[Didymus Much]

Re: Hi All

This is an invalid argument since we both don´t accept the Bible as truth...

Caught me.

...That couldn't have anything to do with the fact that neither has ever been implemented outside of a totalitarian regime (which tend to not be peaceful and happy places to live, unless you're the one in charge)?...

...Cause and effect...

What?

...While I await your response, I'll sit here quietly and reflect on capitalism's historic focus on the health and well-being of its less advantaged citizens. Oops, I'm already done...

...Somewhat of a straw man argument there?

Yes, but as you offered no alternative, I went with the obvious.

[Roland]

Re: Hi All

Omnipotence dictates responsibility. Even the Bible agrees with me on that.

This is an invalid argument since we both don´t accept the Bible as truth.

That couldn't have anything to do with the fact that neither has ever been implemented outside of a totalitarian regime (which tend to not be peaceful and happy places to live, unless you're the one in charge)?

Cause and effect.

While I await your response, I'll sit here quietly and reflect on capitalism's historic focus on the health and well-being of its less advantaged citizens. Oops, I'm already done.

Is that somewhat of a straw man argument you are making there?

Kind regards, Roland

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

=Dolores de Barriga;1168806]Which is why I wouldn't call them external. Of course we people create our own hell on earth. The thing is, that in every situation of mass injustice you have massive amounts of people who pray to God to solve/end that crisis. Yet, He doesn't. Never. Ever. Not even once. It takes peoples to change the situation.

I understand what you mean there, and you're right over all. I just have one point. Sometimes praying to God/dess(s) or whatever might enable the person/people to take the steps to make the change. I know that sometimes when I'm doing my meditation work, sometimes I'll come up with insights that I didn't before. I don't know if it means there is a Higher Power(s) out there or not.

All kinds of ideas can be twisted. One point of comparison that I see between communism and Christianity is that both ideas look very well in ideal theory, but the practical application always turned out to be bloody and oppressive.

Even scientific ethics can be twisted. It seems like anything no matter how pure can be twisted, if someone really chooses to. Also sometimes people miss/don't know things, but this is part of the reason that science has to be self correcting. Ideally religion/spirituality should be the same.

I dunno, I try not to see the world in terms of sharp binary oppositions. It's usually more complex than that.

Very true. Generally in a face to face conversation I'm normally better at explaining some of this, but you're very right that the world is made up of shades of grey.

I'll take a glass of Moscato.

Good choice. I'm more of a whiskey drinker myself.

While I cannot relate to your particular situation, I understand your struggle.

Thank you and that's really all any of us can ask for.

Sure. The problem is the definition of a "better place" - most religious people will say that world would be a better place if everybody followed their religion, which they see as the only true religion. That sort of well-wishing thinking led to the destruction of thousands of languages and cultures by leading world religions, and it continues to this day through the work of missionaries in Central/South America, Africa, and other places. As an anthropologist, I see that "loving destruction" as even more dangerous and cruel than other forms of oppression.

I know what you mean there. I'm just not sure if it would be any better if we all had strictly a scientific view on things. I took a multi-cultural psychology class. It was a real struggle trying to come up with solutions that respected everyone, but it made me think.

[Didymus Much]

Re: Hi All

I am pretty sure God had little to do with communism and (national) socialism...

Omnipotence dictates responsibility. Even the Bible agrees with me on that.

...Those two ideologies were responsible for a lot of hardship and deaths. Just for the record.

That couldn't have anything to do with the fact that neither has ever been implemented outside of a totalitarian regime (which tend to not be peaceful and happy places to live, unless you're the one in charge)?

While I await your response, I'll sit here quietly and reflect on capitalism's historic focus on the health and well-being of its less advantaged citizens. Oops, I'm already done.

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Hi All

You might have a point there, I can sometimes take a really dim view on humanity. The problem there is that it also that even those external forces were created by humanity.

Which is why I wouldn't call them external. Of course we people create our own hell on earth. The thing is, that in every situation of mass injustice you have massive amounts of people who pray to God to solve/end that crisis. Yet, He doesn't. Never. Ever. Not even once. It takes peoples to change the situation.

That could mean two things: 1) God doesn't care at all, 2) He doesn't exist. In both cases, why bother praying and worshiping?

I agree with you that religion is not necessary for ethics to exist. My point was that ideas can be twisted.

All kinds of ideas can be twisted. One point of comparison that I see between communism and Christianity is that both ideas look very well in ideal theory, but the practical application always turned out to be bloody and oppressive.

