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Reload this Page Was communism a success? A debate with Peter Krackpot.
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Question Was communism a success? A debate with Peter Krackpot. - 11-23-2019, 03:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterKropotkin View Post
Not really, the ottomans were already declining by 1683. The real problem started 1648 with Cossack rebellion in the Ukraine that brought Russia in and then economic system that relied too heavily on serfs based agriculture— didn’t adapt well to issues in the late 17th and early 18th centuries with environmental pressures. So, it saw a terrible decline internally while its neighbors grew. Fredrick the great and the smelled the stench of death in the air for Poland and it was all over...
My point being, dear Piotrek, that Poles did not help themselves by rescuing one of the three countries that soon thereafter made Poland disappear from the political map of Europe for over a century.

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Actually, Marxist regimes have a good track record until Capitalists intervene.
Would you care to provide some examples?... Because from what I know, the communist ideal seems to thrive exclusively in hunting and gathering societies, but once humans put their hands on private property (thanks to the advent of animal husbandry and agriculture), there's no turning back!

Quote:
But, I am socialist not a Marxist and anarchy-syndicalist to boot. So, we want a bottom up non hierarchical formation of the economy and government...
Ah, the buzz word of the day: heterarchy. Again, that works quite excellently in small scale hunting-gathering societies, or in unusually egalitarian (and also small scale) agricultural societies. Once we get to state societies, though, there's no turning back: history shows that even when states die, their remnants just get absorbed by new state societies.

The only recent example of heterarchy that I can think of is the Zapatista movement - which seems to have fizzled out on its own because it's no match for the Mexican state. I suppose you could try to argue that Bolivian MAS (with its supporting structures of workers' and peasants' unions) is supposed to have a Zapatista-like bottom up structure, but if you have seen the news recently, it's a complete mess, too.
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Default Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread - 11-24-2019, 03:39 PM

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Originally Posted by PeterKropotkin View Post
The Pentateuch is pretty funny... i love all the unclean rituals. Then the New Testament is pretty good for fortune cookie logic. I went to catholic school... but I am an atheist since 7...
I take your silence on my questions as you admitting that Marxist regimes do not have a good track record at all, and that heterarchies are no match for the power of the state. In other words, that anarchism is a cute utopia that has no chance of happening.
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Default Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread - 11-24-2019, 04:39 PM

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Originally Posted by Basilissa View Post
I take your silence on my questions as you admitting that Marxist regimes do not have a good track record at all, and that heterarchies are no match for the power of the state. In other words, that anarchism is a cute utopia that has no chance of happening.
Actually, I deem them boring.

But if we must the Soviet Union went from utter destruction in 1945 to space in 1961. China went from abject poverty in the 1900’s-1970’s to today’s command economy success of today.
Then you have the success of the heterarchy of Mondragon in Spain or the 800+ cooperatives that exist in America...

Command economies can be very successful. And so can cooperative systems. The questions are who are systems working for? Capitalism isn’t failing it is doing what it claims making capital grow at the expense of the general population.
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Default Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread - 11-24-2019, 05:22 PM

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Originally Posted by PeterKropotkin View Post
Actually, I deem them boring.

But if we must
Well, you started it!
Quote:
the Soviet Union went from utter destruction in 1945 to space in 1961.
And you really think it was the capitalist system's meddling into Soviet affairs that eventually destroyed that system? Not the 1001 internal problems? If you want, I can build up a decent argumentation to support the thesis that the race to the Moon is one of the important factors that destroyed USSR (putting so much of their resources into something as useless as sending a dog to die in space, instead of investing in things that actually bring profit).

Quote:
China went from abject poverty in the 1900’s-1970’s to today’s command economy success of today.
You can describe the Chinese system as "state's capitalism," or "slavery based," but the point is that this country became wildly successful once it discarded "pure" communism and accepted aspects of capitalism. The date you provide neatly coincides with Nixon's "opening of" China - so we agree that capitalist meddling is what made China great.

Quote:
Then you have the success of the heterarchy of Mondragon in Spain or the 800+ cooperatives that exist in America...
Please note that both exist within states rather than instead of states - big difference from the anarchist dream. So we can agree that heterarchies work well in small-scale societies but cannot replace complex state societies.

Quote:
Command economies can be very successful. And so can cooperative systems. The questions are who are systems working for? Capitalism isn’t failing it is doing what it claims making capital grow at the expense of the general population.
What's the alternative? The Gulag Archipelago? At least in capitalism, people cling to the futile dream of a better future. Communism takes away that dream (even though about the same percentage of people still has the possibility to pull themselves by the bootstraps via bribery, extortion, and other lucrative aspects of working for the state apparatus).

