[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

Don't be silly. When used as directed, the Christian Faith is the only thing that can offer one Salvation from Hell. If one chooses not to obey the LORD's rules in the LORD's world, then one chooses eternal damnation (John 3:18). And good riddance to bad garbage, I say.

Its amazing how many times you perfectly illustrate some of the points made by some of the less religious posters.

I don't know why this lady makes it so complicated. She nags an awful lot. I wonder if her husband shot himself to rid himself of the yammering, but missed and crippled himself. Too bad someone didn't show him the Holy Bible before. He could have learned that controlling his wife would have been worth the effort (Proverbs 21:9).

Awwww, I know your day wouldn't be complete without reading what I wrote. I look forward to your kind words as well.

In any case LocusSolace, if you have no actual support for your beliefs, then why in the world do you hold them? You sound like a preschooler who demands everyone else agree that Big Bird really lives in the next city just because it makes him feel good when as he learns how big and unknown the world really is. Those who need a comforting lie rather than an uncomfortable truth are cowards of the worst kind. They lie to themselves with no concern for Truth™ or Reality™.

You trademark truth, reality, and a few other words like you have exclusive rights to them. If you are so confident, then why the trademarks?

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Hi All

Because humans.

Don't be silly. When used as directed, the Christian Faith is the only thing that can offer one Salvation from Hell. If one chooses not to obey the LORD's rules in the LORD's world, then one chooses eternal damnation (John 3:18). And good riddance to bad garbage, I say.

I don't know why this lady makes it so complicated. She nags an awful lot. I wonder if her husband shot himself to rid himself of the yammering, but missed and crippled himself. Too bad someone didn't show him the Holy Bible before. He could have learned that controlling his wife would have been worth the effort (Proverbs 21:9).

In any case LocusSolace, if you have no actual support for your beliefs, then why in the world do you hold them? You sound like a preschooler who demands everyone else agree that Big Bird really lives in the next city just because it makes him feel good when as he learns how big and unknown the world really is. Those who need a comforting lie rather than an uncomfortable truth are cowards of the worst kind. They lie to themselves with no concern for Truth™ or Reality™.

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

Because humans.

I agree

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Hi All

I care in part because I'm curious about the myths and the archetypes/concepts that they represent. Understanding those gives another way of understanding humanity as a whole. Granted it's another way, not the only way.

Well, I think that you can care about myths with their archetypes and concepts and without caring for the supernatural realm they are supposed to represent. Whether you take a more Jungian view of looking for universals, or Levi-Strauss' view observing permutations and changes of different versions of a single myth, or any other myth analysis method, supernatural doesn't have to be a part of your study at all. In fact, in many cases it can't -- for example with the Bible, you either see it as the infallible Word of God, or split it apart to see echoes of Sumerian tales. The same with any other mythology, too: they are either an internally coherent image of the supernatural or a mosaic of distant echoes of older belief systems.

Hmmm conditions already? *joking* Should the goal be to eliminate the sources? Or to eliminate the reasons for (hunger, poverty, sickness) etc.? Maybe if we worked on dealing with the sources, some of it would get taken care of on its own.

Sounds good in theory, but eliminating reasons for poverty, hunger, etc would mean changing the entire world system.

We actively support injustice each time we buy cheap clothes, shoes, electronics, food etc made by slave labor - and while I don't know, maybe you are extra conscious about these things, but most people do it every day without even giving it a second thought. You need much more than Occupy Wall Street to change that.

Part of that change would have to be a drastic change in ideology. What I'm not sure about, is can you clean up an ideology, such as Christianity, or Islam for that matter, which has been used to justify racism, genocide, ethnocide, misogyny, slavery, etc, and just wipe out that 1700/1300 years of bloody history and say that we are all for love&peace for all now, and please just don't look at millions of skeletons in our closets?