Yea I can understand where you're coming from on that. There still has to be one for us to try to understand the other. Take light (day) and dark (night) as an example. Could we truly understand one without the presence of the other?

I dunno, I try not to see the world in terms of sharp binary oppositions. It's usually more complex than that.

YAYS!!! I have a drinking buddy

I'll take a glass of Moscato.

No I don't. I put that in there as example of something that science wasn't able to explain at this point. The nice thing about that example was that I at least had some sort of hard data to back it up. I'm not Christian. Believe me a lot of the stuff brought up here was stuff I questioned the Pastor about before I left the Church.

While I cannot relate to your particular situation, I understand your struggle.

If we are, I'm fine with that. I will die content with the knowledge that I did my best to try to make this world a better place. In my opinion the presence (or absence) of religion/spirituality, does not free someone of the responsibility to make the world a better place.

Sure. The problem is the definition of a "better place" - most religious people will say that world would be a better place if everybody followed their religion, which they see as the only true religion. That sort of well-wishing thinking led to the destruction of thousands of languages and cultures by leading world religions, and it continues to this day through the work of missionaries in Central/South America, Africa, and other places. As an anthropologist, I see that "loving destruction" as even more dangerous and cruel than other forms of oppression.

[Roland]

Re: Hi All

God forbid we have the chance to find out.

I am pretty sure God had little to do with communism and (national) socialism. Those two ideologies were responsible for a lot of hardship and deaths. Just for the record.

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

Then why did you say that there was a balance? Maybe you just want there to be a balance, but looking at human history, I just don't see it.

Also beliefs in a balance doesn't negate my responsibility to work towards that. Sort of the whole be the change that you want to see perspective

[Didymus Much]

Re: Hi All

...In a world without religion, we would probably just find something else to kill ourselves over...

God forbid we have the chance to find out.

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

Dolores de Barriga;1168797]I dunno. Quite a lot of what we do to ourselves (wars, slavery, genocide, social and gender inequalities)...

You might have a point there, I can sometimes take a really dim view on humanity. The problem there is that it also that even those external forces were created by humanity.

I don't think I understand. Are you trying to suggest that religion is somehow necessary for ethics to exist? If this is your position, then I don't agree: it's the ethics of a society that influence religion, not vice versa. If not, then please clarify.

I agree with you that religion is not necessary for ethics to exist. My point was that ideas can be twisted.

Then why did you say that there was a balance? Maybe you just want there to be a balance, but looking at human history, I just don't see it.

Yea I can understand where you're coming from on that. There still has to be one for us to try to understand the other. Take light (day) and dark (night) as an example. Could we truly understand one without the presence of the other?

Good point, I can drink to that!

YAYS!!! I have a drinking buddy

You think that God healed you hand just to see you suffer? That's sort of sick, but I guess it actually fits well with the character of God of the Bible.

No I don't. I put that in there as example of something that science wasn't able to explain at this point. The nice thing about that example was that I at least had some sort of hard data to back it up. I'm not Christian. Believe me a lot of the stuff brought up here was stuff I questioned the Pastor about before I left the Church.

I have touched on that before, but the main difference between science and religion is that the former is not interested in Absolute Truth. Hence, sciences, including social science, have the ability to see through and correct own errors and biases. On the Origin of Species is not treated as The Truth, its contents have been subjected to scientific scrutiny and modifications over time.

Very true.

But what if there is no truth to be found? What if we are just an effect of some random mutations on an insignificant planet in a peripheral solar system of a small galaxy that nobody cares about?

If we are, I'm fine with that. I will die content with the knowledge that I did my best to try to make this world a better place. In my opinion the presence (or absence) of religion/spirituality, does not free someone of the responsibility to make the world a better place. I also believe that we need to do this without expectation of some sort of reward. A good action taken with expectation of a reward becomes selfish at best.


I enjoyed talking to you.

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Hi All

Unfortunately humanity by nature is pretty rotten.

I dunno. Quite a lot of what we do to ourselves (wars, slavery, genocide, social and gender inequalities) is not so much a part of human nature but the result of population growth and sedentism caused by the advent of agriculture.

Sometimes all you can do is hope that a more tolerant message has reached enough people, even if likely it won't help. In some ways that not that much different than pushing science ethics. There are some applications to scientific discoveries that have the potential to be just as harmful as they are helpful.

