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Jesus Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-17-2019, 03:56 PM

Honestly, with all the grade school mistakes this poor fellow makes, he still thinks he is able to have a deeper comprehension of everything than the Creator. Sort of like seeing a toaster with a missing sensor which results in only burnt toast no matter how he twiddles his knob.


This reminds me of that story of the Jenkins boy, you know, the one who drags his foot.

Well, he was watching the day-shines playing basket ball down at the train yard, seeing those darkies dunk the ball. When he tried it, he feel short by three feet. So he gets this bight idea to use a step ladder. So he climbs to the top of the ladder. Jumps off and shatters his leg when he hit the ground (God pulled on him something fierce!) Ball missed going in the basket too.

Sure was funny to watch.


Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-17-2019, 03:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic View Post
Logic is important.
Not for those who want to obey God. You should know that God hates rational thinking. As humans, we have a choice: obey God and disregard logic, or follow logic and go to Hell.


Which one do you choose?
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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-17-2019, 04:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Hutchins View Post
Honestly, with all the grade school mistakes this poor fellow makes, he still thinks he is able to have a deeper comprehension of everything than the Creator. Sort of like seeing a toaster with a missing sensor which results in only burnt toast no matter how he twiddles his knob.


This reminds me of that story of the Jenkins boy, you know, the one who drags his foot.

Well, he was watching the day-shines playing basket ball down at the train yard, seeing those darkies dunk the ball. When he tried it, he feel short by three feet. So he gets this bight idea to use a step ladder. So he climbs to the top of the ladder. Jumps off and shatters his leg when he hit the ground (God pulled on him something fierce!) Ball missed going in the basket too.

Sure was funny to watch.
Your musings/opinions, while wonderful to read, do not add to the discussion. Though I am not personally against this, I believe this is against some forum rules
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Jesus Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-17-2019, 04:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic View Post
Consider me educate a a second time. I'm really sorry, I thought I'd looked it up.

If there is nothing to cause an action, or when an action is not necessitated by logic (everything you do relies on logic - I raise again the challenge of doing something without it) the action does not occur.
If there is nothing to make you drink a cup of tea, you will not drink a cup of tea. If there is every reason for you to drink a cup of tea, but you are not subject to the laws of logic, there is nothing to say you will drink that cup of tea; as such you will not drink a cup of tea.
Logic entails cause and effect. In God's Creation, at the deepest level, there are occurrences that have a lack of cause: the appearance of virtual particles and radioactive decay. In these cases there is nothing to cause an action. While my drinking a cup of tea may well require motivation/case, etc., these events that are parts of the most fundamental structure of the world, do not. Otherwise you'd be able to predict exactly when (within a Planck time) an event of radioactive decay takes place and not just make a general statistical notion of its likelihood. Are you able to do that? This means that at the very base of the Creation lies the defiance of your logic by God.

Job 38:4
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Incidentally, your frequent mentions of being educated are an example of an appeal to authority. Surely you know that it is fallacy. Based on the secular logic, it is only your arguments that matter, not if you are better educated than two hours ago. You probably agree that these rules are imperative to all discussion, and that disobeying them leads to anarchy, don't you? And no, I still am not calling you Shirley.

Yours in Christ,

Elmer


2 Kings 18:25 - Am I now come up without the LORD against this place to destroy it? The LORD said to me, Go up against this land, and destroy it.



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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-17-2019, 04:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmer G. White View Post
Logic entails cause and effect. In God's Creation, at the deepest level, there are occurrences that have a lack of cause: the appearance of virtual particles and radioactive decay. In these cases there is nothing to cause an action. While my drinking a cup of tea may well require motivation/case, etc., these events that are parts of the most fundamental structure of the world, do not. Otherwise you'd be able to predict exactly when (within a Planck time) an event of radioactive decay takes place and not just make a general statistical notion of its likelihood. Are you able to do that? This means that at the very base of the Creation lies the defiance of your logic by God.

Job 38:4
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Incidentally, your frequent mentions of being educated are an example of an appeal to authority. Surely you know that it is fallacy. Based on the secular logic, it is only your arguments that matter, not if you are better educated than two hours ago. You probably agree that these rules are imperative to all discussion, and that disobeying them leads to anarchy, don't you? And no, I still am not calling you Shirley.