I wish I could remember the Star Trek episode where they were discussing this. Religion (using the all-inclusive definition here), seems very bipolar. It has been used for some of the most depraved things, but at the same time it's been used for some of the most uplifting things as well. Sorry, I spent most of the night sleeping; while Star Trek episodes were playing in the background.

I'm definitely not a Star Trek specialist, but I've read a bit about several religions. I agree that religion has some pluses. As I've said before, it's a useful cane for people who feel too weak to stand on their own. Unfortunately, once we get out of private life domain into the public life domain, religions get pretty oppressive pretty fast. And what is most sad, is that the victims happily accept their oppression because they believe that's their guarantee to get to Heaven. How twisted is that?

P.S.: I'm not a HTML coding specialist either, but you desperately need a crash course on that. [ is used to open a code. ] is used to end a code. Adding extra ones screws up things.

Look at the difference:
[QUOTE=LocusSolace;1168952]text[/quote]
Which without playing with colors comes out as:

text

And that's what you've been doing:
[QUOTE]=LocusSolace;1168952]text[/quote]
Which without color change comes out as:

=LocusSolace;1168952]text

[Didymus Much]

Re: Hi All

...Religion (using the all-inclusive definition here), seems very bipolar. It has been used for some of the most depraved things, but at the same time it's been used for some of the most uplifting things as well...

Because humans.

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

"I don't know" is actually a very good answer when it comes to supernatural stuff. We cannot scientifically prove nor disprove these things. Consequently, the more I think about it, the more the agnostic position - I don't know, I cannot know, and I don't care - seems to me the healthiest way to approach religion.

Thanks. I was actually considering going back and trying to rephrase some if these responses. I wasn't sure if 'I don't know' was going to seem like a frustrating cop-out. The problem was when I thought about how to rephrase it, I still couldn't come up with a better way to.


I care in part because I'm curious about the myths and the archetypes/concepts that they represent. Understanding those gives another way of understanding humanity as a whole. Granted it's another way, not the only way.

I did some reading on it, and yes, it does seem rather... sad and misinformed. I was particularly intrigued by the part about 100,000 x 3 = 150,000. Also, it's amazing how much of the ancient history beliefs is clearly contradicted by actual archaeological evidence. My main beef with the UFO people is, why is it that it's always the Indians and the Egyptians who need extraterrestrials to do everything for them, while you never hear about Greek and Roman accomplishments in the same way? It is applied racism, quite frankly: white people did their stuff on their own, brown people were too stupid to accomplish anything on their own, so let's make up some aliens who did everything for them.

Yes, I know what you mean. I have some interesting gems that I've heard to.

Sorry for the rant. I try to be tolerant and open minded towards other peoples beliefs, but this crap is my limit.

No worries, it's ok. Yours is far from the worst rant, I've heard on any given topic. Honestly you should hear me at times, even (or especially) on my own beliefs.

You seem like a person who could understand some scientific jargon, may I interest you instead in browsing through Google Scholar? I'm sure that if you give it some more specific keywords, you will be able to find something recent and relevant to your particular interests.

I will take a look. I'm sure that will still lead to plenty of questions for you.

But shouldn't our goal be eliminating known sources of hatred and xenophobia, in hope - albeit romantic and certainly Utopian one - of one day eliminating them all?

Hmmm conditions already? *joking* Should the goal be to eliminate the sources? Or to eliminate the reasons for (hunger, poverty, sickness) etc.? Maybe if we worked on dealing with the sources, some of it would get taken care of on its own.

There are good people and bad people. You just need to learn to find the former and avoid the latter. Personally, it took me from elementary to high school to do learn that, but since then it's been much easier.

You have a good point. I'm really sorry about lashing out about that.

Religion is not just the excuse. Religions were created by people with very specific purpose in mind: the purpose of oppressing, exploiting, and/or destroying certain groups of people - be it foreigners, nonbelievers, women, lower classes, homosexuals, independent thinkers, scientists, etc, etc. So yes, people are the ultimate source of all of the injustices created by religions, but people created religions as the justification of these injustices.

