Proving that The Bible is not the word of God.

[Ahmad_Deedat]

I will as the title indicates try to prove to you that the Bible can not be the word of God. Though I expect flaming, namedropping and childish behavior, I kindly ask the more intelligent people on this forum to thoroughly read and reflect on the points I am about to present.


Luke and Matthew both give us lists of Jesus´s fathers and grandfathers. Incredible since Jesus´s father supposedly is God.

Luke tells us from 3:23–38 that Jesus had 76 fathers and grandfathers.
Matthew tells us from 1:1–17 that Jesus had 40 fathers and grandfathers. And Amazingly the only name common to the two lists is Joseph who is not really supposed to be there..
Furthermore Matthew tells us in 1:16 that Jesus´s grandfather was Jacob. Luke tells us in 3:23 that Jesus´s grandfather was Heli..
A very clear contradiction There are six such contradictions in the genealogy alone. Look them up yourselves..

Now, onto something else. Take a look at these verses..
Mattew 27:52 - And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
27:53 - And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The dead rose and marched down the streets of Jerusalem. Skeletons walking about. Then what happened next? Nothing apparently, that´s it. And wouldn´t people see? of hear?? What happened to them? Out of the 27 books of the New Testament only Matthew recorded it. Nobody else saw it or heard about it.
And what happened to the undead saints ? Where did they go? We won´t know because it´s another unfinished story. Half told.

Let´s go on..

In Judges 3:31 it says - And after him was Shamgar the son of Anath, which slew of the Philistines six hundred men with an ox goad: and he also delivered Israel.

A goad is a cattle prodder or basicly a stick with a little nail at the end. Incredible. With this stick a Jewish lad killed 600 palestinians? What were the palestinians doing? They couldn´t flee and run for their life? Where they standing in line waiting for Shamgar to poke them to death with his stick? And where did he strike them to kill 600?15:16
The story is just about as stupid as the story of Samson in Judges 15:15 - And he found a new jawbone of an ass, and put forth his hand, and took it, and slew a thousand men therewith.
He kills 1000 men with the jawbone of a Donkey. Again, what where the palestinians doing ? Waiting to be killed with a jawbone ? Silly.
I like 15:16 - And Samson said, With the jawbone of an ass, heaps upon heaps, with the jaw of an ass have I slain a thousand men. Hooray..

In Judges 15:4 the same Samson with the magical powers - And Samson went and caught three hundred foxes, and took firebrands, and turned tail to tail, and put a firebrand in the midst between two tails.

How on earth did the catch 300 foxes and tie them tail to tail ?? Try to catch a chicken or a goat. That´s an ordeal. Not very easy.
First of all, where did he find 300 foxes? He then tied them two-two by the tails. He made 150 pairs. And the foxes apparently cooperated. Try tying the tails of two small pooddles and see what they´ll do to you..
But Samson did it and even put fire between their tails and sent them on to the fields of the palestinians. And the foxes cooperated all along.. Nice..


Now I´d like to address the matter of many people saying that The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) copied up to 75% of the Bible to put in the Quran.

So I ask myself. What is worth copying? Let´s have a look.

There are in the bible 10 cases of incest. Describing the various ways one can commit it. Amazing. Out of the 10 cases of incest Muhammad did not copy a single one.. Look mainly in Genesis and Deuteronomy..
The Bible is a textbook on incest. Wan´t to know how to commit it. Look it up in the Bible..

In Judges 16:1 - Then went Samson to Gaza, and saw there an harlot, and went in unto her.
What does this teach you? Samson goes to Gaza, sees a whore and goes to bed with her.. There is not a single judging word for what Samson did.. Nothing! God didn´t give him Aids or Gonorrhea or anything to punish him? No.

Now have a look at these verses..

Isaiah 7:20 - In the same day shall the Lord shave with a rasor that is hired, [namely], by them beyond the river, by the king of Assyria, the head, and the hair of the feet: and it shall also consume the beard.

What is this? God almighty is gonna shave peoples hair and feet??

2 Samuel 22:9 - There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

Is God smoking a cigarette? And where did people who blow smoke out through their noses when they smoke get the idea from? The Bible! And fire out of his mouth. Like a dragon. The guy who invented flamethrowers may have gotten the idea from reading the Bible..

This is my favorite..
2 Samuel 22:11 - And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.
God Almighty is riding a cherub



which is a little angle girl. God Almighty riding a little girl and flying. And you think God said this? I am actually insulted by this. Mockery... The mighty God riding little girls?? Come on!! Shame on you..

Then we have this.. in Numbers.

Numbers 31:17 - Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18 - But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Good instructions for the Jewish soldier going to war. How does he know if a little palestinian girl has experienced sex or not? Only one way. To rape her.. So after verifying he kills her if she was not a virgin and keep her alive if she was.. And in Numbers 31:35 - And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.. So after raping the palestinian women they saved for themselves 32.000 girls.. And in Numbers 31:40 - And the persons [were] sixteen thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute [was] thirty and two persons. God want´s his pound of flesh. His share.. Why does God need 32 raped palestinian girls ??? Do you really believe this to be God´s words?? Kill all men, women and children. Except the virgins of course..?
This is nothing but Jewish folklore.

