Pentacostalism

[Pentecost]

Don't be so naive, friend. The teachers' unions are the most powerful lobbying organizations in state politics, and they have no problems getting their liberal agenda shoved through the state legislatures.

I'm a little sneaky suspicious of your username, Pentecost. You aren't one of them tongue-talking, pew-jumping, rattlesnake-kissing Pentecostals, are you?

Concerned,
Pastor Billy-Reuben

I do not speak in tongues. I typically stay in my pew. And I'd never test God by kissing a rattlesnake. I am, however, Pentecostal.

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Beware of Homosexual Sports!

I do not speak in tongues. I typically stay in my pew. And I'd never test God by kissing a rattlesnake. I am, however, Pentecostal.

So far, so good. It's rare, but Pentecostals who are actually Saved do exist. Tell me this, friend -- do you believe in the following doctrines?

• Total Depravity - man is enslaved to sin and unable to save himself.
• Unconditional Election - God chooses who is to be saved.
• Limited Atonement - Jesus paid the penalty for sin for those who are saved only; the unsaved pay their own penalty for sin.
• Irresistible Grace - if God wants you to be saved, you will be saved.
• Perseverance of the Saints - "once saved, always saved".

If so, then I have hope for you.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Pentecost]

Re: Beware of Homosexual Sports!

Tell me this, friend -- do you believe in the following doctrines?

• Total Depravity - man is enslaved to sin and unable to save himself.
• Unconditional Election - God chooses who is to be saved.
• Limited Atonement - Jesus paid the penalty for sin for those who are saved only; the unsaved pay their own penalty for sin.
• Irresistible Grace - if God wants you to be saved, you will be saved.
• Perseverance of the Saints - "once saved, always saved".

If so, then I have hope for you.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

I believe in total depravity.
I do not believe in Unconditional Election because I believe we have free will, and Unconditional Election seems to nullify free will.
I also believe in Unlimited Atonement due to believing that all can be saved if they choosed to be saved. I believe that if you are baptized, believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who was crucified for our sins, and was raised from the dead then you are saved.

[Seeker]

Re: Beware of Homosexual Sports!

Do you believe in that holy laughter like barkin like dogs in Toronto,dancing in teh spirit, slain in teh spirit, if so a demon has got ya!
You emotional people that have to pray just to get a deal on them tomatoes at the grocery store and save up for some good olive oil and them sunday nights. I bet you have those prayer cloth things that cover them womens legs when they fall down in teh spirit to save those men from hell over lusting those size 16 leggs panty hose.

[Brother Temperance]

Re: Beware of Homosexual Sports!

I also believe in Unlimited Atonement due to believing that all can be saved if they choosed to be saved. I believe that if you are baptized, believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who was crucified for our sins, and was raised from the dead then you are saved.

So you don't believe it's necessary to do the will of God?
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Faith without works amounts to just two things, and one of them is "jack".


James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Beware of Homosexual Sports!

With all due respect, friend, you seem to have some funny ideas. My beliefs come straight from the Bible. I'm not sure where yours are coming from.

Pentecost: I believe in total depravity.
I do not believe in Unconditional Election because I believe we have free will, and Unconditional Election seems to nullify free will.
Unconditional Election has nothing to do with free will. You can't just choose to do something that you don't know how to do and that you are physically incapable of. A totally depraved person can't just choose to become saved anymore than a lame person can just choose to walk. Both cases require the Lord to intervene.

Total Depravity means every person is completely corrupt throughout body, mind, and soul. No one is able to do anything that is truly good in God's eyes. Man is by nature enslaved to sin, rebellious and hostile towards God, blind to the truth, and unable to save himself.

Do you really believe a totally depraved person can just up and save himself, by simply deciding to believe something he previously believed to be nonsense and getting dunked in a pool of water? That sounds dangerously like a recipe for false conversion.

These ideas aren't mine. They come straight from scripture. Romans 8-9 is a wonderful explanation of how Total Depravity and Unconditional Election work.

