[Brother_Percy]

Originally Posted by librarian

Praising God in our own ways.

It all depends on the ways you praise God, friend. Do you go around telling everyone that Jesus was all about love and peace and loves everyone, picking and choosing parts you like just like a liberal sissy, OR do you tell them the TRUTH about our Lord?

Remember, the Bible teaches us that when Jesus returns to Earth he will have white hair, eyes of fire, feet of brass, and has a sword sticking out of his mouth. All those who do not repent and turn to Jesus (ie. atheists, Jews, Wiccans, Buddists, Hindus, Rag-heads) will be fought and slaughtered by Jesus (with the sword sticking out his mouth). Glory!(Revelation 1.13, 2.16)

Jesus will take "vengeance on them that know not God" by burning them forever "in flaming fire". Praise! (2 Thessalonians 1.7)

All those who obey Jesus until the end (ie. Us True Christians) will rule everyone else with an iron rod. They'll even get to smash the others into smithereens! Glory! (Revelation 2.26)

The only way into Heaven in through Jesus. Whoever denies "that Jesus is the Christ" is a liar and an antichrist, and will burn in Hell for all eternity for it! Praise! (1 John 2.22) All non-Christians are deceivers and antichrists (2 John 7)

It REALLY irritates me when liberal Christians try to ignore the Christ of Revelation, even though that's the Christ we're gonna get when he returns, and try to focus on a few miracles he did over 2,000 years ago.

Sure, they were pretty spectacular, but I CAN'T WAIT to see him with his mouth-sword, hacking and slashing apart all those non-believers! Wow! Glory! That'll SURE be one impressive sight! Now THAT'S the Christ I worship! Praise Jesus!

[librarian]

I do not ignore the Jesus of revelation whose enemies will be put to judgement, and neither should you ignore the Jesus that shows compassion and love.

As for my ways of praising God, I am in the process of understanding and learning. I am on a quest for truth as it was written that the truth shall set us free.


About my post earlier, my justification for this idea is that there are many kinds of judgement. There are judgement carried out by judges and people with authority which for the sake of simplicity, I will call judicial judgement. Also, there is a kind of judgement that means decision making.

If anyone has a knowledge of ancient languages and perhaps can demystify us on the original words used by those Bible texts, we can make sure that no meaning is lost in translation.

[Brother_Percy]

Originally Posted by librarian

I do not ignore the Jesus of revelation whose enemies will be put to judgement, and neither should you ignore the Jesus that shows compassion and love.

I ignore NOTHING, friend. I just do not like the "hippy fag-loving Jesus" that sissy liberals Christians LIKE YOU make him out to be.

[librarian]

Originally Posted by Brother_Percy

It all depends on the ways you praise God, friend. Do you go around telling everyone that Jesus was all about love and peace and loves everyone, picking and choosing parts you like just like a liberal sissy, OR do you tell them the TRUTH about our Lord?

Remember, the Bible teaches us that when Jesus returns to Earth he will have white hair, eyes of fire, feet of brass, and has a sword sticking out of his mouth. All those who do not repent and turn to Jesus (ie. atheists, Jews, Wiccans, Buddists, Hindus, Rag-heads) will be fought and slaughtered by Jesus (with the sword sticking out his mouth). Glory!(Revelation 1.13, 2.16)

Jesus will take "vengeance on them that know not God" by burning them forever "in flaming fire". Praise! (2 Thessalonians 1.7)

All those who obey Jesus until the end (ie. Us True Christians) will rule everyone else with an iron rod. They'll even get to smash the others into smithereens! Glory! (Revelation 2.26)

The only way into Heaven in through Jesus. Whoever denies "that Jesus is the Christ" is a liar and an antichrist, and will burn in Hell for all eternity for it! Praise! (1 John 2.22) All non-Christians are deceivers and antichrists (2 John 7)

It REALLY irritates me when liberal Christians try to ignore the Christ of Revelation, even though that's the Christ we're gonna get when he returns, and try to focus on a few miracles he did over 2,000 years ago.