I don't think I understand. Are you trying to suggest that religion is somehow necessary for ethics to exist? If this is your position, then I don't agree: it's the ethics of a society that influence religion, not vice versa. If not, then please clarify.

I volunteer doing online PTSD and crisis support. Between that, some of the other volunteer work I do, and my own history; I'm aware that there is a lot of cruelty and injustice out there. I know there is a lot more than needs to be done, but I try to make things better where I can.

Then why did you say that there was a balance? Maybe you just want there to be a balance, but looking at human history, I just don't see it.

In a world without religion, we would probably just find something else to kill ourselves over.

Good point, I can drink to that!

When I was born, my left shoulder got dislocated in the process. That stunted the growth of that arm. After the surgeries to attempt to fix the issue, I had quite a bit of nerve destruction. The Docs, of course and reasonably so, said that would be permanent. What none of us were expecting was the nerve regrowth. At my last nerve conduction test, my nerve sensitivity was quite a bit above normal (body wide). I'm not trying to claim that it was absolutely of a Divine origin (in one sort or another). I simply don't know. Am I thankful for it? I can only say that it is quite a bit of a mixed blessing. I'm thankful to not have numb areas, but the nerve sensitivity itself is quite painful. I only bring this up because it's measurable (through the nerve conduction tests) and no one was fully able to explain it.

You think that God healed you hand just to see you suffer? That's sort of sick, but I guess it actually fits well with the character of God of the Bible.

True enough, but it also speaks a great deal about the power of perception. Our perceptions on reality are filtered through our experience.

In some ways it's not that much different than some of the scientific disciplines. Psychology and Sociology are great examples of this.

I have touched on that before, but the main difference between science and religion is that the former is not interested in Absolute Truth. Hence, sciences, including social science, have the ability to see through and correct own errors and biases. On the Origin of Species is not treated as The Truth, its contents have been subjected to scientific scrutiny and modifications over time.

Human understanding. Studying religion/spirituality gives great insight into the culture that birthed it. Even the more cobbled together individualistic faiths give some pretty decent insight into an individual or smaller groups. And yes there still is the trying to find some part of a truth.

But what if there is no truth to be found? What if we are just an effect of some random mutations on an insignificant planet in a peripheral solar system of a small galaxy that nobody cares about?

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

Based on the history of religions, there is a strong correlation with power. Christianity was a nice and fluffy religion until it became the state religion of Rome under Constantine - since that moment forward it was all about eradicating heretics and heathens, with steel and fire.

Unfortunately humanity by nature is pretty rotten. Sometimes all you can do is hope that a more tolerant message has reached enough people, even if likely it won't help. In some ways that not that much different than pushing science ethics. There are some applications to scientific discoveries that have the potential to be just as harmful as they are helpful.

Here is a link to an article which does quite a good job at showing flaws and advantages of both materialist and idealist approaches, regarding Hindus and their cows:

Thank you for the article. I've seen similar in some of the Anthropology classes that I've taken. I enjoyed reading it though.

My point is, there is no balance. There is much more cruelty and injustice in the world than the good things. You could try to change it, maybe tilting towards that balance you have imagined, by volunteering at a local homeless shelter. You might just learn something. That's easy to say for a person who has things to appreciate.

I volunteer doing online PTSD and crisis support. Between that, some of the other volunteer work I do, and my own history; I'm aware that there is a lot of cruelty and injustice out there. I know there is a lot more than needs to be done, but I try to make things better where I can.

That is a very reasonable position to have. Unless you accept the Holy Bible or some other sacred text as evidence, we have no proof whatsoever that a supreme being exists. And if it does, the next question is is it worthy of our worship? Why should we worship a God who created so much suffering?

Most times (granted with exceptions) it's been humanity that has created the suffering. If we would have chosen to put the time/money/effort into bettering ourselves that we put into finding ways of destroying ourselves; we would be a whole lot better off. I don't know if we would be better off with or without religion/spirituality. In a world without religion, we would probably just find something else to kill ourselves over.


When I was born, my left shoulder got dislocated in the process. That stunted the growth of that arm. After the surgeries to attempt to fix the issue, I had quite a bit of nerve destruction. The Docs, of course and reasonably so, said that would be permanent. What none of us were expecting was the nerve regrowth. At my last nerve conduction test, my nerve sensitivity was quite a bit above normal (body wide). I'm not trying to claim that it was absolutely of a Divine origin (in one sort or another). I simply don't know. Am I thankful for it? I can only say that it is quite a bit of a mixed blessing. I'm thankful to not have numb areas, but the nerve sensitivity itself is quite painful. I only bring this up because it's measurable (through the nerve conduction tests) and no one was fully able to explain it.

