתָם׃
כח וְכַאֲשֶׁר א חָפְצוּ הַשְׂכֵּל וְיָדֹעַ אֶת־הָאֱהִים כֵּן עֲזָבָם בִּמְשׁוּבַת לִבָּם לַעֲשׂוֹת אֵת אֲשֶׁר־א יֵעָשֶׂה׃
כט עַד אֲשֶׁר מָלְאוּ כָּל־עַוְלָה זְנוּת רֶשַׁע בֶּצַע וָאָוֶן וְגַם־קִנְאָה וְרֶצַח מָדוֹן וּרְמִיָּה וּמְזִמָּה׃
ל כֻּלָּם מַלְשִׁינִים וְהֹלְכֵי רָכִיל שׁנְאֵי אֱהִים וְהוֹלְלִים גֵּאִים וּרְהָבִים חָרָשֵׁי מַשְׁחִית וּמַמְרִים לְהוֹרֵיהֶם׃
לא חַסְרֵי דַּעַת וּמְפִירֵי בְרִית אַכְזָרִים נֹטְרֵי שִׂנְאָה אֲשֶׁר חֲנִינָה א יֵדָעוּ׃
לב וְהֵם אַף־כִּי יֹדְעִים מִשְׁפַּט אֱהִים כִּי־הָעֹשִׂים מַעֲשִׂים כָּאֵלֶּה בְּנֵי־מָוֶת הֵם בְּכָל־זֹאת א לְבַד כִּי יַעֲשׂוּם כִּי־אִם גַּם־יְאַשְּׁרוּן עוֹד עֹשֵׂיהֶם׃