Ever heard of a PGR? These show you that cooperatives imposed by someone are doomed to failed. In capitalist societies, cooperatives can survive is because their membership is voluntary, and the members actually care about their co-op.
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Default Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread - 11-24-2019, 06:29 PM

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Originally Posted by Basilissa View Post
the race to the Moon is one of the important factors that destroyed USSR (putting so much of their resources into something as useless as sending a dog to die in space
It was the communists who first noticed that one death is a tragedy, and one million deaths is a statistic. Well, here's that one death:




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Default Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread - 11-24-2019, 07:16 PM

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Originally Posted by Jeb Stuart Thurmond View Post
It was the communists who first noticed that one death is a tragedy, and one million deaths is a statistic. Well, here's that one death:


Wait. Did something happen to the dog?


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Default Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread - 11-24-2019, 05:35 PM

Quote:
the Soviet Union went from utter destruction
It was "utterly destroyed" because of Communist misrule. Then it got masses of handouts from capitalist countries ("lend-lease" which was never repaid) and pillaged all of Eastern Europe. Which brings us to:

Quote:
to space in 1961.
They built ICBMs with looted technology because mass-murder weapons were their top priority. Meanwhile ordinary people went from peasant huts in 1917 to the same huts in 1992. The only consumer good that the USSR produced reliably was vodka.

Meanwhile South Korea went from a more complete total destruction in the 1950's to the Gangam-style decadence of today without looting or handouts. Japan went from ashes to robot-cafes in the same time. Neither country has a drop of oil, by the way.

Quote:
China went from abject poverty in the 1900’s-1970’s
By 1979 China had been communist for 30 years. "Abject poverty" is an understatement for famines that killed more people than the holocaust.

Your arguments are basically "You know how you hired me as a babysitter and all the children died and the house burned down? Well, the insurance company gave me a new house and I abducted the neighbors kids! That's why all the other babysitters are horrible and I'm the only good one!"


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Default Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread - 11-24-2019, 06:05 PM

You seem to base your worldview on reading a bunch of people's brainfarts and saying "these guys sound pretty smart, let's overthrow everything and put their brainfarts into action."

This is not how science works. Science is more difficult. Economic science - the dismal science - is a lot more boring than reading someone's speculations and marveling at how clever they sound. If you think that economic science is not scientific enough for you, then how about the left start a true economic science, with more scientific rigor?

But it's not about that.

You have a brain stuck in the stone age - the same brain God crafted for Adam - and the modern world makes no sense to a stone age brain.

This is why so many people love sports, riots, sports riots, criminal gangs, gang warfare, cliques, mobs, jocks, cheerleaders, and general stupidity. It's all primitive violence, the scale and patterns are similar to stone age warfare. It comes naturally to people.

In the stone age, every social problem could be solved by whipping up a a mob and launching it at the unpopular person. The stone age left keeps doing this. They don't care that it's ineffective. They only care that it comes naturally to them, and it feels natural.

In the stone age, all economic problems could be solved by whipping up a mob, going after a successful tribe, and stealing their stuff. It comes naturally to people. Leftism comes naturally to people. That's the only reason leftism persists, not because of any successes.

The stone age world you are trying to recreate is one of total bigotry - racism to the point of "you're from another village more than a mile away, so I'll be a hero for murdering you". Not because people were eviler, they just couldn't organize a peace process with their primitive political and economic systems. The same primitive systems you are trying to bring back.

It was not an eco-utopia of wisdom and restraint, stone age people drove to extinction half the species of large animals they came across. Maybe they were wise enough to know what was happening, but they could not stop the slaughter with their primitive political and economic systems. The same primitive systems you are trying to bring back.



In the stone age technology barely ever advanced at all. Stuff like rope took forever to be invented, and forever to spread. Nerds who invented stuff got no respect. You had to be a jock or a cheerleader. They probably knew that they should invent more stuff. They probably knew that they needed to support the nerds who invent stuff. But they couldn't have research and development departments with their primate political and economic systems. The same primitive systems you are trying to bring back.


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Default Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread - 06-19-2022, 03:45 PM

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Originally Posted by Jeb Stuart Thurmond View Post

You have a brain stuck in the stone age - the same brain God crafted for Adam - and the modern world makes no sense to a stone age brain.

This is why so many people love sports, riots, sports riots, criminal gangs, gang warfare, cliques, mobs, jocks, cheerleaders, and general stupidity.

...In the stone age technology barely ever advanced at all. Stuff like rope took forever to be invented, and forever to spread. Nerds who invented stuff got no respect. You had to be a jock or a cheerleader...
I'm not the only one saying this:
50,000 BC might be a little more like a high school than anything else....like the infamous lunch table scene from the movie Mean Girls (I encourage you to watch), with some minor surface alterations, like clothes (picture beads and furs instead).