That's a nice anecdote. Here is an example from real life. Students at Harvard University were asked what the capital of Canada was. Only one student gave the correct answer, and she was Canadian. Does that mean that the capital of Canada is partially Vancouver, partially Toronto, and just a tiny bit Ottawa? No it doesn't. It simply means that most people are ignorant and only few know some actual facts.

True enough, but it also speaks a great deal about the power of perception. Our perceptions on reality are filtered through our experience.

The problem is that each religion gives you completely different answers, which are contradictory not just between religions but also within religions. Do we have each one soul? Three souls? Seven souls? Nine souls? Do some or all of our souls die when the body decomposes? Do some or all of our souls retain individuality after death, or do they morph into nameless ancestors? Is there some sort of a punishment/reward system or is the afterlife completely boring? Does a soul live only once or is it reborn multiple times?

In some ways it's not that much different than some of the scientific disciplines. Psychology and Sociology are great examples of this.

Why do you even want to hear any of these answers that religion can give you? You could make up even better answers, but that wouldn't make them more true, either!

Human understanding. Studying religion/spirituality gives great insight into the culture that birthed it. Even the more cobbled together individualistic faiths give some pretty decent insight into an individual or smaller groups. And yes there still is the trying to find some part of a truth.

I do apologize for the delay. Busy week. Please do try to use the [ quote] [/ quote] commands (without spaces). You can see how it looks in the preview window before posting.

It's fine, I hope everything is going smoothly and well. I enjoy talking to you.

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Hi All

I have thought of that as well. The nice thing about those two is that they push a person into really looking at things. As for how long they will stay that way, I don't know.

Based on the history of religions, there is a strong correlation with power. Christianity was a nice and fluffy religion until it became the state religion of Rome under Constantine - since that moment forward it was all about eradicating heretics and heathens, with steel and fire.

I agree with you there. I cringe every time I hear a group use that line, especially since everyone uses it.

You shouldn't. Marxism has many useful applications as a model of explaining things in societies. The one thing that needs to be remembered when using any model, though, is that a model to reality is like a map to a territory - it is always a simplified and partial image of reality.

Here is a link to an article which does quite a good job at showing flaws and advantages of both materialist and idealist approaches, regarding Hindus and their cows:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/2740913?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

I believe that everything has to exist in a balance. Light/Dark, Good/Evil, Female/Male, and etc.

It is very easy to talk about balance of good and evil when you live in your heated and air conditioned house or apartment, with a full fridge and food just a call away, in a first world country. If you were living a life not knowing if you will have food, shelter, your life, or the power over your life the next day, the things wouldn't look as balanced.

My point is, there is no balance. There is much more cruelty and injustice in the world than the good things.

You could try to change it, maybe tilting towards that balance you have imagined, by volunteering at a local homeless shelter. You might just learn something.

The balance helps us appreciate what we do have, and shows us what we need to do to improve.

That's easy to say for a person who has things to appreciate.

As to what type of God/dess(s) exist, if they do exist, I don't know.

That is a very reasonable position to have. Unless you accept the Holy Bible or some other sacred text as evidence, we have no proof whatsoever that a supreme being exists. And if it does, the next question is is it worthy of our worship? Why should we worship a God who created so much suffering?

True enough, but science and spirituality give to very different ways of looking at something. It's sort of like that one quote on truth (I'm sorry, I can't cite this one), you can ask 100 people a question. All of their answers will have aspects of the truth, and the actual truth is someplace lost in the middle.

That's a nice anecdote. Here is an example from real life. Students at Harvard University were asked what the capital of Canada was. Only one student gave the correct answer, and she was Canadian. Does that mean that the capital of Canada is partially Vancouver, partially Toronto, and just a tiny bit Ottawa? No it doesn't. It simply means that most people are ignorant and only few know some actual facts.

Also, science doesn't seek the "truth." That's kinda one of the major differences between science and religion.

Science gives a much needed explanation of the how's, why's, and etc in the world, but it doesn't do a real good job at describing the human heart (or soul). Religion/Spirituality answers some questions but leaves a lot of others unanswered.