פרק ב

א עַל־כֵּן בֶּן־אָדָם קָטֹן אוֹ גָדוֹל אֵין צְדָקָה לְ לִהְיוֹת שֹׁפֵט כִּי בַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר תַּרְשִׁיעַ אֶת־רֵעֲ תַּרְשִׁיעַ גַּם אֶת־נַפְשְׁ אַחֲרֵי אֲשֶׁר גַּם־אַתָּה הַשֹּׁפֵט עָשִׂיתָ כְּמַעֲשֵׂהוּ׃
ב וַאֲנַחְנוּ הֲא יָדַעְנוּ כִּי בְּמֵישָׁרִים יִשְׁפֹּט אֱהִים כָּל־פֹּעֲלֵי אָוֶן׃
ג וְאַתָּה בֶן־אָדָם בְּשָׁפְטְ אֹתָם וּכְמַעֲשֵׂיהֶם גַּם־אַתָּה עֹשֶׂה הֲתֹאמַר אֶל־לִבְּ כִּי תִמָּלֵט מִמִּשְׁפַּט אֱהִים׃
ד אוֹ הֲתָבוּז רֹב טוּבוֹ וְחֶמְלָתוֹ וְאֶרֶ אַפּוֹ וְא תִתְבּוֹנֵן כִּי־בְטוּבוֹ הוּא מַדְרִיכְ לָשׁוּב אֵלָיו׃
ה וּבִשְׁרִרוּת לִבְּ וּבְעָרְפְּ הַקָּשֶׁה תִּצְבָּר־לְ עֶבְרָה לַיּוֹם הַגָּדוֹל וְהַנּוֹרָא בְּהִגָּלוֹת נִגְלוֹת צִדְקַת מִשְׁפַּט אֱהִים׃
ו אֲשֶׁר יִגְמֹל לְאִישׁ אִישׁ כְּמִפְעָלָיו׃
ז חַיֵּי עוֹלָם לְשֹׁקְדֵי עֲשׂה־טוֹב שֹׁחֲרֵי כָבוֹד וְהָדָר אֲשֶׁר א יַעֲבֹר לָנֶצַח׃
ח וְזַעַף וְעֶבְרָה לִבְנֵי מֶרִי הַמְמָאֲנִים לִשְׁמֹעַ דִּבְרֵי אֱמֶת וְלַעֲשׂוֹת עָוֶל יָהִינוּ׃
ט צָרָה וְצוּקָה לְכָל־נֶפֶשׁ אִישׁ הַפֹּעֵל רָע הַיְּהוּדִי בְּרֹאשׁ וְגַם־הַיְּוָנִי׃
י וְכָבוֹד וְהָדָר וְשָׁלוֹם לְכָל־פֹּעֵל טוֹב הַיְּהוּדִי בְּרֹאשׁ וְגַם־הַיְּוָנִי׃
יא כִּי אֵין־מַשּׂא פָנִים עִם־הָאֱהִים׃
יב כִּי כָל־אֵלֶּה אֲשֶׁר חָטְאוּ בִּבְלִי־תוֹרָה גַּם בִּבְלִי־תוֹרָה יֹאבֵדוּ וְאֵלֶּה אֲשֶׁר חָטְאוּ וְתוֹרַת אֲדֹנָי אִתָּם עַל־פִּי הַתּוֹרָה הַזֹּאת יִשָּׁפֵטוּ׃
יג כִּי א שֹׁמְעֵי הַתּוֹרָה צַדִּיקִים הֵם לִפְנֵי אֱהִים כִּי אִם־שֹׁמְרֵי הַתּוֹרָה יִצְדָּקוּ׃
יד כִּי הַגּוֹיִם אֲשֶׁר אֵין־לָהֶם אוֹר תּוֹרָה וְעֹשִׂים כְּדִבְרֵי הַתּוֹרָה עַל־פִּי אוֹר דַּעְתָּם הֵם אֲשֶׁר תּוֹרָה אֵין לָהֶם יִהְיוּ תוֹרָה לְנַפְשָׁם׃
טו בְּהַרְאֹתָם כִּי מִשְׁפַּט הַתּוֹרָה כָּתוּב עַל־לוּחַ לִבָּם בַּאֲשֶׁר דַּעְתָּם תַּגִּיד לָהֶם וְעֶשְׁתֹּנוֹתֵיהֶם חֲלִיפוֹת שׂטְנוֹת אוֹ מְזַכּוֹת אִשָּׁה אֶת־אֲחוֹתָהּ׃
טז בַּיּוֹם הַהוּא אֲשֶׁר יִשְׁפֹּט אֱהִים אֶת־סִתְרֵי בְנֵי אָדָם עַל־פִּי יֵשׁוּעַ הַמָּשִׁיחַ כַּאֲשֶׁר הוֹדַעְתִּי בִּבְשׁרָתִי׃
יז וְאַתָּה כִּי נִקְרֵאתָ בְשֵׁם יְהוּדִי וַתָּשֶׁת מִבְטַחֲ בַתּוֹרָה וּבֵאהִים תִּתְהַלֵּל נַפְשֶׁ׃
יח כִּי יָדַעְתָּ אֶת־רְצוֹנוֹ וְתָבִין לְהַבְדִּיל בֵּין־טוֹב לָרָע לִהְיוֹתְ מַשְׂכִּיל בַּתּוֹרָה׃
יט וְלִבְּ בָטוּחַ כִּי אַתָּה הוּא הַמְנַהֵל לְעִוְרִים וְאוֹר לְישְׁבֵי חשֶׁ׃
כ מוֹרֶה לִפְתָאיִם אַלּוּף לִילָדִים וְחוֹתַם תָּכְנִית בְּדַעַת וֶאֱמֶת בַּתּוֹרָה׃
כא וְאַתָּה הַמְאַלֵּף אֶת־אֲחֵרִים הֲא תְאַלֵּף אֶת־נַפְשֶׁ אַתָּה הַקֹּרֵא א־תִגְנֹב הֲתִגְנֹב אָתָּה׃
כב אַתָּה הַאֹמֵר א־תִנְאָף הֲתִנְאֹף אָתָּה אַתָּה אֲשֶׁר תְּשַׁקֵּץ אֶת־הָאֱלִילִים הֲתִמְעַל מַעַל בַּקֹּדֶשׁ׃
כג אַתָּה כִּי תִתְהַלֵּל בַּתּוֹרָה הַתְחַלֵּל שֵׁם הָאֱהִים וְסוּר מִן־הַתּוֹרָה׃
כד כִּי בִגְלַלְכֶם שֵׁם אֱהִים מְחֻלָּל בַּגּוֹיִם כְּמוֹ שֶׁכָּתוּב׃
כה כִּי אָמֵן הַמּוּלָה לְהוֹעִיל לְ אִם־תִּשְׁמֹר אֶת־הַתּוֹרָה אַ אִם אֶת־הַתּוֹרָה הֵפַרְתָּ הֲא מוּלָתְ לְעָרְלָה נִהְיָתָה׃
כו וְאִם הֶעָרֵל יַעֲשֶׂה כְּמִשְׁפַּט הַתּוֹרָה עָרְלָתוֹ לְמוּלָה תֵּחָשֶׁב־לוֹ׃
כז וְהֶעָרֵל הַזֶּה מִלֵּדָה הָעֹשֶׂה כְמִשְׁפַּט הַתּוֹרָה יָדִין אֹתְ אֲשֶׁר יֶשׁ־לְ סֵפֶר הַמִּצְוָה וְאוֹת בְּרִית הַמּוּלוֹת וְאֶת־הַתּוֹרָה הֵפַרְתָּ׃
כח כִּי א־זֶה הוּא יְהוּדִי אֲשֶׁר לָעֵינָיִם וְא זֹאת הִיא הַמּוּלָה אֲשֶׁר לַמַּרְאֶה בַּבָּשָׂר׃
כט אַ זֶה יְהוּדִי אֲשֶׁר בְּתוֹ לִבּוֹ הוּא יְהוּדִי וְהַמּוּלָה מוּלַת הַלֵּבָב הִיא לְפִי רוּחַ הַדִּבֵּר וְא לְפִי אוֹת הַכְּתָב אֲשֶׁר תְּהִלָּתוֹ א מִבְּנֵי אָדָם כִּי אִם מֵאֱהִים׃