Sure, they were pretty spectacular, but I CAN'T WAIT to see him with his mouth-sword, hacking and slashing apart all those non-believers! Wow! Glory! That'll SURE be one impressive sight! Now THAT'S the Christ I worship! Praise Jesus!

Brother Percy, I am not passing judgement to you or condemning your beliefs, but I cannot help but notice you are so fixated on the violent aspects of the return of Jesus. God was not happy when he had to kill some of his nation to correct their erred ways, instead he was sad. I must tell you of Psalms 11:5 and please meditate on its message.

[librarian]

Originally Posted by Brother_Percy

I ignore NOTHING, friend. I just do not like the "hippy fag-loving Jesus" that sissy liberals Christians LIKE YOU make him out to be.

Nowhere in my posts have I claimed that God loves fags.
God is love (1 John 4:8) and likewise He also owns vengeance (Romans 12:19).

[Bobby-Joe]

Originally Posted by librarian

Brother Percy, I am not passing judgement to you or condemning your beliefs, but I cannot help but notice you are so fixated on the violent aspects of the return of Jesus. God was not happy when he had to kill some of his nation to correct their erred ways, instead he was sad. I must tell you of Psalms 11:5 and please meditate on its message.

Oh we agree friend. Or Savoir will be crying as He commits those acts of tough love as He cuts down the sinning scum like worthless vermin they are. But friend, please keep in mind we His chosen elect have done our best to help the unsaved repent. It is their chose to reject Jesus unconditional love for them so it is their chose to have Jesus smash their sculls in with a sword and feed them to the ravens. We TRUE Christians™ love, but is it the unsaved that hate.

[librarian]

Originally Posted by Bobby-Joe

Oh we agree friend. Or Savoir will be crying as He commits those acts of tough love as He cuts down the sinning scum like worthless vermin they are. But friend, please keep in mind we His chosen elect have done our best to help the unsaved repent. It is their chose to reject Jesus unconditional love for them so it is their chose to have Jesus smash their sculls in with a sword and feed them to the ravens. We TRUE Christians™ love, but is it the unsaved that hate.

I completely agree.

But this discussion has come far from what I was trying to discuss earlier, about our right to judge unbelievers. Please read all my previous posts pertaining to that subject and comment on it as I feel it merits discussion.

[Redeemed Papist]

Originally Posted by librarian

Most, if not all of those bible passages you have mentioned Brother Percy is from Old Testament and as such it was commanded to the the ancient nation of Israel. Also, most of those passages, especially those found in the Pentateuch are laws and are to be judged and condemned accordingly by judges and priests of ancient Israel, not decided by mob collective or lone vigilantes.

John 5:46,47 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

[Bobby-Joe]

Originally Posted by librarian

I completely agree.

But this discussion has come far from what I was trying to discuss earlier, about our right to judge unbelievers. Please read all my previous posts pertaining to that subject and comment on it as I feel it merits discussion.

Were are we judging anything friend? As appropriate to Religion we take a rational assessment of the world, identify self proclaimed enemies of God. Remember, it's the sinner who declares them self against Righteousness, not us.

After that is merely a matter of following God's commands on how to deal with the unrepentantly unsaved.

[librarian]

Originally Posted by librarian

Most, if not all of those bible passages you have mentioned Brother Percy is from Old Testament and as such it was commanded to the the ancient nation of Israel. Also, most of those passages, especially those found in the Pentateuch are laws and are to be judged and condemned accordingly by judges and priests of ancient Israel, not decided by mob collective or lone vigilantes.

On the special occasions where God commanded the nation of Israel to exterminate a group of people as a collective, it was commanded by God personally through his prophets and kings. There are even times during war time where the soldiers of Israel did not have to do anything as an angel of God did all the smiting for them.

Or are you assuming the role of judge and you point out who should be killed today, especially as a collective, where only the God can do it?
Are you denouncing the word of god found at James 3:17 that says: "But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits,without partiality, and without hypocrisy?