Pentecost: I also believe in Unlimited Atonement due to believing that all can be saved if they choosed to be saved. I believe that if you are baptized, believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who was crucified for our sins, and was raised from the dead then you are saved.
So you believe that Jesus has already paid the penalty for everyone's sins, but most people are still condemned for those sins anyway??? Friend, paid for means paid for.

It sounds like we both believe in a kind of limited atonement. I believe the atonement is limited in scope (to those who are saved), and you believe it is limited in effectiveness (doesn't always work).

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Pentecost]

Re: Beware of Homosexual Sports!

So you don't believe it's necessary to do the will of God?
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Faith without works amounts to just two things, and one of them is "jack".


James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

I believe it's absolutely necessary to do the will of God. I believe when you are saved you do this joyfully. I'm thinking more along the lines
John 6:47 "I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life."

And John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

[Pentecost]

Re: Beware of Homosexual Sports!

[quote=Pastor Billy-Reuben;89016]With all due respect, friend, you seem to have some funny ideas. My beliefs come straight from the Bible. I'm not sure where yours are coming from.

Pentecost: I believe in total depravity.
I do not believe in Unconditional Election because I believe we have free will, and Unconditional Election seems to nullify free will.

Unconditional Election has nothing to do with free will. You can't just choose to do something that you don't know how to do and that you are physically incapable of. A totally depraved person can't just choose to become saved anymore than a lame person can just choose to walk. Both cases require the Lord to intervene.

Total Depravity means every person is completely corrupt throughout body, mind, and soul. No one is able to do anything that is truly good in God's eyes. Man is by nature enslaved to sin, rebellious and hostile towards God, blind to the truth, and unable to save himself.

Do you really believe a totally depraved person can just up and save himself, by simply deciding to believe something he previously believed to be nonsense and getting dunked in a pool of water? That sounds dangerously like a recipe for false conversion.

I understand what you're saying. However, aren't we shown how to be saved through attending church, spiritual mentors, and reading The Bible?

These ideas aren't mine. They come straight from scripture. Romans 8-9 is a wonderful explanation of how Total Depravity and Unconditional Election work.

I agree with this.

Pentecost: I also believe in Unlimited Atonement due to believing that all can be saved if they choosed to be saved. I believe that if you are baptized, believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who was crucified for our sins, and was raised from the dead then you are saved.

So you believe that Jesus has already paid the penalty for everyone's sins, but most people are still condemned for those sins anyway??? Friend, paid for means paid for.

It sounds like we both believe in a kind of limited atonement. I believe the atonement is limited in scope (to those who are saved), and you believe it is limited in effectiveness (doesn't always work).

No, not limited in effectiveness, but only limited if the person isn't saved. I believe that salvation is available to all that choose to be saved. Some do not accept because they refuse to believe. I believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I believe that his blood washed our sins away. That if we believe our name is written in The Lamb's Book of Life. However, the unbeliever does not receive salvation from hell because he choose not to accept and be saved.

Perhaps I am misguided. I'm willing to admit to this. And perhaps you can show me where i'm misguided if you believe so. I'm very much a new Creation in God, and I have much learning to do.

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Beware of Homosexual Sports!

Pentecost: I understand what you're saying. However, aren't we shown how to be saved through attending church, spiritual mentors, and reading The Bible?
A totally depraved person learning how to be saved in this way would be exactly like a quadriplegic learning how to dance by watching American Bandstand.

Pentecost: I believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I believe that his blood washed our sins away. ... However, the unbeliever does not receive salvation from hell because he choose not to accept and be saved.
If everyone's sins were washed away, then why do unbelievers still go to Hell? What are they being punished for, if not sin?

I know it can be hard to accept, but Jesus did not die for everyone.

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Please notice that it says Jesus gave his life a ransom for many, not all.

Then again in Matthew 26:28, Jesus said "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

Again, Jesus said His blood was shed for many for the remission of sins.