פרק ג

א אִם כֵּן אֵפוֹא מַה־יִּתָרוֹן לִיהוּדִי וּמַה־בֶּצַע לוֹ בִּבְרִית הַמּוּלוֹת׃
ב רַב מְאֹד מִכָּל־עֵבֶר וְיִתְרוֹן הָרֹאשׁ כִּי־הָפְקְדוּ אִתָּם דִּבְרֵי אֱהִים׃
ג וּמָה אֵפוֹא אִם־מִקְצָתָם א הֶאֱמִינוּ הֶהָפֵר יָפֵר חֹסֶר אֱמוּנָתָם אֶת־אֱמוּנַת אֱהִים׃
ד חָלִילָה אַ אֱהִים נֶאֱמָן הוּא וְכָל־אָדָם כֹּזֵב כַּכָּתוּב לְמַעַן־תִּצְדַּק בִּדְבָרֶי וְתִזְכֶּה בְּהִשָּׁפְטֶ׃
ה אַ אִם־יִוָּדַע עֹז צִדְקַת אֱהִים עַל־יְדֵי פְשָׁעֵינוּ מַה־נֹּאמַר אֱהֵי עָוֶל הוּא אֲשֶׁר יָעִיר חֲמָתוֹ עָלֵינוּ כְּדֶרֶ בְּנֵי־אָדָם אֲנִי מְדַבֵּר׃
ו חָלִילָה כִּי אִם־כֵּן אֵי־יִשְׁפֹּט אֱהִים אֶת־הָאָרֶץ׃
ז וְאִם־פִּשְׁעִי וְכַחֲשִׁי בֵאהִים יִתֶּן־לוֹ עֹז וְכָבוֹד מִשְׁנֶה לָמָּה־זֶּה אֵצֵא רָשָׁע בְּהִשָּׁפְטִי׃
ח אַ הֲא זֶה הוּא דְּבַר מְנַדֵּינוּ הַמּוֹצִיאִים דִּבָּתֵנוּ רָעָה לֵאמֹר כִּי אֲנַחְנוּ אֹמְרִים נַעֲשֶׂה רָע בִּגְלַל הַטּוֹב אֲשֶׁר יָבֹא בַּעֲקֵבוֹ אֵלֶּה הֵם אֲשֶׁר בְּהִשָּׁפְטָם יֶאְשָׁמוּ׃
ט וּמָה עַתָּה הֲיֵשׁ יִתְרוֹן לָנוּ אֶפֶס וָאָיִן כִּי לִפְנֵי כֵן הוֹכַחְנוּ כִּי יְהוּדִים וִיוָנִים בֶּעָוֹן הֵמָּה יָחַד׃
י כַּכָּתוּב אֵין צַדִּיק אֵין גַּם־אֶחָד׃
יא אֵין מַשְׂכִּיל אֵין דֹּרֵשׁ אֶת־אֱהִים׃
יב הַכֹּל סָר יַחְדָּו נֶאֱלָחוּ אֵין עֹשֶׂה־טוֹב אֵין גַּם אֶחָד׃
יג קֶבֶר־פָּתוּחַ גְּרֹנָם לְשׁוֹנָם יַחֲלִיקוּן חֲמַת עַכְשׁוּב תַּחַת שְׂפָתֵימוֹ׃
יד אֲשֶׁר אָלָה פִּיהֶם מָלֵא וּמְרֹרוֹת׃
טו רַגְלֵיהֶם יְמַהֲרוּ לִשְׁפָּ־דָּם׃
טז שֹׁד וָשֶׁבֶר בִּמְסִלּוֹתָם׃
יז וְדֶרֶ שָׁלוֹם א יָדָעוּ׃
יח אֵין פַּחַד אֱהִים לְנֶגֶד עֵינֵיהֶם׃
יט וַאֲנַחְנוּ יָדַעְנוּ כִּי כָל־אֲשֶׁר תַּגִּיד הַתּוֹרָה לָאֵלֶּה אֲשֶׁר קִבְּלוּ אֶת־הַתּוֹרָה תָּשִׂים דְּבָרֶיהָ וּבָזֹאת יִסָּכֵר כָּל־פֶּה וְכָל־הָאָרֶץ תֶּאְשַׁם לִפְנֵי אֱהִים׃
כ יַעַן בְּמַּעֲשִׂים אֲשֶׁר צִוְּתָה הַתּוֹרָה א יִצְדַּק כָּל־בָּשָׂר לְפָנָיו כִּי מִמְּקוֹר הַתּוֹרָה יָצְאָה דַּעַת הַחֵטְא׃
כא וְעַתָּה מִבַּלְעֲדֵי הַתּוֹרָה יָצְאָה צִדְקַת אֱהִים לָאוֹר אֲשֶׁר הֵעִידוּ עָלֶיהָ הַתּוֹרָה וְהַנְּבִיאִים׃
כב וְצִדְקַת אֱהִים בֶּאֱמוּנַת יֵשׁוּעַ הַמָּשִׁיחַ נְתוּנָה לְכָל־בְּנֵי אָדָם לִבְנֵי אֱמֻנִים כֻּלָּם כִּי אֵין־מַבְדִּיל׃
כג כִּי־כֻּלָּם חָטָאוּ וַיִּסֹּגוּ מֵאַחֲרֵי כְבוֹד אֱהִים׃
כד וּבְחִנּוֹ חִנָּם כֻּלָּם יִצְדָּקוּ כִּי־פָדָה אֹתָם יֵשׁוּעַ הַמָּשִׁיחַ׃
כה הוּא אֲשֶׁר הִקְדִּישׁוֹ אֱהִים מִקֶּדֶם לְכַפֵּר עָלֵינוּ בְדָמוֹ עַל־פִּי אֱמוּנָתֵנוּ לְבַעֲבוּר גַּלּוֹת אֶת־צִדְקָתוֹ וְחֶמְלָתוֹ בַּאֲשֶׁר סָלַח לַעֲוֹנוֹת עַמּוֹ מִימֵי קֶדֶם׃
כו וְגַם לְגַלּוֹת אֶת־צִדְקָתוֹ לְעֵת כָּזֹאת כִּי הוּא הַצַּדִּיק וְהוּא הַמַּצְדִּיק אֶת־הַמַּאֲמִין בְּיֵשׁוּעַ׃
כז אַיֵּה אֵפוֹא עַתָּה גְּאוֹן הַמִּתְהַלְּלִים אֵין כָּל־מְאוּמָה עַל־פִּי אֵיזֶה חֹק עַל־פִּי חָק־הַמַּעֲשֶׂה א כִּי אִם עַל־פִּי חָק־הָאֱמוּנָה׃
כח לָכֵן חָרַצְנוּ לֵאמֹר בָּאֱמוּנָה יִצְדַּק אִישׁ מִבַּלְעֲדֵי הַמַּעֲשִׂים אֲשֶׁר עַל־פִּי הַתּוֹרָה׃
כט הַאֱהִים לַיְּהוּדִים לְבַד הוּא וְא לַגּוֹיִם אָכֵן גַּם־אֱהֵי הַגּוֹיִם הוּא׃
ל כִּי הוּא אֱהִים אֶחָד אֲשֶׁר יַצְדִּיק אֶת־הַמּוּלִים בָּאֱמוּנָה וְאֶת־הָעֲרֵלִים גַּם־כֵּן עַל־יְדֵי הָאֱמוּנָה׃
לא הֲכִי נָפִיר אֶת־הַתּוֹרָה בֶּאֱמוּנָתֵנוּ חָלִילַה אַ נְקַיֵּם אֶת־הַתּוֹרָה׃

