[Eddie James]

Re: Is there any physical proof god exists?

Incorrect, sheep copulator.

The imperfections just show how perfect God is and how anything less than Him equals flaws and imperfections.

I will pray for you.

Pastor Ed

This is nonesencical, please explain.

[Cranky Old Man]

Re: Is there any physical proof god exists?

The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.

Logic doesn't seem to be your thing. That God is perfect doesn't mean everything He created is perfect.

The Bible even explicitly mentions this: Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

So you are wrong and we are right. Game over.

[Pastor Ed Lowman]

Re: Is there any physical proof god exists?

So the christian objection to this argument involves freewill? Ok, Christians say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.

Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.

Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.
Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?

The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.

Incorrect, sheep copulator.

The imperfections just show how perfect God is and how anything less than Him equals flaws and imperfections.

I will pray for you.

Pastor Ed

[Eddie James]

Re: Is there any physical proof god exists?

Perfection, Eddie, is not the only quality that should come into play in this discussion. God made people with choice. People were free to choose how to act, and they chose disobedience. I am not sure that it is our place to judge God's perfection and His decisions and actions within the parameters of that perfection. What I am sure of is that it is upto us to choose to obey God and follow His rules or disobey Him and face the consequences, just as Adam and Eve did. What do you choose?

So the christian objection to this argument involves freewill? Ok, Christians say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.

Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.

Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.
Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?

The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.

[Irinka the repentant jewess]

Re: Is there any physical proof god exists?

Ok, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.

What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.

Perfection, Eddie, is not the only quality that should come into play in this discussion. God made people with choice. People were free to choose how to act, and they chose disobedience. I am not sure that it is our place to judge God's perfection and His decisions and actions within the parameters of that perfection. What I am sure of is that it is upto us to choose to obey God and follow His rules or disobey Him and face the consequences, just as Adam and Eve did. What do you choose?

[Irinka the repentant jewess]

Re: Is there any physical proof god exists?

Before we can discuss the existence of a thing, we must define it. Christians have endowed their God with all of the following attributes: He is eternal, all-powerful, and created everything. He created all the laws of nature and can change anything by an act of will. He is all-good, all-loving, and perfectly just. He is a personal God who experiences all of the emotions a human does. He is all-knowing. He sees everything past and future.
God's creation was originally perfect, but humans, by disobeying him, brought imperfection into the world. Humans are evil and sinful, and must suffer in this world because of their sinfulness. God gives humans the opportunity to accept forgiveness for their sin, and all who do will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven, but while they are on earth, they must suffer for his sake. All humans who choose not to accept this forgiveness must go to hell and be tormented for eternity.


What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.

Again, Eddie, you have decided with your own imperfect (you said it) mind, what God should or should not want, desire, do or create. You have defined His perfection in finite human terms. You cannot fathom someone greater and infinitely more wise and powerful than you (that indeed is the trouble with atheists), and so you end up judging God by your own standards. The truth (sad for you) is that in reality, God is the One who will judge you by His standards and the question is, are you ready for that judgement?

[Eddie James]

Re: Is there any physical proof god exists?

In other words, you want to squeeze God into your own finite mind and make Him obey your primitive rules, and I'd He does not, you conclude that He does not exist. How convenient. Now, a few hundred years ago it seemed impossible for people to be able to fly high in the sky, but today most of us have flown on an airplane. And this is just one example. My point is, just because something appears impossible to you, does not necessarily mean that it cannot exist.

Ok, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.

What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.

[Irinka the repentant jewess]

Re: Is there any physical proof god exists?

It is taken for granted by Christians, as well as many atheists, that a universal negative cannot be proven. In this case, that universal negative is the statement that the Christian God does not exist. One would have to have omniscience, they say, in order to prove that anything does not exist. I disagree with this position, however, because omniscience is not needed in order to prove that a thing whose nature is a self-contradiction cannot, and therefore does not exist.

I do not need a complete knowledge of the universe to prove to you that cubic spheres do not exist. Such objects have mutually-exclusive attributes which would render their existence impossible. For example, a cube, by definition, has 8 corners, while a sphere has none. These properties are completely incompatible: they cannot be held simultaneously by the same object. It is my intent to show that the supposed properties of the Christian God Yahweh, like those of a cubic sphere, are incompatible, and by so doing, to show Yahweh's existence to be an impossibility.

In other words, you want to squeeze God into your own finite mind and make Him obey your primitive rules, and I'd He does not, you conclude that He does not exist. How convenient. Now, a few hundred years ago it seemed impossible for people to be able to fly high in the sky, but today most of us have flown on an airplane. And this is just one example. My point is, just because something appears impossible to you, does not necessarily mean that it cannot exist.

[Eddie James]

Re: Is there any physical proof god exists?

Before we can discuss the existence of a thing, we must define it. Christians have endowed their God with all of the following attributes: He is eternal, all-powerful, and created everything. He created all the laws of nature and can change anything by an act of will. He is all-good, all-loving, and perfectly just. He is a personal God who experiences all of the emotions a human does. He is all-knowing. He sees everything past and future.
God's creation was originally perfect, but humans, by disobeying him, brought imperfection into the world. Humans are evil and sinful, and must suffer in this world because of their sinfulness. God gives humans the opportunity to accept forgiveness for their sin, and all who do will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven, but while they are on earth, they must suffer for his sake. All humans who choose not to accept this forgiveness must go to hell and be tormented for eternity.


