[Johny Joe Hold]

Re: Please help with contradictions in the Christmas story

I read an atheist claim the other day that Mary might not have been a virgin like the Bible tells us. Atheists should ask for forgiveness after making such a ridiculous claim.

Their argument goes like this. Everyday, somewhere in the world, a young girl tells her mother, "I've missed two periods. But I know I'm not pregnant because I haven't had sex with anyone." Because these girls are lying, atheists conclude Mary, also, was lying.

Atheists have not done their homework. First, we have Mary's testimony she was a virgin. Second, we have God telling us in the Bible she was impregnated by the Holy Spirit without traditional sex. That settles the matter.

Atheist writing like that below making the claim against Mary's virginity must be challenged.

Verifying the Virgin Birth | Jonathan MS Pearce (patheos.com)

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Please help with contradictions in the Christmas story

I was trying to explain that the message of a good story is not in history but in the fact that it is relating to us and giving us inspired awe and good will.

Your problem there, and in your other questions, is that history is incomplete whereas The Bible is not.

For example history did not know where King Richard III was buried. Now we know he was buried in a carpark in Leicester, an English city. A gap in history has been filled in. Other gaps will also be filled in as details come to light and just because the historical record is incomplete does not mean a detail recorded in The Bible is wrong.

[Dennis Lukes]

Re: Please help with contradictions in the Christmas story

Other gaps will also be filled in as details come to light and just because the historical record is incomplete does not mean a detail recorded in The Bible is wrong.

For example, Matthew 1:2-16 provides the lineage of Abraham to Joseph. Do we have historical evidence that ANY of these people existed? No. If the Bible contradicts history (as with science), then it is the fault of history, not the Bible.

[Johny Joe Hold]

Re: Please help with contradictions in the Christmas story

Your problem there, and in your other questions, is that history is incomplete whereas The Bible is not.
Other gaps will also be filled in as details come to light and just because the historical record is incomplete does not mean a detail recorded in The Bible is wrong.

Well said, Sister Mitza. An example of the Bible proven to be correct are the chariot wheels found where Moses parted the waters of the Red Sea. The Bible accurately tells us Egypt's army was swamped by the seas after Moses parted the waters. A Christian spotted decorated chariot wheels right at that spot. The wheels were seen in the 1970's but scholars and have busy and have not pulled them out to date them. When they do you can bet they will be the ones of warriors chasing Moses and died because God saved Moses, the large group of animals they would need to sustain themselves and the women and children.

Were Chariot Wheels Found at the Bottom of the Red Sea? | Snopes.com

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Please help with contradictions in the Christmas story

Jonah 3:5-8 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.

For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.

And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.

Bible deniers for centuries scoffed at this "obvious fabrication" pointing out that Assyria was no-such-place or that Syria (if that's what was intended) was anachronistic or that Nineveh was a mythical citadel like Shangri-La or Plato's Atlantis. “Ho hum,” they yawned. “Let me know if you can be bothered wasting your time looking for it.” Well it doesn't take long for an insane Englishman to turn up——as I'm sure OP will attest——and sure enough we have a real good specimen for the next graphic.

Since classical times, writers have speculated about the fall of Assyria. Greek and Roman sources talk of the extravagant suicide of its last king Sardanapalus (believed by some to be Ashurbanipal), surrounded by his gold and his concubines. The Old Testament recounts the city’s annihilation by divine wrath and, from the Middle Ages, interest in biblical evidence motivated travellers and geographers to try and locate the city.

. . .

Excavations began in 1842 when the French consul, Paul Émile Botta, commissioned by the Louvre museum, began digging at the site of Khorsabad, where he discovered a city built by the Assyrian king Sargon II. The excavation findings were published under the title Monuments of Nineveh, as Botta wrongly believed that he had found the famed ancient city.

These discoveries captured the attention of Austen Henry Layard [LEFT] a young British explorer who worked as assistant to the British ambassador in Constantinople. Layard persuaded the ambassador to personally fund excavations at the site of Nimrud. From 1845 Layard, with the invaluable help of Hormuzd Rassam, an archaeologist from Mosul, and his team began excavations at Nimrud. They soon unearthed monumental winged bulls and lions that used to flank the gates of an Assyrian palace.