פרק ד

א וּמַה־נֹּאמַר עַל־אַבְרָהָם אָבִינוּ מַה־יִּתְרוֹן מָצָא בְּמַעֲשֵׂהוּ׃
ב כִּי לוּ־נִצְדַּק אַבְרָהָם בְּמַעֲשָׂיו נָאוָה־לוֹ תְהִלָּה אַ־א לִפְנֵי אֱהִים׃
ג כִּי מַה־דְּבַר הַתּוֹרָה וְהֶאֱמִן אַבְרָהָם בֵּאהִים וַיַּחְשְׁבֶהָ לּוֹ צְדָקָה׃
ד וּלְאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר מַעֲשֵׂהוּ בְיָדוֹ א יֵחָשֵׁב שְׂכָרוֹ כְּמַתְּנַת חִנָּם כִּי אִם־כְּשִׁלֻּמַת חוֹב׃
ה אַ אִישׁ אֲשֶׁר מַעֲשֵׂה יָדָיו אֵין אִתּוֹ וְהוּא מַאֲמִין בַּמַּצְדִּיק אֶת־הָרָשָׁע עֵקֶב אֱמוּנָתוֹ אֱמוּנָתוֹ זוּ תֵּחָשֵׁב לִצְדָקָה׃
ו כַּאֲשֶׁר גַּם־דָּוִד מְאַשֵּׁר אֶת־הָאָדָם אֲשֶׁר אֱהִים יַצְדִּיקֶנּוּ א עַל־פִּי פָעֳלוֹ׃
ז אַשְׁרֵי נְשׂוּי־פֶּשַׁע כְּסוּי חֲטָאָה׃
ח אַשְׁרֵי אָדָם א־יַחְשֹׁב יְהוָֹה לוֹ עָוֹן׃
ט וָאשֶׁר הַזֶּה לְמִי לְנִמּוֹלִים אוֹ גַם־לַעֲרֵלִים יַעַן נִקְרָא בָזֶה כִּי אֱמוּנַת אַבְרָהָם נֶחְשְׁבָה לּוֹ לִצְדָקָה׃
י וּמָתַי נֶחְשְׁבָה־לּוֹ כֵן אַחֲרֵי הִמֹּלוֹ אוֹ טֶרֶם הִמֹּלוֹ א אַחֲרֵי הִמֹּלוֹ כִּי אִם־טֶרֶם הִמֹּלוֹ׃
יא וְאוֹת בְּרִית הַמּוּלוֹת נָשָׂא לִהְיוֹת לוֹ לְחוֹתַם צִדְקָתוֹ עֵקֶב אֲשֶׁר הֶאֱמִין בְּעוֹדֶנּוּ עָרֵל לְמַעַן יִהְיֶה לְאָב לְכָל־הַמַּאֲמִינִים אַף כִּי־הֵם עֲרֵלִים אֲשֶׁר גַּם־אֱמוּנָתָם תֵּחָשֵׁב לָהֶם לִצְדָקָה׃
יב וְהוּא אָב לְנִמּוֹלִים אַ־א רַק לְנִמּוֹלִים לְבַדָּם כִּי־אִם־גַּם־לָאֵלֶּה הַהֹלְכִים בְּעִקְּבוֹת אֱמוּנָתוֹ אֲשֶׁר הִתְהַלֵּ אַבְרָהָם אָבִינוּ בְּעוֹדֵנוּ עָרֵל׃
יג כִּי א בִגְלַל הַתּוֹרָה בָּאָה הַהַבְטָחָה לְאַבְרָהָם וּלְזַרְעוֹ לִהְיוֹת יוֹרֵשׁ הָאָרֶץ כִּי אִם־בִּגְלַל צִדְקַת אֱמוּנָתוֹ׃
יד כִּי אִם־בַּעֲלֵי הַתּוֹרָה יוֹרְשִׁים הֵם אֱמוּנָה תִהְיֶה לָרִיק וְהַבְטָחָה לְא־דָבָר׃
טו כִּי מִפְּאַת הַתּוֹרָה יֵצֵא הַקָּצֶף כִּי בַאֲשֶׁר אֵין תּוֹרָה אֵין פָּשַׁע׃
טז עַל־כֵּן בְּדֶרֶ אֱמוּנָה תִּמָּצֵא לְמַעַן תִּכּוֹן בְּחֶסֶד וְהַהַבְטָחָה תִהְיֶה נְכוֹנָה לְכָל־הַזָּרַע א לִבְנֵי הַתּוֹרָה לְבַדָּם כִּי־אִם גַּם־לִבְנֵי אֱמוּנַת אַבְרָהָם אֲשֶׁר הוּא אָב לְכֻלָּנוּ׃
יז כַּכָּתוּב כִּי אַב הֲמוֹן גּוֹיִם נְתַתִּי לִפְנֵי אֱהִים זֶה בָּטַח בּוֹ לִבּוֹ הַנֹּתֵן חַיִּים לַמֵּתִים וְהַקֹּרֵא לָאַיִן כַּיֵּשׁ׃
יח וְאַף כִּי א נִרְאָה פֶתַח תִּקְוָה הֶחֱזִיק בְּתִקְוָתוֹ לְהִנָּתֵן אַב־הֲמוֹן גּוֹיִם כַּאֲשֶׁר נֶאֱמַר כֹּה יִהְיֶה זַרְעֶ׃
יט וְכַאֲשֶׁר א הִתְרַפָּה בֶאֱמוּנָתוֹ הִבִּיט אֶל־בְּשָׂרוֹ אֲשֶׁר הָיָה כַמֵּת בִּהְיוֹתוֹ כְּבֶן־מְאַת שָׁנָה וְאֶל־רֶחֶם שָׂרָה אֲשֶׁר בָּלָה׃
כ וְרוּחוֹ א נִפְלְגָה בְקִרְבּוֹ מִבְּלִי אֵמֻן בִּדְבַר אֱהִים כִּי אִם־הִתְגַּבֵּר בֶּאֱמוּנָתוֹ וְנָתוֹן כָּבוֹד לֵאהִים׃
כא וְנַפְשׁוֹ יֹדַעַת מְאֹד כִּי תַשִּׂיג יַד אֵל לְמַלֹּאת אֵת אֲשֶׁר דִּבֵּר׃
כב וְעַל־כֵּן נֶחְשְׁבָה לוֹ לִצְדָקָה׃
כג וְא נִכְתַּב רַק לְמַעֲנוֹ לְבַדּוֹ כִּי לוֹ נֶחְשָׁבָה׃
כד כִּי אִם־גַּם לְמַעֲנֵנוּ אֲשֶׁר כֵּן תֵּחָשֵׁב־לָנוּ הַמַּאֲמִינִים בַּמֵּקִים אֶת־יֵשׁוּעַ אֲדֹנֵינוּ מִן־הַמֵּתִים׃
כה אֲשֶׁר נִמְסַר לַמָּוֶת בִּפְשָׁעֵינוּ וְהֻקַּם עָל לִצְדָקָה לָנוּ׃