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Default Re: Jews will be Joos I guess. Netanyahu charged with bribery - 11-24-2019, 05:25 PM

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Originally Posted by PeterKropotkin View Post
Workers of the world Unite.
I take it that you are unemployed and on welfare.





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Default Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread - 11-24-2019, 11:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterKropotkin View Post
Or this one under the capitalists:
The difference is that today nobody is demanding a bloody revolution to turn our nation into a command economy controlled by King Leopold II. Oh wait, that's exactly what the left is doing, except with themselves in the place of King Leopold II.

BTW the moment Belgium heard about what Leopold's command economy was doing, they annexed the Congo and turned it into a normal country. As for communist atrocities from 1917 onward, the left has still not been able to face up to it, after more than a century. Still either red holocaust deniers, or "whataboutist" subject changers like yourself.

As for the British response to the Irish famine, that was Malthusian thinking at work. The only people promoting Malthusian thinking these days are on the far left.


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Jeb Stuart Thurmond Jeb Stuart Thurmond is offline
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Default Re: Was communism a success? A debate with Peter Krackpot. - 11-25-2019, 01:24 AM

Well, Peter Krackpot has showed up but not replied. I guess the debate is over.

Every single time he gets a job as a babysitter, the children die. When we point this out, all he can say is that more than a century ago some babysitters also failed, among the many, many other babysitters that did just fine.

Oh, but we should still hire him. The kids always die when he babysits all because of a conspiracy from the rival babysitters. Yes, capitalists can't do anything right, but we're super-geniuses at meddling, even to the point of somehow sending CIA agents back to mess up the Anabaptists in the 1500's.

And the communists, despite being in constant witch-hunt mode, constantly catching and killing spies by the thousands, are still hopelessly weak against foreign meddling. Something even the crudest and most backward non-communist governments manage to handle.

Back to the metaphor, as a babysitter, your job is to keep the kids alive, even if invisible goblins are trying to poison them. Every other babysitter manages to stop the invisible goblins. Maybe we should keep hiring them.


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Default Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread - 11-25-2019, 03:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeb Stuart Thurmond View Post
The difference is that today nobody is demanding a bloody revolution to turn our nation into a command economy controlled by King Leopold II. Oh wait, that's exactly what the left is doing, except with themselves in the place of King Leopold II.

BTW the moment Belgium heard about what Leopold's command economy was doing, they annexed the Congo and turned it into a normal country. As for communist atrocities from 1917 onward, the left has still not been able to face up to it, after more than a century. Still either red holocaust deniers, or "whataboutist" subject changers like yourself.

As for the British response to the Irish famine, that was Malthusian thinking at work. The only people promoting Malthusian thinking these days are on the far left.
Command economies work see the US in 1941-1945. See China 1979-present and the USSR 1945-1975. All grew faster and stronger than the US. The USSR didn’t collapse because any inherent flaw in the command economy that is fallacy. It failed because it mismanaged the economy. If the economy of the USSR didn’t fail to meet the populations needs over time in favor of the ruling class it would still be running the show. The big failure of the USSR was Glasnost ... openness allowed people to see the historical screwing they were getting.

But, I would advocate a economy where the worker cooperatives (truly worker owned and managed) would determine their own business model within each business sector. Then people could choose between the various products made in the economy between these worker cooperatives. The only things that would be totally publicly owned in the form of large cooperatives: telecommunications, energy, waste removal recycling, water, mass transportation. Schools from pre-k to college all nationalized no private schools.

Everyone would have democracy in education, the work place and political spheres.
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Default Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread - 11-25-2019, 04:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterKrackpot View Post
Command economies work see the US in 1941-1945. See China 1979-present and the USSR 1945-1975. All grew faster and stronger than the US.
Sure, China keeps growing because it enslaves its workers - and it adopted key elements of capitalist system. Soviet Union was also growing on the back of slave labor, also known as gulags. Are you really sure that you want to advocate any of these two models? Worker exploitation, minimal to no wages, eternal threat of being sent to a gulag, complete disregard for the most basic human rights - that's your bright idea for a growing economy?

Quote:
The USSR didn’t collapse because any inherent flaw in the command economy that is fallacy. It failed because it mismanaged the economy. If the economy of the USSR didn’t fail to meet the populations needs over time in favor of the ruling class it would still be running the show.
One, mismanagement of the economy kinda goes hand in hand with command economy. It just doesn't work, because if people are getting the same amount of money whether they work a lot or whether they spend the whole workday poking their fingers inside their noses, there is no incentive to increase production. You know what provides an incentive to increase production? Bonuses that workers get under a capitalist system, where greater production -> greater reward. (Yes it is not a just system because bosses receive astronomically higher rewards, but it's still better than the communist model). In the Soviet block, young idealists who were able to see simple ways to increase effectiveness/productivity, and brought these ideas to their bosses, were met with blank stares and the same question: "Why bother?"