Do not misunderstand me, if God Himself commands me to kill, I will do it in his name. But since he has not done so, neither through modern day prophets nor kings anointed by God, I would not taint my soul with murder.

Originally Posted by librarian

Absolutely not! The word of god is absolute. But then in times of Israel, there are judges and kings to guide and judge the people righteously. These said judges and kings are the ones that uphold God's law and makes sure it is not violated. Today, a congregation's authority to judge is limited in authority within its congregation and they should let God judge nonbelievers. (1 Corinthians 5:12-13)

Originally Posted by librarian

Happily, I completely agree. But as I have said before, we should persevere under these times of lawlessness while adhering to the word of God. As much as we hate evil, we cannot let that hate rule our hearts let the love for God dominate. Praising God in our own ways and waiting when God will unleash his judgement. Until then, we should refrain from judging other people as we are all sinners and cannot judge another sinner. God in all his glory, has reserved the right for he can see into the hearts of everyone.

Originally Posted by Brother Harold Porter

The True Christian™ is instructed otherwise. And we are judged only by God Himself.

1 Corinthians 2:15 "But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man."

In Christ

Originally Posted by librarian

I have an idea. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. But I believe what both those texts mentioned mean is that we are given the spirit of God to make judgement of all things, understanding them so we can make the right choice. But judicial judgement of outside the congregation belongs to only God.

Originally Posted by librarian

About my post earlier, my justification for this idea is that there are many kinds of judgement. There are judgement carried out by judges and people with authority which for the sake of simplicity, I will call judicial judgement. Also, there is a kind of judgement that means decision making.

If anyone has a knowledge of ancient languages and perhaps can demystify us on the original words used by those Bible texts, we can make sure that no meaning is lost in translation.

The above are my posts and a post by Brother Harold Porter.

Redeemed Papist, please do us a favor and catch up. Do not pounce on the first issue you think you can use to derail other forum users. Read all my posts before commenting as I have already answered a similar allegation.

I was trying to start an educated and insightful discussion, especially educating for me. Please reply accordingly.

[librarian]

Sorry to everyone if I offended you by my post, especially on the last few parts. I just thought I was pointing out a common forum etiquette. Again I am sorry.
But as a searcher for truth, I am still hoping for the discussion. Especially if anyone knows the original words used on the scripture I mentioned and the scripture Brother Harold Porter as I think it would help clearing out the apparent self-contradiction.
Before anyone accuses me of accusing the Bible of self-contradiction, I do not believe the bible self-contradicts as it is perfect and the word of God. That is why i want to clear that misunderstanding up, by finding out if the meaning was lost in translation.

[Redeemed Papist]

Originally Posted by librarian

Sorry to everyone if I offended you by my post, especially on the last few parts. I just thought I was pointing out a common forum etiquette. Again I am sorry.
But as a searcher for truth, I am still hoping for the discussion. Especially if anyone knows the original words used on the scripture I mentioned and the scripture Brother Harold Porter as I think it would help clearing out the apparent self-contradiction.
Before anyone accuses me of accusing the Bible of self-contradiction, I do not believe the bible self-contradicts as it is perfect and the word of God. That is why i want to clear that misunderstanding up, by finding out if the meaning was lost in translation.

The quote I posted was entirely pertinent. If Jesus Himself felt moved to rebuke people who wanted to discard the Old Testament then it's quite relevant. I was in no way being flippant, I was finding a core point of your argument disingenuous. To assume I hadn't read anything else was a tad patronising.

Just because you consider yourself to be eminently clever does not mean WE are stupid just because we disagree with you.

[librarian]

Originally Posted by Redeemed Papist

The quote I posted was entirely pertinent. If Jesus Himself felt moved to rebuke people who wanted to discard the Old Testament then it's quite relevant. I was in no way being flippant, I was finding a core point of your argument disingenuous. To assume I hadn't read anything else was a tad patronising.