פרק ה

א עַל־כֵּן כַּאֲשֶׁר נִצְדַּקְנוּ בָאֱמוּנָה שָׁלוֹם יִשְׁפָּת־לָנוּ אֱהִים עַל־יְדֵי יֵשׁוּעַ הַמָּשִׁיחַ אֲדֹנֵינוּ׃
ב אֲשֶׁר גַּם עַל־יָדוֹ מָצָאנוּ בְדֶרֶ אֱמוּנָה אֶת־שַׁעַר הַחֶסֶד אֲשֶׁר אֲנַחְנוּ בָאִים בּוֹ וּבְעֹז הָאֱהִים נָרִים קֶרֶן כַּאֲשֶׁר קִוִּינוּ לוֹ׃
ג וְא־זֹאת לְבַד כִּי אִם־גַּם בְּצָרָה נָרִים רֹאשׁ אַחֲרֵי אֲשֶׁר יָדַעְנוּ כִּי־צָרָה תוֹלִיד אֶת־עֹצֶר רוּחַ׃
ד וְעֹצֶר הָרוּחַ אֶת־בְּחִינַת לֵב וּבְחִינַת הַלֵּב אֶת־תִּקְוַת נֶפֶשׁ׃
ה וְהַתִּקְוָה א תֵבוֹשׁ בַּאֲשֶׁר הוּצַק בְּלִבֵּנוּ אַהֲבַת־אֵל בְּרוּחַ קָדְשׁוֹ אֲשֶׁר נָתַן עָלֵינוּ׃
ו כִּי בְעוֹד הָיִינוּ רְפֵי יָדָיִם מֵת הַמָּשִׁיחַ בְּעִתּוֹ בְּעַד הַחַטָּאִים בְּנַפְשׁוֹתָם׃
ז הֵן תִּיקַר לְאָדָם נַפְשׁוֹ מִתִּתּוֹ אֹתָהּ בְּעַד נֶפֶשׁ צַדִּיק וּבְעַד הַצְּדָקָה אוּלַי אִישׁ מִתְנַדֵּב יַעְצָר־כֹּחַ לָמוּת בַּעֲדָּהּ׃
ח וֵאהִים גִּלָּה אַהֲבָתוֹ לְעֵינֵינוּ כִּי בְעוֹד הָיִינוּ חֹטְאִים נָתַן הַמָּשִׁיחַ אֶת־נַפְשׁוֹ בַּעֲדֵנוּ׃
ט אַף כִּי־עַתָּה אַחֲרֵי אֲשֶׁר נִצְדַּקְנוּ בְדָמוֹ תּוֹשִׁיעַ לָנוּ יָדוֹ לְהִמָּלֵט מֵחֲרוֹן־אָף׃
י כִּי אִם־בְּעוֹד אוֹיְבִים הָיִינוּ אֲנַחְנוּ הִתְרַצְּנוּ אֶל־הָאֱהִים בְּמוֹת בְּנוֹ אַף כִּי־אַחֲרֵי אֲשֶׁר רָצָה בָּנוּ בְּחַיֵּי בְנוֹ נִוָּשֵׁעַ׃
יא וְא־זֹאת לְבַד כִּי אִם־גַּם רָמָה קַרְנֵנוּ בֵאהִים עַל־יְדֵי יֵשׁוּעַ הַמָּשִׁיחַ אֲדֹנֵינוּ אֲשֶׁר בּוֹ לָקַח רָצוֹן מִיָּדֵינוּ׃
יב לָכֵן כַּאֲשֶׁר הַחֵטְא עָלָה בָאָרֶץ עַל־יְדֵי אָדָם אֶחָד וְהַמָּוֶת בָּא לְרַגְלֵי הַחֵטְא כֵּן פָּגַע הַמָּוֶת בְּכָל־בְּנֵי אָדָם בַּאֲשֶׁר כֻּלָּם חָטָאוּ׃
יג כִּי נִמְצָא חֵטְא בָּאָרֶץ גַּם־לִפְנֵי מַתָּן הַתּוֹרָה וְאַף כִּי חֵטְא א יֵחָשֵׁב בִּבְלִי־תוֹרָה׃
יד בְּכָל־זֹאת שָׁלַט הַמָּוֶת מֵאָדָם עַד־משֶׁה גַּם־בַּפּשְׁעִים אֲשֶׁר פִּשְׁעָם א נִדְמָה לְפֶשַׁע אָדָם הוּא הָאָדָם הָרִאשׁוֹן אֲשֶׁר בִּדְמוּתוֹ כְּצַלְמוֹ הָאָדָם הָאַחֲרוֹן הִתְעַתֵּד לָבוֹא׃
טו אֶפֶס כִּי אֵין עֵרֶ הַפֶּשַׁע כְּעֵרֶ מַתְּנַת חִנָּם כִּי אִם־בְּפֶשַׁע אֶחָד מֵתוּ רַבִּים כַּמֶּה פְעָמִים יֶתֶר עַל־הַמִּדָּה יוֹעִיל לְרַבִּים חֶסֶד אֱהִים וּמַתְּנַת יָדוֹ עַל־פִּי חֶסֶד הָאִישׁ הָאֶחָד יֵשׁוּעַ הַמָּשִׁיחַ׃
טז וְא כַמִּשְׁפָּט הַנֶּחֱרַץ בִּגְלַל הַפּשֵׁעַ הָאֶחָד נִתְּנָה לָּנוּ הַמַּתָּת כִּי הַמִּשְׁפָּט יָצָא לְהַרְשִׁיעַ אֶת־כֻּלָּם בְּפֶשַׁע אֶחָד וְהַמַּתָּת הִיא לְטַהֵר אֶת־כֻּלָּם מִפְּשָׁעִים רַבִּים׃
יז כִּי אִם־בְּפֶשַׁע הָאֶחָד שָׁלַט הַמָּוֶת בָּנוּ עַל־יְדֵי הָאֶחָד אַף כִּי־נֹשְׂאֵי שִׁפְעַת הַחֶסֶד וּמַתְּנַת הַצְּדָקָה יִמְשְׁלוּ בַחַיִּים עַל־יְדֵי הָאֶחָד הוּא יֵשׁוּעַ הַמָּשִׁיחַ׃
יח לָכֵן כַּאֲשֶׁר בְּפֶשַׁע אִישׁ אֶחָד נִשְׁפְּטוּ כָל־בְּנֵי־אָדָם וַיֶּאְשָׁמוּ כֵּן גַּם־בְּצִדְקַת אִישׁ אֶחָד יִזְכּוּ כָל־בְּנֵי־אָדָם לְחַיֵּי צְדָקָה׃
יט כִּי כַּאֲשֶׁר בְּהַפְצַר אִישׁ אֶחָד רַבִּים יָצְאוּ אֲשֵׁמִים כֵּן גַּם־בְּהַקְשֵׁב הָאֶחָד רַבִּים יֵצְאוּ נְקִיִּים׃
כ וּבֵין כֹּה וָכֹה בָּאָה הַתּוֹרָה לְבַעֲבוּר יִגְדַּל הַפָּשַׁע אַ בַּאֲשֶׁר גָּדַל הַפֶּשַׁע שָׁם גָּדַל הַחֶסֶד יֶתֶר מְאֹד׃
כא וְכַאֲשֶׁר שָׁלַט הַחֵטְא בַּמָּוֶת כֵּן יִמְשֹׁל הַחֶסֶד עַל־יְדֵי הַצְּדָקָה לְחַיֵּי עוֹלָם בְּיֵשׁוּעַ הַמָּשִׁיחַ אֲדֹנֵינוּ׃
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Default Re: Jesus forgave - 03-29-2010, 12:33 AM