What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.

[Eddie James]

Re: Is there any physical proof god exists?

It is taken for granted by Christians, as well as many atheists, that a universal negative cannot be proven. In this case, that universal negative is the statement that the Christian God does not exist. One would have to have omniscience, they say, in order to prove that anything does not exist. I disagree with this position, however, because omniscience is not needed in order to prove that a thing whose nature is a self-contradiction cannot, and therefore does not exist.

I do not need a complete knowledge of the universe to prove to you that cubic spheres do not exist. Such objects have mutually-exclusive attributes which would render their existence impossible. For example, a cube, by definition, has 8 corners, while a sphere has none. These properties are completely incompatible: they cannot be held simultaneously by the same object. It is my intent to show that the supposed properties of the Christian God Yahweh, like those of a cubic sphere, are incompatible, and by so doing, to show Yahweh's existence to be an impossibility.

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: Is there any physical proof god exists?

You act as if you are a devoted christian goody two-shoes, yet you're calling another person a liar and an idiot and claiming that "God" hates him/her, thus showing that you do not know very much about your own "God" otherwise you would know that your "God" doesn't hate anybody.

That's not true. God hates the sin AND the sinner, and Jesus is God (John 10:30 I and my Father are one.).

Lev 20:23 And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

Hosea 9:15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.

Please read the WHOLE Bible before it's too late.

Before you complain about the the fact that the verses I cited were from the Old Testament, as if that somehow makes them worthless, consider this:

In the Old Testament, it says that God hates "all workers of iniquity" (Ps 5:5).

In the New Testament, what does Jesus say that he is going to do to these workers of iniquity? Is he going to love them? Is he going to be their pal, and tell them that it's ok to be themselves? Let's see...

Matt 13:41-42 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I pray that you have found this enlightening.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Is there any physical proof god exists?

ATTENTION blgrant95
can you read?

Post #80
Re: Is there any physical proof god exists?

You act as if you are a devoted christian goody two-shoes, yet you're calling another person a liar and an idiot and claiming that "God" hates him/her, thus showing that you do not know very much about your own "God" otherwise you would know that your "God" doesn't hate anybody.

How can you post something like that when, on the same page just a few posts before your frankly embarrassing effort the following Scripture was available?

Post #73
Re: Is there any physical proof god exists?

Psalm 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalm 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Proverbs 6:16-19 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Hosea 9:15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.

Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

For your absurd statement about God to be shown up as FALSE a single example is all that's required. Here's thirteen:

LIST OF PEOPLE GOD HATES

1. foolish people
2. all workers of iniquity
3. wicked people
4. people who love violence
5. proud people
6. liars
7. people whose hands shed innocent blood
8. people with wicked imaginations
9. people who run swiftly to mischief
10. people who do false witness
11. people who sow discord
12. people from Gilgal
13. Esau

Not my "opinion" [I never express opinions in the board]. GOD'S WORD. If He searched your heart today what would He find?

PSALM 139
17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
KJV

[Alphonse Alban]

Re: Is there any physical proof god exists?

You act as if you are a devoted christian goody two-shoes, yet you're calling another person a liar and an idiot and claiming that "God" hates him/her, thus showing that you do not know very much about your own "God" otherwise you would know that your "God" doesn't hate anybody.

Apparently you have never read the bible.

[blgrant95]

Re: Is there any physical proof god exists?

I'm not so sure about these shrubs and turbins you keep mentioning but we don't need much proof beyond the blessed KJV Bible, see Genesis 1.1: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and earth", did you catch that sport right towards the middle, it says GOD created. What more do you need you retard? HERE it is for ya in pictures in case your book learnins are coming up short.

So as a devoted christian, you're calling another person a retard? YOU sir are the retard along with all of you terrible christian people. Non-religious people who do good things are good people because they choose to be. Christians are good people because they're afraid to burn in hell for eternity. And another thing, the bible was written way back when nobody understood the world or how it works. They created all of these ideas to give people something to believe in. You sir, are an idiot, and a true piece of crap.

[blgrant95]

Re: Is there any physical proof god exists?

OK - I think I can offer you proof but I think that you are a liar when you say you would change your mind in the face of that proof.

I think that you would just keep saying "No, that's not proof." like the idiot child you are.

You have to tell me what sort of proof would make you post on this forum in red in size 72 Font, "I was Wrong - God Exists." Your post must contain no other words than that and your name.

The proof cannot involve God appearing to you or a miracle of your choosing - God hates you already and would not hear your prayer and we here at Landover do not claim miraculous powers (although we do some pretty good work.)

So Listen Up JohnnyNoStars - what proof do you want so that you'll post as I ask?

You act as if you are a devoted christian goody two-shoes, yet you're calling another person a liar and an idiot and claiming that "God" hates him/her, thus showing that you do not know very much about your own "God" otherwise you would know that your "God" doesn't hate anybody.