Yours in Christ,

Elmer
You make some good points. I will concede that a God could exist apart from the laws of Logic.


I have but a couple more things to say. When I said "Consider me educated" I did not mean in any way to brag or appeal to authority. I simply meant that you have taught me a thing, or encouraged me to look up a thing, as a result of which I have become more educated. Secondly, when did I ever ask you to call me Shirley? This is one point on which I am very confused.
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Cross Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-17-2019, 04:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic View Post
If there is nothing to cause an action, or when an action is not necessitated by logic ... the action does not occur.
Let us examine this once again. The emergence of the Universe is an action. You say that it requires a cause. What would you say that the cause (or the necessary logic) for the existence of something rather than nothing is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic View Post
Secondly, when did I ever ask you to call me Shirley? This is one point on which I am very confused.
Surely you are familiar with the notion that God appreciates humor?

Proverbs 17:22
A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

Let us just say that my not calling you Shirley can be another educational excursion to you, a nice assignment in data acquisition and search.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer


2 Kings 18:25 - Am I now come up without the LORD against this place to destroy it? The LORD said to me, Go up against this land, and destroy it.



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Sinner Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-17-2019, 04:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic View Post
Your musings/opinions, while wonderful to read, do not add to the discussion. Though I am not personally against this, I believe this is against some forum rules
Honestly, I have tried my darnedest to 'dumb it down' for you but it still scoots right over your head like a turkey vulture going after a dead cat.
In the Bible, it is written how God created everything. How all things of the world are defined by His Divine Words™. Nothing man can say or do has not already been said or done by Him. As you expand your understanding, you are only just beginning to have an infinitesimally small grasp on His all encompassing Supreme knowledge.

To put is simply, you are but a drop of water in the ocean of knowledge. As fast as you fall in, you evaporate.

God sees your folly and every mis-step of yours is a leap in to the abyss of Hell.


Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-17-2019, 04:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmer G. White View Post
Let us examine this once again. The emergence of the Universe is an action. You say that it requires a cause. What would you say that the cause (or the necessary logic) for the existence of something rather than nothing is?
Surely you are familiar with the notion that God appreciates humor?

Proverbs 17:22
A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

Let us just say that my not calling you Shirley can be another educational excursion to you, a nice assignment in data acquisition and search.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer
Thank you for that educational excursion. I've heard that Airplane is a good movie, but I haven't watched it yet. I'll do so as soon as I can.


As for the cause of everything and why something exists rather than nothing, the simple Atheist's/Scientist's answer is we don't know yet, and that's okay. I am of the belief that everything that matters can be found out with Science, and I can elaborate on that if you want me to.
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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-17-2019, 04:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic View Post
I am of the belief that everything that matters can be found out with Science, and I can elaborate on that if you want me to.
Do you have any evidence to support this hypothesis, or is it just a belief (that is something that cannot be backed up with evidence)?
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Prayer Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-17-2019, 04:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic View Post
Thank you for that educational excursion. I've heard that Airplane is a good movie, but I haven't watched it yet. I'll do so as soon as I can.

As for the cause of everything and why something exists rather than nothing, the simple Atheist's/Scientist's answer is we don't know yet, and that's okay. I am of the belief that everything that matters can be found out with Science, and I can elaborate on that if you want me to.
Dear Sinner,

I do appreciate your efforts to engage in polite and somewhat logical discussion. If you took some more time to consider these issues and not only repeated the simple "atheist answers" you could have noticed that I actually gave you an answer on a silver platter. I stated that in the Universe there are phenomena that do not seem to require a cause and that these phenomena are quantum occurrences. If you give credence to the Big Band theory (we don't), you might realize that it is at its deepest level also a quantum event, as on the scale of the singularity both classical mechanics and general relativity are useless and quantum mechanics reign. Thus, a quantum event may not require a cause at all. Following this, the Universe as a quantum phenomenon would not necessarily require a cause.

I can reveal this to you. I do know that you may use it to oppose God and Jesus but if you really wish to be educated, you may want to ponder this discussion as a whole and learn from it how you can become a worthy opponent to us True Christians™. We do enjoy the verbal interactions with unbelievers but only rarely are we really challenged.

Of course, we have an answer that is totally satisfactory. We know.