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Originally Posted by Ilikeobama View Post
Sorry to inform you, but you´re just living an illusion.
I'm following along, here, Ilike, trying to understand you. It seems like you think you understand the Bible better than anyone else, but are, yourself, an atheist.

Am I correct?


Isaiah 24:1-3 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty (2)...as the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him. (3) The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken his word.
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Default Re: Jesus forgave - 03-29-2010, 01:09 AM

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Originally Posted by Johny Joe Hold View Post
I'm following along, here, Ilike, trying to understand you. It seems like you think you understand the Bible better than anyone else, but are, yourself, an atheist.

Am I correct?
No, I am not an atheist, because to deny God would be stupid. I just seem to be a little more familiar with the original Hebrew Tenach and also the latest Greek/Latin parts wich you think are so important. What I´m trying to say is that translating and rewriting the bible by people leads to misunderstandings wich you seem to have a lot. You just can not translate Hebrew, Greek and Latin into English very well because there are different sayings in those languages. It would be the same if I said ´I´d hang it on his nose´, ´the cat´s violin´or ´put a heart under his belt´. Now, my fellow Dutchmen know exactly what I´m talking about, but you just can´t translate these sayings to English accurately and it´s the same with the bible. I think God is a lot more loving and peacefull than you think he is and not only to believers.
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Default Re: Jesus forgave - 03-29-2010, 01:14 AM

A bunch of copy/paste from some online site is supposed to impress us?


Drama queen
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Default Re: Jesus forgave - 03-29-2010, 01:27 AM

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Originally Posted by BelieverInGod View Post
A bunch of copy/paste from some online site is supposed to impress us?
You may think what you want and I don´t really care if you´re impressed or not. What I´m trying to say is that your version is not very accurate. Mr. Heathen Basher asked me to prove this so I did. But without knowing you actually make a good point here. Copy/paste is indeed the main cause of the flaws in your bible.
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Default Re: Jesus forgave - 03-29-2010, 01:50 AM

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Originally Posted by Ilikeobama View Post
No, I am not an atheist, because to deny God would be stupid. I just seem to be a little more familiar with the original Hebrew Tenach and also the latest Greek/Latin parts wich you think are so important. What I´m trying to say is that translating and rewriting the bible by people leads to misunderstandings wich you seem to have a lot. You just can not translate Hebrew, Greek and Latin into English very well because there are different sayings in those languages. It would be the same if I said ´I´d hang it on his nose´, ´the cat´s violin´or ´put a heart under his belt´. Now, my fellow Dutchmen know exactly what I´m talking about, but you just can´t translate these sayings to English accurately and it´s the same with the bible. I think God is a lot more loving and peacefull than you think he is and not only to believers.
You seem to have fallen for the myth that "experts" in translation all agree among themselves. They do not. You also seem to believe that "modern" approaches to translation are better than earlier ones.