I wish I could remember the Star Trek episode where they were discussing this. Religion (using the all-inclusive definition here), seems very bipolar. It has been used for some of the most depraved things, but at the same time it's been used for some of the most uplifting things as well. Sorry, I spent most of the night sleeping; while Star Trek episodes were playing in the background.

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Hi All

The most honest answer I can give you is I don't know. The rest of the answer is to some degree, it's what I have as far as an explanation for some things.

"I don't know" is actually a very good answer when it comes to supernatural stuff. We cannot scientifically prove nor disprove these things. Consequently, the more I think about it, the more the agnostic position - I don't know, I cannot know, and I don't care - seems to me the healthiest way to approach religion.

I have a few particular things I'm looking for, but it's hard to find any info on it on actual scientific sites. The only groups that have anything at all on it (at least that I've found) are the Spirit Science groups, and yes it gets frustrating.

I did some reading on it, and yes, it does seem rather... sad and misinformed. I was particularly intrigued by the part about 100,000 x 3 = 150,000. Also, it's amazing how much of the ancient history beliefs is clearly contradicted by actual archaeological evidence.

My main beef with the UFO people is, why is it that it's always the Indians and the Egyptians who need extraterrestrials to do everything for them, while you never hear about Greek and Roman accomplishments in the same way? It is applied racism, quite frankly: white people did their stuff on their own, brown people were too stupid to accomplish anything on their own, so let's make up some aliens who did everything for them.

Sorry for the rant. I try to be tolerant and open minded towards other peoples beliefs, but this crap is my limit.

You seem like a person who could understand some scientific jargon, may I interest you instead in browsing through Google Scholar? I'm sure that if you give it some more specific keywords, you will be able to find something recent and relevant to your particular interests.

No not really, I have a hard time trusting people in general. I understand where the biases and prejudices in religion are. It's sort of the enemy you know versus the enemy you don't know.

But shouldn't our goal be eliminating known sources of hatred and xenophobia, in hope - albeit romantic and certainly Utopian one - of one day eliminating them all?

I'm working on fixing my issues with people in general, fixing that will probably make some of this come easier.

There are good people and bad people. You just need to learn to find the former and avoid the latter. Personally, it took me from elementary to high school to do learn that, but since then it's been much easier.

No people are the biggest source of biases and prejudices, religion just seems to be the most popular excuse.

Religion is not just the excuse. Religions were created by people with very specific purpose in mind: the purpose of oppressing, exploiting, and/or destroying certain groups of people - be it foreigners, nonbelievers, women, lower classes, homosexuals, independent thinkers, scientists, etc, etc. So yes, people are the ultimate source of all of the injustices created by religions, but people created religions as the justification of these injustices.

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

=Dolores de Barriga;1168880]So, why even bother having a belief structure, if you ar enot going to use it? If you don't use that cane, then why don't you just discard it?

The most honest answer I can give you is I don't know. The rest of the answer is to some degree, it's what I have as far as an explanation for some things. I have little oddities that I've actually been a bit afraid to bring up here, that's part of the reason for the electromagnetic field interest. I keep looking and I keep learning. I believe that as long as I'm willing to keep learning, I'm on the right path.

Cannot yet explain, that would be the way I'd phrase it. In electromagnetic fields I cannot help you, while physics is not my least favorite science -- that title belongs to organic chemistry -- it's all in the realm of black magic for me.

See there is a part of you that still believes in magic *joking*. I have a few particular things I'm looking for, but it's hard to find any info on it on actual scientific sites. The only groups that have anything at all on it (at least that I've found) are the Spirit Science groups, and yes it gets frustrating.

I have a friend like that, he takes strong coffee to sleep well.

. I was beginning to think I was alone there. I originally found out when I was in the hospital (after surgery) and every time I'd ring to tell them I couldn't sleep, they would bring me more pain meds. We finally realized that was what was keeping me up.

I don't think I understand - you trust people's biases and prejudices based on religion more than other sorts of biases and prejudices?