Two, yes the USSR did collapse because of the inherent flaw in its command economy: that is concentrating on the arms race and space race and generally keeping up appearances (such as absurd all-marble train stations) instead of improving lives of people. And the lack of respect for human lives general. You know, people who were alive in 1986 in the Soviet block thank God that the wind from Ukraine went north first, reaching Finland, which promptly sounded the alarm. If it flew just eastwards, we might not know about Chernobyl even today.

I get that you are too young to remember what communism was like, but that's no excuse for ignorance. There are books, you know.

You know what: do not trust books nor me. You should move to North Korea and taste a true communist system for yourself.

Quote:
The big failure of the USSR was Glasnost ... openness allowed people to see the historical screwing they were getting.
That was the Big Failure? Not the fact that the whole economy was failing, just the fact that the people were able to talk about it more-or-less openly?

Quote:
But, I would advocate a economy where the worker cooperatives (truly worker owned and managed) would determine their own business model within each business sector. Then people could choose between the various products made in the economy between these worker cooperatives.
And thousands of small co-ops show that this system works quite well within the capitalist system. Please note that the reason why co-ops work under a capitalist system, is that co-op members voluntarily join co-ops, weighing their pros and cons, and always having the possibility to opt out and start a separate private venture. The Polish PGR's failed because the govt took peoples' lands and forced them to join the co-ops, and the PGR members resented that and basically stole anything that was possible to unscrew.
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Jeb Stuart Thurmond Jeb Stuart Thurmond is offline
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Default Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread - 11-25-2019, 10:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterKrackpot View Post
Command economies work see the US in 1941-1945.
A system built on capitalism, unusually unified by a conformist culture which pretended minorities didn't exist, and almost no immigration. Oh, also the unique incentive structure of "if we don't work together, we're all gonna die". Do you really advocate re-creating these conditions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterKrackpot View Post
But, I would advocate a economy where the worker cooperatives (truly worker owned and managed) would determine their own business model within each business sector. Then people could choose between the various products made in the economy between these worker cooperatives.
Then why do you keep defending Stalin and company? You would serve your cause better by saying you have nothing in common with them.

Quote:
mass transportation. Schools from pre-k to college all nationalized no private schools.
Why these sectors? Why should poor people be locked in place by crappy bus systems? Why ban jitneys, which are often worker-owned?

You know why the middleman state/government focuses on the poor? Because the poor are too powerless to fight back against the crappy monopolies that the middleman state forces upon them.

School is a form of imprisonment already, and now you want to take what few choices we have away? Even Canada has two school boards, and private schools.

How about we make a deal where government can have the breweries and sock manufacturing instead. Then we'll have terrible beer and socks that fall apart after a day, but at least the poor won't be chained to the land like peasants and have our children abducted by the state without even being able to choose which prison.

Quote:
Everyone would have democracy in education
"Democracy" typically does not mean taking away choices and freedom.


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Default Re: Was communism a success? A debate with Peter Krackpot. - 11-25-2019, 11:12 AM

How dare you, son of Kronstadt, to talk about our glorious USSR?

Anarchist were the cause of stress of the first years of the revolution. the seed you planted grow as venom in our youth, making everything difficult. In the name of anarchism you sabotaged everything the revolution was doing. Luckily our fearless leader Trotsky did not have any emotional attachments with you and did the massacre you deserved.


You belong to the lowest of the lowest of the society. Anarchist are scum, and they were treated as such in communist countries. THEY ARE treated as such in communist countries. Only in capitalist countries is where you are treated with respect and what they call "freedom of speech", the capitalist enemy is who gives you a Constitution protecting your right to think and say the bullshit you usually say.


Shut up and talk about what you know, smoking drugs and living in your mom's basement. Let the revolution to the revolutionaries.


Acts 2:44-45
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
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Jeb Stuart Thurmond Jeb Stuart Thurmond is offline
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Default Re: Was communism a success? A debate with Peter Krackpot. - 11-25-2019, 12:46 PM



Quote:
son of Kronstadt
Finally, a real tankie to liven things up.
Quote:
living in your mom's basement
If his family is rich enough to have a basement, doesn't that make him a kulak also? In proper communist countries, it's normal to have 3 generations living in an apartment that most Westerners would call a closet. To promote togetherness, I assume?


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