We believe that KJV 1611 is the WORD because it was written much closer to the time of Christ than you, living in 2010. While we are happy to have you here in our forum, you need to understand that your soul is at risk by not believing KJV 1611 is the written word of God. Thus, it is imparative that a True Christian™ read it literally.


Isaiah 24:1-3 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty (2)...as the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him. (3) The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken his word.
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Default Re: Jesus forgave - 03-29-2010, 02:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikeobama View Post
You may think what you want and I don´t really care if you´re impressed or not. What I´m trying to say is that your version is not very accurate.
So, I'm trying very hard to enlighten myself on the accurate translation of the Bible.

I think I have it. When the Bible "seems" to condemn usery, Isaiah 24: 1-3, it is actually approving of usery. It goes something like this:

The Bible seems to say thou shalt not receive nor charge interest. But it is really saying, "Interesting, really interesting. I like it."

I believe you should study further and question your view that the Bible is a book with a smiley face on every page.


Isaiah 24:1-3 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty (2)...as the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him. (3) The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken his word.
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Default Re: Jesus forgave - 03-29-2010, 03:17 PM

[QUOTE=Heathen_Basher;492835]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikeobama View Post

We are NOT allowed to question God!

Romans 9:17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
I will get back to the verses you gave me from Numeri and Joshua. I can see a few flaws in the translation, but it´ll take me some time to describe it of course.
First I´ll get back to this part of Romans you gave me.
Romans 9:18 - In this translation it looks like God just picks people at random, because God´s will is translated as that what he wants, but that is not correct. You see, in the original greek version, that what you translated as His will is actually his eternal, sovereign, never changing wisdom and justice wich is something completely different than what we humans call our will. We sometimes want a coffee and sometimes we want tea, but God doesn´t work that way. The Greek version makes this really clear, the English versions don´t.
So what this part says would in modern English is be something like:
He who chooses to live without taking notice of the eternal, sovereign wisdom and justice of God, will always miss this in life with a hardened, tougher life as a result.

Please send me the parts that make you think God ever created evil on purpose. I´m curious what has lead to this misunderstanding.
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Default Re: Jesus forgave - 03-29-2010, 03:58 PM

Nice try, liar.

[QUOTE=Ilikeobama;495521]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heathen_Basher View Post

I will get back to the verses you gave me from Numeri and Joshua. I can see a few flaws in the translation, but it´ll take me some time to describe it of course.
Yes, of course. It will take you plenty of time to try to scramble for an excuse as you work around the fact you don't actually know Hebrew.

Quote:
First I´ll get back to this part of Romans you gave me.
Oh, so you DO know Greek, then?

Quote:
Romans 9:18 - In this translation it looks like God just picks people at random, because God´s will is translated as that what he wants, but that is not correct. You see, in the original greek version, that what you translated as His will is actually his eternal, sovereign, never changing wisdom and justice wich is something completely different than what we humans call our will. We sometimes want a coffee and sometimes we want tea, but God doesn´t work that way. The Greek version makes this really clear, the English versions don´t.
Well, jeez, why is it none of the English Bible translators from all of history haven't been as well-educated as you, friend? Seems anyone with a passing knowledge of Greek that they found online (like you) can correctly interpret scripture, whereas scholars like John Calvin (who knew Greek quite well, and certainly wasn't reading an English translation, especially since he isn't English) give the interpretation of this passage that I do.

The Greek word for "will" in that passage is thelō - it means

1) to will, have in mind, intend
a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose
b) to desire, to wish
c) to love
1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
d) to take delight in, have pleasure


It is used 210 in the Bible, and in all its contexts it is shown to mean: will/would 159, will/would have 16, desire 13, desirous 3, list 3, to will 2, misc 4



It most certainly does not refer to a God's divine wisdom or anything like you suggest, as the word is used in the New Testament to refer to human decisions, and the context does not support your made-up interpretation - in Matthew 1:19, Matthew 2:28, Mark 6:19, Luke 1:62, John 5:6, Acts 7:28, Romans 1:13, 1 Corinthians 4:21, 2 Corinthians 1:8, Galatians 1:7, Colossians 2:1, 1 Thessalonians 2:18, 2 Thessalonians 3:10, 1 Timothy 1:7, Philemon 1:14, Hebrews 10:5, James 2:20, 1 Peter 3:10, 2 Peter 3:5, 3 John 1:13, Revelation 11:5 - and this is just a handful from hundreds.


There is a word that would more closely match your meaning, thelēma, used in other parts of the New Testament, but NOT used here.


Quote:
So what this part says would in modern English is be something like:
He who chooses to live without taking notice of the eternal, sovereign wisdom and justice of God, will always miss this in life with a hardened, tougher life as a result.
Funny, because the text is clearly talking about God performing the action, not a man. The word "will" is a verb, not an abstract noun. Also, your made-up translation seems to completely ignore the first half of that verse. Why is that?

But let's assume your made-up translation was true. What about 9:17? That is quoting the Old Testament of God hardening Pharaoh's heart.

What about 9:15? It says God told Moses some people will get mercy, others not.

What about verse 14? Why would Paul rhetorically ask if people would find fault with God unless he was stating something controversial?