No not really, I have a hard time trusting people in general. I understand where the biases and prejudices in religion are. It's sort of the enemy you know versus the enemy you don't know.


I'm working on fixing my issues with people in general, fixing that will probably make some of this come easier.

Because you know, religions so far have been the greatest source of biases and prejudices in the history of the human kind.

No people are the biggest source of biases and prejudices, religion just seems to be the most popular excuse.

Long time ago, but yes. His Answer to Job was a book that made me really think and doubt my religious convictions in the first place. Then I started to learn about history of religions and the doubts deepened. That was really long time ago, I was in high school. I remember I was impressed at the time. Today, I'm not so sure about the "innateness" of archetypes: it would be really difficult to separate the innate from the effect of cultures interacting and either voluntary or forced diffusion of myths and archetypes.

True enough, and I'm not sure if I can account for that either.

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Hi All

You know even having a beliefs structure, of sorts, I've never used that as something to blame my falls, or even thank for my accomplishments. But that all sort of got covered in our conversations on meditations. But to answer you specific question, no I don't feel that I need that cane.

So, why even bother having a belief structure, if you ar enot going to use it?

If you don't use that cane, then why don't you just discard it?

True, but there are some things that science (at least some of the main stream sciences) can't always explain. Granted some of the studies on electro-magnetic fields can be. In some ways, that probably should be the next area of study in my search.

Cannot yet explain, that would be the way I'd phrase it. In electromagnetic fields I cannot help you, while physics is not my least favorite science -- that title belongs to organic chemistry -- it's all in the realm of black magic for me.

Caffeine makes me tired.

I have a friend like that, he takes strong coffee to sleep well.

Ideally yes, but I'm not sure if I'd trust most people that far.

I don't think I understand - you trust people's biases and prejudices based on religion more than other sorts of biases and prejudices?

Because you know, religions so far have been the greatest source of biases and prejudices in the history of the human kind.

Have you ever studied any of Carl Jung's work? That's been one of the areas that has kept me fascinated.

Long time ago, but yes. His Answer to Job was a book that made me really think and doubt my religious convictions in the first place. Then I started to learn about history of religions and the doubts deepened.

I've used the archetypes before, especially in story telling and gaming. I know it's a bit random, but I wanted to hear your thoughts on it.

That was really long time ago, I was in high school. I remember I was impressed at the time. Today, I'm not so sure about the "innateness" of archetypes: it would be really difficult to separate the innate from the effect of cultures interacting and either voluntary or forced diffusion of myths and archetypes.

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

=Dolores de Barriga;1168870]In other words: some people who feel too weak to stand up to the challenges on their own need a walking cane. It doesn't really matter whether it's a Genuine™ cane, they just need something to lean on: they need something supernatural to blame their falls on, and something supernatural to thank for getting up again. I am inclined to agree with this. I know plenty of people like that. However, at some point you need to ask yourself, as an intelligent, strong person, do you really need that cane? Isn't it a little bit like, cheating yourself?

You know even having a beliefs structure, of sorts, I've never used that as something to blame my falls, or even thank for my accomplishments. But that all sort of got covered in our conversations on meditations. But to answer you specific question, no I don't feel that I need that cane.

As far as meditation and new ideas go - that's because of the relaxation. The best ideas come up when you're not trying too hard. For me it's often my dreams that bring the best solutions.

I agree there. I love looking at my dreams for solutions.

No it can't, because religion/spirituality does not depend on evidence, just on faith. If religion depended on evidence, we would have many more atheists/agnostics than we do.

True, but there are some things that science (at least some of the main stream sciences) can't always explain. Granted some of the studies on electro-magnetic fields can be. In some ways, that probably should be the next area of study in my search.

I have such a weak head I'd be in the lalala land after a single shot.

Have you ever heard of a person having a parodoxal effect to medication? Basically I react opposite to the way that most drugs are supposed to respond. Alcohol wakes me up. I don't drink that often, for that reason. I don't really want to be dependent on alcohol to keep me awake for the day. Caffeine makes me tired.