The problem is that each religion gives you completely different answers, which are contradictory not just between religions but also within religions. Do we have each one soul? Three souls? Seven souls? Nine souls? Do some or all of our souls die when the body decomposes? Do some or all of our souls retain individuality after death, or do they morph into nameless ancestors? Is there some sort of a punishment/reward system or is the afterlife completely boring? Does a soul live only once or is it reborn multiple times?

Why do you even want to hear any of these answers that religion can give you? You could make up even better answers, but that wouldn't make them more true, either!

I look forward to hearing back from you. Have a great day.

I do apologize for the delay. Busy week. Please do try to use the [ quote] [/ quote] commands (without spaces). You can see how it looks in the preview window before posting.

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

Praise Jesus, Solace:

I hope your child's name is Quantum. Just for fun.

May I offer this somewhat belated welcome to God's Favorite Forums? I am sure you've already experienced the warmth of everyone and I am also certain that you are beginning to feel as if you've embarked on a journey home - to JESUS.

No doubt this sojourn was difficult to undertake considering the curse that was placed on your husbandman due to his or his relatives' sin. Did you ever figure out what that sin was? I am wondering if there is Onanism in his past. Often, when we spill seed upon the ground, the LORD GOD is so outraged that His first reaction is to just disable the perpetrator. I would imagine you know that you never should consider sacrificing your husband to the Most High:

Deuteronomy 15:21

And if there be any blemish therein; as if it be lame, or blinde, or haue any ill blemish, thou shalt not sacrifice it vnto the Lord thy God.

As tempting as it might be to just throw him on the barbecue some evening when the lights are low and neighbors aren't looking, we have been commanded not to sacrifice those kinds of things to the LORD. I am sure He will give you grace to withstand these infirmities, bless His Name.

I have added you to my prayer list and claim in the holy NAME of JESUS that the DEVIL releases you from His vile grasp. If you'll kneel before our LORD, He will give you the gift of Salvation® and while you will never be as important to God as we men are, you WILL be considered one of His children. With proper tithing habits, you might even find yourself with a fighting chance at seeing Heaven.

Oh, how Good is my GOD!

COME, LORD JESUS!
BrotherLarry

Hi. Are you a James Bond fan? No we didn't name our son Quantum, although that would have been an interesting name to work with. We named him after my dad and my husbands uncle. No we never figured out what the sin was, and to some degree I'm not really sure that it matters. Our marriage vows included the 'in sickness and in health'.


You know it never even occurred to me to be tempted to throw him into the barbeque pit. I must have slept through that particular lesson on temptation.


I appreciate your prayers. If I go by the reactions of some of the wacko's I've seen in real life and spoken to on facebook, I'm probably not nearly as lost as I might seem. Seriously. I was at Wal-Mart the one day, and saw this person. The person came up to me (with completely black eyes) and told me that she was satan and then repeated the statement. I looked at her and told her that I was her worst nightmare and she fled in tears.

[BrotherLarry]

Re: Hi All

Praise Jesus, Solace:

I hope your child's name is Quantum. Just for fun.

May I offer this somewhat belated welcome to God's Favorite Forums? I am sure you've already experienced the warmth of everyone and I am also certain that you are beginning to feel as if you've embarked on a journey home - to JESUS.

No doubt this sojourn was difficult to undertake considering the curse that was placed on your husbandman due to his or his relatives' sin. Did you ever figure out what that sin was? I am wondering if there is Onanism in his past. Often, when we spill seed upon the ground, the LORD GOD is so outraged that His first reaction is to just disable the perpetrator. I would imagine you know that you never should consider sacrificing your husband to the Most High:

Deuteronomy 15:21

And if there be any blemish therein; as if it be lame, or blinde, or haue any ill blemish, thou shalt not sacrifice it vnto the Lord thy God.

As tempting as it might be to just throw him on the barbecue some evening when the lights are low and neighbors aren't looking, we have been commanded not to sacrifice those kinds of things to the LORD. I am sure He will give you grace to withstand these infirmities, bless His Name.

I have added you to my prayer list and claim in the holy NAME of JESUS that the DEVIL releases you from His vile grasp. If you'll kneel before our LORD, He will give you the gift of Salvation(r) and while you will never be as important to God as we men are, you WILL be considered one of His children. With proper tithing habits, you might even find yourself with a fighting chance at seeing Heaven.

Oh, how Good is my GOD!

COME, LORD JESUS!
BrotherLarry

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

I think this is a good question. Guns are nice and everyone should own at least a few. What guns do you have Locus?

We have 2 hunting rifles.