Romans 11:36
For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

For now I rest my case and let you have further discourse with my Brethren and Sisters in Christ.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer


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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-17-2019, 05:00 PM

Mr White (Should I call you Elmer?), thank you for your civil discussion. I shall, as you advise, think more on this.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Basilissa View Post
Do you have any evidence to support this hypothesis, or is it just a belief (that is something that cannot be backed up with evidence)?
Sure.


In essence:




Premise 1: Everything that "matters" in any way has an effect on the material world.
Premise 2: Science is a method by which one can measure things that have an effect on the material world.
Conclusion: Everything that "matters" can be measured by science.




I await your response, though I won't be able to reply for a couple of hours.
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Cross Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-17-2019, 06:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic View Post

In essence:

Premise 1: Everything that "matters" in any way has an effect on the material world.
Premise 2: Science is a method by which one can measure things that have an effect on the material world.
Conclusion: Everything that "matters" can be measured by science.
A lot of assumptons. Kind of stupid to make them when catagorical proofs have already been created.

Premise 1: Who determines 'what matters'? You are creating an opinion.
Premise 2: Science is a method that attempts to verify your opinion.
Conclusion: Everything you care about (your opinions) you can verify by science.


All fine and dandy but it ignores the big questions. Where did everything come from? How did man come to exist (please, lets not use the old 1 in a trillion luck' bit. Anyone with a smidgen of of advanced calculus and probability knows that chance is always a 1:1 relationship) How come God and His Holy Book already has the answers to everything, even the questions not yet asked?


See friend, as a True Christian, I have no need for wild opinions. I have no uninformed doubts. I make no absurd assumptions. I have faith in Jesus Christ and I am secure in the knowledge that since time began, God has had His Finger on us.


Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-17-2019, 06:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic View Post
...Conclusion: Everything that "matters" can be measured by science...
Your science is 200+ years out of date. The clockwork universe died with Newton.


Your theology is ridiculous, as well. If God created this universe (like the Bible claims He did), then He is not of this universe, and the laws here do not apply to Him. The laws that do apply to Him we have no way of knowing, because we are restricted to this universe.


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Trump Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-17-2019, 06:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Didymus Much View Post
Your science is 200+ years out of date. The clockwork universe died with Newton.


Your theology is ridiculous, as well. If God created this universe (like the Bible claims He did), then He is not of this universe, and the laws here do not apply to Him. The laws that do apply to Him we have no way of knowing, because we are restricted to this universe.
As much of an idiot you are, you do understand the reality of the it all except your blind eyed denial of the obvious.


Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-17-2019, 07:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic View Post
Sure.

In essence:

Premise 1: Everything that "matters" in any way has an effect on the material world.
Premise 2: Science is a method by which one can measure things that have an effect on the material world.
Conclusion: Everything that "matters" can be measured by science.

I await your response, though I won't be able to reply for a couple of hours.
So, I'm on my phone and can't be too verbose, but:

1. If you have evidence to back your opinions, don't call them beliefs. Beliefs are for things you can't prove. Opinions which can be proven are hypotheses, theories, laws.


2. While I'm inclined to agree (based on my subjective experience of life) with Premise#1, I don't agree with Premise#2. Hear me out.


Would you be inclined to agree that human emotions have an impact on the material world? Feelings such as love, hate, empathy, jealousy, you name it? I hope you do (if you don't, I will be more than happy to expand on this issue).


Now - how an you measure feelings scientifically? Sure, you can measure brain activity, but can you put a number on it? I'm always amazed by the subjectivity of people's answers when a nurse asks, "on a scale 0 to 10, how much pain do you feel?" Whatever answer given, is subjective. One person's threshold of what is slight and what is severe pain is different. Some people feel pain when they just see a needle, without being poked. Some people poke themselves with needles every day and don't consider that as pain.


So what I'm trying to get at is, that not everything that has impact on material world is objectively measurable. That disproves your second premise, thus making your conclusion invalid.
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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-17-2019, 07:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basilissa View Post
1. If you have evidence to back your opinions, don't call them beliefs. Beliefs are for things you can't prove. Opinions which can be proven are hypotheses, theories, laws.