Excited by these finds, the British government, through the British Museum, took over as sponsor and in 1847 Layard moved to the mound of Kuyunjik, across the river Tigris in front of Mosul. It was there that he finally unearthed the fabled city of Nineveh.

I often wonder why if the Romans were so interested in Sardanapalus a.k.a. Ashurbanipal and his numerous concubines (speculative artwork is available in the link) they didn't go and have a look for themselves? Assyria may have been mounds in 1842 but surely there'd be a bit more to see in Julius Caesar's time, and he wasn't averse to travel. Or one of his cronies. Perhaps they had too many concubines themselves.

Raising the tone at this joyous time of year, and following up the original post with a more thorough example, clearly someone saying a place is no place does not refute The Bible. As we remember Christ's birth, is it too much to hope that Miss Shah will accept His gift and join us in The World To Come? How wonderful it would be to celebrate with her there.

https://blog.britishmuseum.org/spark...eat-lost-city/

[Petey_Peterson]

Re: Please help with contradictions in the Christmas story

I am not even sure there aren't just a whole bunch of different "Mary's", cause I'm pretty sure the Catholic one isn't the same 'Mary' as the one in my Bible.


Perhaps the contradictions you refer to are the ones in the Catholic Bible? Since there are NO CONTRADICTIONS in the REAL Bible.

Yes! Merry Christmas everybody!

It is Harsha Shah here. I am sorry that I have not been around very much but I have been very busy. Now it is school holidays here is Scotland and I am doing some Christmas preparations and having more time to write. Yes. We are having a vegetarian Christmas dinner with some friends although we do not share the christian faith in my family.

This autumn I have been teaching my class but also RME that is religious and moral education to some older children, and we were going through the Christmas story early this week. I have been studying it at the University in detail. It comes from the gospels of Matthew and Luke. It is a compilation. We were also reading the lyrics of some carols. Yes. Some of the children are taking French (others take Gaelic) and they find "Away in a manger" a bit funny because of that. Yes.

I hope I am not offending you but one of the children, a girl, came very well prepared and she opposed everything. I am hoping you will be able to help me. She was referring to the contradictions between the two stories and historical records and there was quite a fight between the children.

The date? Where does December 25 come from? Does it come from Mithraism? Is it only tradition of the Catholic Church as I have not been finding any other explanations? Yes?

The year? The Romans were keeping records and Herod died 4 BC. The census of Quirinius in the Luke could not have been taking place before 6 AD. There are no records of a census with illiterate people finding out their genealogy and going to the hometown of distant ancestors. The Romans were effective and this would have been very ineffective (the girl's words, yes). Herod and Quirinius were not simultaneous. I could not answer this one expect by saying that the girl is right and Matthew or Luke or both have been making mistakes. Yes?

The massacre of the innocents? Why were the Romans not reporting it? I answered that the records of that period are not necessarily reliable but unfortunately the girl said "my point exactly".

Where did Jesus go from Bethlehem? Luke is writing that the family went to Nazareth but Matthew is saying they fled to Egypt. Yes. My answer was the same as above, yes it was.

The star? If this is a miracle it does not need explanations but if it was a comet or something the year is off. The girl was also asking why the mages needed a star to guide them from Jerusalem to Bethlehem as it is only 8 kilometres. She was being a bit sassy by this point and I hope I am not offending you with this story. Were they blind she asked.

Matthew is telling that Herod knew that Jesus was born but all the people of his court had forgotten this by the time Jesus was an adult. Yes. Is this reasonable? I was able to answer this one as kings and important people meet many strangers and hear many stories and cannot remember all of them. Yes. I once waved my hand at Prince Charles but I am thinking that he probably does not remember the incident. OK the girl said.

At this point it was about the virgin birth and I had to close the discussion as the boys were starting to make lewd comments about the virgin birth and about the shepherds and sheep. Yes. One more point: the girl said that sheep were not outside at night during wintertime in ancient Israel. This one is about the date.

I was trying to explain that the message of a good story is not in history but in the fact that it is relating to us and giving us inspired awe and good will. The children mostly wanted to know how many presents they were getting. I am thinking that I did not do a very good job. Yes. I have been receiving some angry phone calls and e-mails from Christian parents last night. I am asking you why the stories are contradictory and not supported by history. I am thinking that my answer of them relating to us to make us better is still a good one. Yes?

I am hoping you all have a wonderful Christmas and that your wishes come true. Yes.