What about verse 13, another quote from the Old Testament. It says God hates Esau.

What about verse 11? It says God decides this before the children are born and before they have done anything at all, either good or evil.

What about verse 19? What is it talking about resisting God's will?

What about verse 20, where it says God forms people certain ways and we cannot answer back to him about it?

Why does verse 21 say God makes some people for honour and some to dishonor? If this was really about human choice - why is the metaphor of a potter being used? Pots don't decide to become badly formed.

Why does verse 22 say these people were created in order to be destroyed?

Also, please, show me some references that back up your made-up translation. I'm really quite interested.

Quote:
Please send me the parts that make you think God ever created evil on purpose. I´m curious what has lead to this misunderstanding.
2 Kings 6:33 Behold, this evil is of the Lord.
Isaiah 45:7 I ... create evil.
Amos 3:6 Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
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Default Re: Jesus forgave - 03-29-2010, 10:04 PM

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Originally Posted by Ilikeobama View Post
I don´t know who translated this for you, but it was very poorly done. The actual bible wasn´t written in English, but in Hebrew you know. As a Hebrew student with Israeli forefathers I know that the original Hebrew version says something completely different.
I believe the New Testament was written in Greek and then perfected in the KJV by being translated into English. That is why America is God's chosen nation.
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Default Re: Jesus forgave - 03-30-2010, 12:16 AM

Oh my God!

I´ve taken a look around the site and I have to say: nice job guys!
I actually thought you were real radical Christians.
I really tried to bring some sense into you, even stating that I was a Christian myself to make you trust me.
I do hope no one really gets strange ideas by reading all this.
Maybe it would be better to give the people some clues on the forums that it is all just true religion. Some people get influenced easily you know.
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Default Re: Jesus forgave - 03-30-2010, 12:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikeobama View Post
I´ve taken a look around the site and I have to say: nice job guys!
Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikeobama View Post
I actually thought you were real radical Christians.
Exactly! We are True Christians, not radical Christians. That's a BIG difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikeobama View Post
I really tried to bring some sense into you, even stating that I was a Christian myself to make you trust me.
That doesn't sound very honest on your part, friend. You should never use your religious affiliation as a "badge". That makes a mockery out of Christianity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikeobama View Post
I do hope no one really gets strange ideas by reading all this.
All they need to do is open the KJV 1611 Bible and read it entirely. That's all the idea they need. Not some cherry-picked verses. ALL OF IT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikeobama View Post
Maybe it would be better to give the people some clues on the forums that it is all just true religion.
We do that a lot, but it doesn't work. They keep saying things like "PROVE that God exists!!!" and "I hope you all ROT IN HELL!!!"

People have to want to see the Light for themselves....... we can only show them where the switch is.


I take my orders from Jesus H. Christ, supernatural born US citizen

Be wary of false Kumbaya Christians who use a highlighter and scissors to read the Bible. God wants us to read the lines, not between the lines. False Christians will go to Hell:
Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Asking a Christian to prove God exists is like asking him to prove his phone rings because yours doesn't. Make that call yourself! Dial 0800-get-on-your-knees-and-pray.
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Default Re: Jesus forgave - 03-30-2010, 12:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikeobama View Post
Praise you!
No friend, praise GOD!


I take my orders from Jesus H. Christ, supernatural born US citizen

Be wary of false Kumbaya Christians who use a highlighter and scissors to read the Bible. God wants us to read the lines, not between the lines. False Christians will go to Hell:
Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Asking a Christian to prove God exists is like asking him to prove his phone rings because yours doesn't. Make that call yourself! Dial 0800-get-on-your-knees-and-pray.
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Default Re: Jesus forgave - 03-30-2010, 01:31 AM

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Originally Posted by Ilikeobama View Post
What about genuine an hoax ?
I have no idea what you are blabbering on about - are you just trying to hide the fact that above you just pretended to know Ancient Greek and made up a ridiculous "Translation" to make the Bible say something it doesn't?
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Exclamation Re: Jesus forgave - 03-30-2010, 03:40 AM

Titus 3

1Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

2To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

9But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

10A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

11Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.


That's what the blessed KJV says about it. You are a heretick. You've been admonished more than once. And I am not saying this. The Bible says it. If you still have a problem with this, take it up with the Good Lord.
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Default Re: Jesus forgave - 03-30-2010, 06:56 AM

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Originally Posted by Heathen_Basher View Post
I have no idea what you are blabbering on about - are you just trying to hide the fact that above you just pretended to know Ancient Greek and made up a ridiculous "Translation" to make the Bible say something it doesn't?
Yes I was, should I prepare for Hellfire now? I have Bepanthem Cream.
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Default Re: Jesus forgave - 03-30-2010, 07:16 AM

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Originally Posted by Ilikeobama View Post
Yes I was, should I prepare for Hellfire now? I have Bepanthem Cream.
What is your beef with us? How are we Scripturally incorrect? Have we not shown you?

Please come up with some sort of something. It can be anything about the Bible.


Christians are superior because we possess an understanding that unbelievers lack. It is through the Power of Jesus only the converted mind is able to understand what is going on in the world; what the Communists are really up to; what Satan's intentions are. Most unbelievers do not even believe in Satan and cannot understand his tactics.



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Default Re: Jesus forgave - 03-30-2010, 07:46 AM

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Originally Posted by Ilikeobama View Post
Yes I was, should I prepare for Hellfire now?
Why not prepare for Heaven instead? It's much more fun!

Why it is very important to avoid hell (you are heading straight for it at the moment): Psalm 9:17 "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." Mark 9:43 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched"


5 Reasons why GOD HATES WOMEN!
To most "Christians" The Bible is like a license agreement. They just scroll to the bottom and click "I agree". All those "Christians" will burn in Hell!
James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
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