My apologies. I shall use the appropriate language henceforth.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Basilissa View Post
Would you be inclined to agree that human emotions have an impact on the material world? Feelings such as love, hate, empathy, jealousy, you name it? I hope you do (if you don't, I will be more than happy to expand on this issue).


Now - how an you measure feelings scientifically? Sure, you can measure brain activity, but can you put a number on it? I'm always amazed by the subjectivity of people's answers when a nurse asks, "on a scale 0 to 10, how much pain do you feel?" Whatever answer given, is subjective. One person's threshold of what is slight and what is severe pain is different. Some people feel pain when they just see a needle, without being poked. Some people poke themselves with needles every day and don't consider that as pain.
I agree that we do not, at the moment, have objective scales for feelings. But science can and does explore even these areas; What is Psychology if not the study of thoughts and feelings? At the moment we can explain the causes of most feelings (e.g. Fear is a response to a perceived threat, anger a response to perceived injustice, etc.), but our knowledge of neuroscience is not yet sufficient to measure feelings on a scale of one to ten. Quite likely, one day it will be.


Nevertheless, Premise 2 relies more on the things' impact. Even if we can't measure feelings, we can definitely measure their impact on the world, potentially down to the atom (potentially). To put it bluntly, we may not be able to directly measure your pain, but we could measure the volume in decibels of the sound you emit when you feel it. Of course, this varies from person to person, but these variations can be taken into account.


In this way, even if we cannot measure something directly, we can measure and explore it through the impact it has on the things we can measure.
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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-17-2019, 08:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Power_of_Logic View Post
My What is Psychology if not the study of thoughts and feelings?
Did you just seriously call psychology, a science?

Quote:
At the moment we can explain the causes of most feelings (e.g. Fear is a response to a perceived threat, anger a response to perceived injustice, etc.),
I gather you don't know much about love, or any "gut feelings" which make us like o dislike a person before the first interaction.
Quote:
but our knowledge of neuroscience is not yet sufficient to measure feelings on a scale of one to ten. Quite likely, one day it will be.
I admire your positivism, but I do not share it.

Quote:
Nevertheless, Premise 2 relies more on the things' impact. Even if we can't measure feelings, we can definitely measure their impact on the world, potentially down to the atom (potentially). To put it bluntly, we may not be able to directly measure your pain, but we could measure the volume in decibels of the sound you emit when you feel it. Of course, this varies from person to person, but these variations can be taken into account.


In this way, even if we cannot measure something directly, we can measure and explore it through the impact it has on the things we can measure.
By the same logic, we cannot measure God but we can measure His creation. So following your logic, you have just proven that God exists, because His creation (everything we see) exists. Good job!
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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-17-2019, 09:09 PM

Are we looking to the other side to the fact that God defies logic all the time?For example:
For flooding the world, you need more water than the existing water in the world
Nevertheless, He can flood the entire world. And make the water disappear afterwards. There is no logic nor science to explain this.
God and His actions are not bound by any law.


1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
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Scared Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-17-2019, 10:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Gonzalez View Post
Are we looking to the other side to the fact that God defies logic all the time?For example:
For flooding the world, you need more water than the existing water in the world
Nevertheless, He can flood the entire world. And make the water disappear afterwards. There is no logic nor science to explain this.
God and His actions are not bound by any law.
Right you are, Brother Gonzales!


Everyone knows at one time, the Grand Canyon was filled with water. As were the badlands of Washington and Oregon. The deserts of the Middle East. These waters did not simply flow into the oceans. God removed them after the 40 days and nights of rain. Sponges can only hold so much water (those that have had a flooded basement can testify ro this!)
Praise His Glory!


Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
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Default Re: Even God has to obey Logic - 07-18-2019, 03:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basilissa View Post
By the same logic, we cannot measure God but we can measure His creation. So following your logic, you have just proven that God exists, because His creation (everything we see) exists. Good job!
Yes and no.


Your Logic, supposedly based on mine:
Premise 1: If God exists, his creation (the world) exists
Premise 2: The world exists, because we can measure it
Conclusion: God exists


The Argument is flawed because it commits the Post hoc fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc). Basically, Premise 2 has other potential explanations.


Measuring the world to prove God may be based on the following syllogism:
Premise 1: x thing has been measured
Premise 2: The only explanation, or by far the most likely explanation for x thing being measured in this way is God
Conclusion: God exists


Hope this helps
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