I'm not sure what would be a "strictly scientific view on things." Scientists are regular people with their own agendas and biases, so everybody has a different view. Nevertheless, without religion maybe there would be one less source of prejudice and bias?...

Ideally yes, but I'm not sure if I'd trust most people that far.

Fascinating how made up Western imaginations about non-Western people take off to have a life of their own, isn't it?

Yea that was a pretty bad joke.


Have you ever studied any of Carl Jung's work? That's been one of the areas that has kept me fascinated. I've used the archetypes before, especially in story telling and gaming. I know it's a bit random, but I wanted to hear your thoughts on it.

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Hi All

I understand what you mean there, and you're right over all. I just have one point. Sometimes praying to God/dess(s) or whatever might enable the person/people to take the steps to make the change. I know that sometimes when I'm doing my meditation work, sometimes I'll come up with insights that I didn't before. I don't know if it means there is a Higher Power(s) out there or not.

In other words: some people who feel too weak to stand up to the challenges on their own need a walking cane. It doesn't really matter whether it's a Genuine™ cane, they just need something to lean on: they need something supernatural to blame their falls on, and something supernatural to thank for getting up again.

I am inclined to agree with this. I know plenty of people like that. However, at some point you need to ask yourself, as an intelligent, strong person, do you really need that cane? Isn't it a little bit like, cheating yourself?

As far as meditation and new ideas go - that's because of the relaxation. The best ideas come up when you're not trying too hard. For me it's often my dreams that bring the best solutions.

Also sometimes people miss/don't know things, but this is part of the reason that science has to be self correcting. Ideally religion/spirituality should be the same.

No it can't, because religion/spirituality does not depend on evidence, just on faith. If religion depended on evidence, we would have many more atheists/agnostics than we do.

Good choice. I'm more of a whiskey drinker myself.

I have such a weak head I'd be in the lalala land after a single shot.

I know what you mean there. I'm just not sure if it would be any better if we all had strictly a scientific view on things. I took a multi-cultural psychology class. It was a real struggle trying to come up with solutions that respected everyone, but it made me think.

I'm not sure what would be a "strictly scientific view on things." Scientists are regular people with their own agendas and biases, so everybody has a different view. Nevertheless, without religion maybe there would be one less source of prejudice and bias?...

I'm sure you would. Unfortunately having photos taken is the easiest way to loose one's soul. I hear these new cameras don't even just take parts of your soul, they take your whole soul with just one (and the first!) photograph.

Fascinating how made up Western imaginations about non-Western people take off to have a life of their own, isn't it?

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

I have a question, and I promise it's sincere. It's my understanding that the Bible was God's Word, but given to humans to write down. Is the trust then that humans wrote down His world accurately?


This goes right back to some of my trust issues. It's a sincere question, but one I've never really asked. It's a question that keeps coming up. One of my issues with my former church was the Pastor. I volunteered for a Church cleanup, and while I was cleaning the alter area; the Pastor was smoking (and had his ash tray on the alter) while he was lecturing about respect. I guess to me that seemed really wrong.

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

Maybe I'm being just a bit too idealistic today, but I feel like it's wrong to give up on people. Looking at it your way though, I might be freeing him to get the help he needs.

I am saying the questions aren't elusive but the "courage" to ask them is.

Sometimes the courage is the easy part. Knowing which questions to ask, and sometimes in which order can be tricky.

Perhaps. I think you have grown on me. Not like when you joined and I just thought to myself "Please God smite her now before she types another word" Yap yap yap yap yappity yap

Perhaps you've grown on me some to. Sometimes it's hard to know when to let go of defensive measures (sarcasm), or even to know when not to use them in the first place. It's really hard to know when/who to trust. Admitting that everyone will let you down eventually just takes me down a road that I've been fighting to stay off of for awhile. Sometimes the text and subtext of this group can be a bit complicated to understand. I'll admit I did some research on this group before I came; but of all the somewhat offensive stuff I may have done, bringing that up in full wasn't something I was willing to do. Occasionally even I have standards of etiquette.