Just because you consider yourself to be eminently clever does not mean WE are stupid just because we disagree with you.

I did not consider anyone of you as stupid nor did I consider myself as clever. I considered your question pertinent to my point, had I not answered it earlier.

Also, as a side note, I was merely stating my understanding of the bible. If I see someone correct whilst I am in the wrong, I learn from it and If I believe I see someone in the wrong, I help them learn the truth (in accordance to 2 Timothy 4:2).

I answered that nowhere in my posts have I discarded the Old Testament or labeled it irrelevant in anyway. In fact I said that it is still absolute (not sure of my exact words) and it is the word of God.

But its application and scope was amended by the commands Jesus gave in the New Testament. As a result, we follow his word both in the Old testament and the New testament.
As for examples of amendments and scope changes, there is no longer king's lineages that pass on judgement on God's people, God no longer consider Israel as his nation, there are rules of conduct written by apostles, and there is the example of Jesus shown in the new testament we now should follow.

Taking for example 1 Corinthians 2:15 mentions spiritual man as one that judges all things. This premise is different from the kings and priests of ancient Israel as the role of priests were taken upon by a single tribe and the bible text I just mentioned possibly includes anyone who is a spiritual person enough.
The bible text I mentioned, 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 mentions that God is the one who judges the unbelievers and the congregation can judge persons in their congregation only. This is more in accordance to the premises of the Mosaic Law, giving the priests (deacons, etc..) power to judge His nation (congregation, church) only. Nowhere did I find in the old Testament where the kings or priests or any Israelite standing up on their own volition and waging war of judgement against other nation, unless commanded explicitly by God Himself. Therefore, it also supports the statement that judgement of non-believers are reserved for God.

The discussion I was hoping for was based on my suggestion that these two seemingly contradicting texts of on how modern (starting at early congregations) judgement can be summarized into a single non-contradicting statement so that we can prove that God's word is not at all contradicting.
So, I presented my idea that the usage of the word judgement can be interpreted into different types of judgement (specific meaning lost in translation). The first Bible text can be considered as given knowledge in order to provide a spiritual person capability to judge all things for himself so he can avoid evil and stay on God's course.
The second bible text's judgement can be considered as judicial judgement or judgement done for the purpose of enacting justice.

This argument also made me interested if the meaning of judgement in both texts can simply be lost in translation from their original Hebrew texts. Therefore, if anyone can prove that the words are different in original Hebrew, we can prove in this instance that the bible does not contradict itself. we can then also understand better as to what each text points out.

Putting my infraction aside (I am not ignoring it nor am I not repentant of my misconduct), I hope this thread moves on and if at all possible I wish my idea will be where it leads. I do no care whether I will be proven wrong or not, but what I hope for is that I gain new understanding as a result of contributions from everyone.

[Billy Bob Jenkins]

Originally Posted by librarian

we follow his word both in the Old testament and the New testament.

I don't see where you could possibly find a point of disagreement with the execution of non-believers by an application of institutionally legitimate force, namely, atomic weapons served by the government.

In order to follow the whole Bible, you must follow every part of it. That means 2 Chronicles 15:13 also.

You said yourself that the New Testament does not contradict the Old Testament, didn't you? So that means we must follow every verse. There are no excuses.

[gods_copilot]

My top ten MOST nukeworthy are:

10.The Middle East (really a country of individual states anyway)
9. France (Really ready to see these rifle-droppers go)
8. North Korea (slipped a few spots since my last rating)
7. The Gambia (peneclaves are disgusting)
6. China (Mr. Spock haircuts and cheap manufacturing capacity make me ill)
5. Brazil (it's best to do it now and just get it over with)
4. Brunei (another peneclave)
3. Australia (I'm really tired of hearing how great they think they are)
2. Iran (Or Persia, whatever)
1. Honduras (I've had BIG problems with the Honduran version of the FAA in the past.)