I hope this helps.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Pentecost]

Re: Beware of Homosexual Sports!

Very well, Pastor. Your points are well taken with the verses that you have quoted. However, why then with John 6:47 and John 3:16 is there an insinuation that everyone is available to receive salvation?

And if God has chosen who is to be saved, why do we need churches, why do we witness, and why do we need revivals if everything is already written in stone?

Please don't take this as argumentative...I'm truly trying to understand this so that I can be a better informed Christian.

[Dr. Ernest C. Ville, D.C.S.]

Re: Beware of Homosexual Sports!

Be careful there, Pentegram. It is a well-known scientific fact that the more you seek worldly "information", the more likely you are to catch the atheist disease. It's better if you just trust Jesus and His Leaders!

[Seeker]

Re: Beware of Homosexual Sports!

Very well, Pastor. Your points are well taken with the verses that you have quoted. However, why then with John 6:47 and John 3:16 is there an insinuation that everyone is available to receive salvation?

And if God has chosen who is to be saved, why do we need churches, why do we witness, and why do we need revivals if everything is already written in stone?

Please don't take this as argumentative...I'm truly trying to understand this so that I can be a better informed Christian.

Well it is obvious that you need to study the book of Romans. Get back to us when you do.

[Brother Temperance]

Re: Beware of Homosexual Sports!

I believe it's absolutely necessary to do the will of God. I believe when you are saved you do this joyfully. I'm thinking more along the lines
John 6:47 "I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life."

And John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

But do you not agree that those two verses I posted clearly show that faith without works is dead? Surely you're not suggesting that God's Word could contradict itself, are you?

[Rachael Van Helsing]

Re: Pentacostalism

I do not speak in tongues. I typically stay in my pew. And I'd never test God by kissing a rattlesnake. I am, however, Pentecostal.

You don't kiss rattlesnakes? Bah.....no sense of adventure.

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Beware of Homosexual Sports!

I used to be a smoker. I decided to quit one day, and I just gave it up cold turkey. It was easy for me. I never had withdrawal symptoms or cravings or anything of the sort. It was so easy for me, I questioned why others thought quitting smoking was so difficult. The easy assumption was they didn't really want to quit, and were just making excuses. The truth, however, is that I was special, and that for most people, quitting smoking is a truly difficult thing.

Likewise, when I became saved, I looked at all the unsaved folks around me, and asked, "Are these people stupid or something? Why don't they get themselves Saved? Don't they care that they will be tormented forever in Hell if they don't?"

The truth here, however, is that the unsaved are blinded to the truth. Even though it is a plain and obvious fact to me, the unsaved believe that they are in no danger of Hellfire, and no amount of preaching or witnessing will convince them otherwise. Only God can unblind them to the truth.

Do you really believe that anyone with a complete understanding of the choice before them, who is fully capable of making either choice, would actually choose to be tortured forever in Hell over the relative comfort of Heaven?

Pentecost: Very well, Pastor. Your points are well taken with the verses that you have quoted. However, why then with John 6:47 and John 3:16 is there an insinuation that everyone is available to receive salvation?

I think you are insinuating more than is there. Belief is a necessary, but not a sufficient, condition.

John 3:3 Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Devils and demons believe. Why are they not saved?

Pentecost: And if God has chosen who is to be saved, why do we need churches, why do we witness, and why do we need revivals if everything is already written in stone?

Are you familiar with the parable of the sower? The elect do not start out saved. They start out as depraved as everyone else. We witness, because God uses us as his instruments on Earth. When the message hits the ears of the unelect, it is like a seed falling on rocky or thorny ground. When the message hits the ears of the elect, it is like a seed falling on good ground.

We have churches and revivals for two reasons. One is so that we may hear the Word of God and grow spiritually. The other is because the LORD loves to hear his name praised. When we get to Heaven, we will spend every minute of every day praising God forever.

Personally, I can't wait!

Pastor Billy-Reuben