It's not for me to save you from anything. If God wants you saved then you will be saved. It's up to you if it's easy or complicated. People run around looking for God in all the wrong places. The worst ones are the ones that take all the bits of religion that sits well with them, then take those bits and create their own happy smiley faced Mr Potatohead God (Mr Potatohead might be well before your time) Basically what I mean by that is they mix and match bits to make an imaginary all loving and beautiful God of rainbows and unicorns (Although I don't think Mr Potatohead specifically had a unicorn, perhaps Mrs Potatohead did)

OK yikes another moment of vulnerability. Yes I know who Mr/Mrs Potatohead are. I was always too afraid of hurting them to actually enjoy them for what they were supposed to represent. I got fully caught up in the how badly it must hurt them to remove and reattach their faces. Yes I was an odd child, and yes I know I'm still probably an odd adult. I'm not sure if admitting that surprises you or not.

[Back against wall]

Re: Hi All

I don't have the ability to get him into institutionalized care. If I did, that issue would be over already. I know he's seeing a counselor (not sure who or in what office), but hides this from the counselor.

Let it go, it isn't your field. Doesn't mean you failed just means you can't help.

The question is, the courage for what?

You said "but you're right sometimes the questions remain a bit elusive."

I am saying the questions aren't elusive but the "courage" to ask them is.

And what hell specifically are you trying to save me from? A hell of my own making or beliefs?

Perhaps. I think you have grown on me. Not like when you joined and I just thought to myself "Please God smite her now before she types another word" Yap yap yap yap yappity yap

It's not for me to save you from anything. If God wants you saved then you will be saved. It's up to you if it's easy or complicated. People run around looking for God in all the wrong places. The worst ones are the ones that take all the bits of religion that sits well with them, then take those bits and create their own happy smiley faced Mr Potatohead God (Mr Potatohead might be well before your time) Basically what I mean by that is they mix and match bits to make an imaginary all loving and beautiful God of rainbows and unicorns (Although I don't think Mr Potatohead specifically had a unicorn, perhaps Mrs Potatohead did)

I'm sorry about your wife.

No biggy.

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

Some people are destined for the pits of Hell. Help will come to others when they prove ready and worthy to receive it. If he isn't taking the meds that I can confidently claim he has been prescribed, then the next step is institutionalized care.

I don't have the ability to get him into institutionalized care. If I did, that issue would be over already. I know he's seeing a counselor (not sure who or in what office), but hides this from the counselor.

The only elusive factor is courage.

The question is, the courage for what?

There are perceptions of God and then there is GOD. You can travel the earth and walk in the shoes of others. Buddhists, Krishna's, Catlics, Mormons blah blah and build your own "Mr Potatohead" God. Or you can pick up a KJV 1611 and meet the one and only True GOD. The word of God isn't debatable, it's isn't even really open to interpretation, it is what it is and is supposed to be, the True Word™ I will say however, that the Bible will speak to you like it doesn't speak to any other, because God is clever and almighty and He knows YOU. He will speak to YOU so that YOU understand. And what you may find difficult to understand can be explained here by the many True Christians™ that want to see you saved.

Why so many trademarked words? And what hell specifically are you trying to save me from? A hell of my own making or beliefs? or the one promised in the Bible?

Young Lady that is probably not the most appropriate suggestion under the circumstances. As you are a married woman and my wife just recently dropped dead as a result of one of my inventions not identifying her correctly, it would not be proper. However I sense that you and Dolores are finding some kind of Solace in conversing with each other. I know for fact that Dolores is enjoying your conversations. I have no doubt that in no time at all you will realize why you are here and find yourself Truly Enlightened™

I'm sorry about your wife. If it helps any, I wasn't trying to make in advances, I'm just looking to understand.