GOD bless you-

Captain Art

[librarian]

Originally Posted by Billy Bob Jenkins

I don't see where you could possibly find a point of disagreement with the execution of non-believers by an application of institutionally legitimate force, namely, atomic weapons served by the government.

In order to follow the whole Bible, you must follow every part of it. That means 2 Chronicles 15:13 also.

You said yourself that the New Testament does not contradict the Old Testament, didn't you? So that means we must follow every verse. There are no excuses.

Well, I do not disagree with the "execution of non-believers" "served by the government" if its a legitimate force. What I am questioning, is the legitimacy of the act of declaration of war. In the ancient Israel, declaration of war is explicitly under guidance of God, not on the whims of its leaders. Therefore, even if ancient Israel was surrounded by Pagan worshipers, they did not continuously wage war out of their kings' wishes. Instead, they wait for the guidance given by God.

2 Chronicles 15:13, I believe by reading its context, especially at 2 Chronicles 15:12, you will see that this is part of the covenant Israel made with God. As I have said a paragraph ago, even with this "oath", they did not go completely berserk attacking each and every pagan nation on their reach. Also, take note that this was the old covenant, and we can read at Luke 22:20 that Jesus made a new covenant. (also read Hebrews 8:6)

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Originally Posted by librarian

Well, I do not disagree with the "execution of non-believers" "served by the government" if its a legitimate force. What I am questioning, is the legitimacy of the act of declaration of war. In the ancient Israel, declaration of war is explicitly under guidance of God, not on the whims of its leaders. Therefore, even if ancient Israel was surrounded by Pagan worshipers, they did not continuously wage war out of their kings' wishes. Instead, they wait for the guidance given by God.

This is exactly why we at Landover Baptist Church are working tirelessly to get a Godly candidate elected president, then he can scrap the secular U.S. Constitution and replace it with the Holy Bible. That's all America needs for it's laws: God's Holy Word! Shout Glory!!

[Bobby-Joe]

Originally Posted by librarian

Well, I do not disagree with the "execution of non-believers" "served by the government" if its a legitimate force. What I am questioning, is the legitimacy of the act of declaration of war. In the ancient Israel, declaration of war is explicitly under guidance of God, not on the whims of its leaders. Therefore, even if ancient Israel was surrounded by Pagan worshipers, they did not continuously wage war out of their kings' wishes. Instead, they wait for the guidance given by God.

2 Chronicles 15:13, I believe by reading its context, especially at 2 Chronicles 15:12, you will see that this is part of the covenant Israel made with God. As I have said a paragraph ago, even with this "oath", they did not go completely berserk attacking each and every pagan nation on their reach. Also, take note that this was the old covenant, and we can read at Luke 22:20 that Jesus made a new covenant. (also read Hebrews 8:6)

There we are in agreement; Obama thuggish acts against Somalian saliors and Saudis expatriates in the Pakistan is just whims of a power mad megalomaniac who thinks he is above everyone else and completely different the Bush's godly war against the Iraqis, were the Lord Himself told Mr Bush to destroy that country.

[Holyfield]

Originally Posted by Billy Bob Jenkins

The only reason Jesus hasn't raptured us yet is because we haven't nuked enough non-believers. Jesus won't return until we have made the world completely unlivable for everyone.

Now listen up! It just took 22000 people three years to build the Atomic Bomb. The Landover Baptist Church is blessed with resources. It owns a 100000 seat amphitheater. If you should put your minds to it, the people of Freehold should in a short time be able to blow the rest of the world to HELL! Then you are free to shape civilization after what is right.

[JohnSmit]

This is atrocious. The Bible tells us to protect the planet and keep it clean. If we nuke half the nations of the world as some of you suggest, that would virtually destroy the entire planet.

Even if you were to take it to the extreme Nazi like levels you are suggesting and perform mass genocide on a country because a handfull of its citizens don't worship God, there are much better ways to do so such as napalm and shelling which would have a much less drastic effect on the planet.