Let´s move on to more contradictions..

In John 18:9 Jesus says - That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

In John 17:12 the same Jesus says - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

In chapter 18 he said he lost none and in chapter 17 he said he lost one. So which is it? One or none ? Stupendous difference.. Another contradiction. I find it odd, though ingenious, that in the KJV´s 5th major revision version the words of Jesus are in red. And his words in 18:9 are in red. In the KJV´s 6th major revision version his words in 18:9 are no longer in red. A neat trick to conceal a contradiction ??

In Exodus Moses want´s to see God. But God says No! Exodus 33:20 - And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.. So in Exodus 33:23 - And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. Moses is allowed only to see God´s back.
But in Exodus 33:11 - And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle. As a man speaks to his friend. Not showing his back.
And in Genesis 32:30 - And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. Jacob was allowed to see the face of God?
Why these contradictions if this is the word of God?

Finally. In the Bible we are told that God created the Heaven and the Earth in six days. Exodus 31:17 - It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. He rested on the seventh and was refreshed. Meaning that after six days of hard labor God needed to rest.

The Holy Quran tells us in 50:38 - We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in Six Days, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us.
Pick your choice! The God that tires or the God that feels no fatigue.. The God of the Bible who needs rest or Allah who did not tire after creating everything..

Last one I promise.. In Mark 10:27 - And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men [it is] impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. Nothing is impossible for God. But in Judges 1:19 - And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out [the inhabitants of] the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. Here we learn that Judah and God drove out the people in the mountains but could not drive out the people of the lowlands.. Because they had chariots? They had "tanks" so God Almighty could not prevail.?
The Quran says in 85:16 that God is the - Doer of whatever He wills.
You pick what God to worship..

That was all for now.

The challenge is up!!

[Sister Charli]

Re: Proving that The Bible is not the word of God.

God Almighty is riding a cherub



which is a little angle girl.

Oh Sweet Jesus,

that statue is naked. And it sure as heck is not a little girl.

Having changed Disciple Luke's 8 month old son's nappy a fair few numbers of times now, I do know this to be true.

Please remove this pornography before Felicity or Annie see it.

Why do you come to a True Christian™ forum and spam it with nudity and other vile stuff?

[HTannor]

Re: Proving that The Bible is not the word of God.

TL/DR


As if I really care about this heresy.

[James Dewitt]

Re: Proving that The Bible is not the word of God.

@ Ahmad I hope this clears things up for you.

2nd Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Habakkuk 2:2 And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.

Jeremiah 36:2 Take thee a roll of a book, and write therein all the words that I have spoken unto thee against Israel, and against Judah, and against all the nations, from the day I spake unto thee, from the days of Josiah, even unto this day.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.


Now how can you not believe that the KJV1611 is not the word of God? Are you going to follow a bunch of crap
that was dreamed up by an hallucinating camel jockey named Mudhammer or God?

[Lisa H]

Re: Proving that The Bible is not the word of God.

Ahmad how disappointing it is seeing you come here to mock God and Jesus.

We know you have been deceived by your false prophet Mohammad, but it is time you learned the truth.

Mohammad lied to you about Christians.

Here he says it Christians who believe in God (Allah) they are rewarded

Quran: 2:62. Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

Now he tells you God (Allah) will destroy Christians

Quran: 9:30. And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

Here he is telling you hate Christians

Quran 5:15. And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a covenant, but they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, therefore We excited among them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection; and Allah will inform them of what they did.

Here is telling you not to make friends with Christians

Quran 5:54. O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

So what is Ahmad.
1. Are we true believers and reward in Heaven.
or
2. You hate us, you will never befriend us, and Allah will destroy us.

[Meek and Humble]

Re: Proving that The Bible is not the word of God.

Your hatred of the Bible is quite odd considering what the Quran says about the Bible.

3:3 He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

5:46 And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).

(The Bible came from Jesus, and is guidance and light)

5:68 Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.

(The Bible is God's revelation)

10:37 And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be invented in despite of Allah; but it is a confirmation of that which was before it and an exposition of that which is decreed for mankind - Therein is no doubt - from the Lord of the Worlds.

(The Quran explains the Bible)

34:31 And those who disbelieve say: We believe not in this Qur'an nor in that which was before it; but oh, if thou couldst see, when the wrong-doers are brought up before their Lord, how they cast the blame one to another; how those who were despised (in the earth) say unto those who were proud: But for you, we should have been believers.

(Unbelievers refused to believe in the Bible)

2:91 And when it is said unto them: Believe in that which Allah hath revealed, they say: We believe in that which was revealed unto us. And they disbelieve in that which cometh after it, though it is the truth confirming that which they possess. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Why then slew ye the prophets of Allah aforetime, if ye are (indeed) believers ?

(The Quran confirms the Bible)

40:70 Those who deny the Scripture and that wherewith We send Our messengers. But they will come to know,

(People will be judged for rejecting the Bible)

4:162 But those of them who are firm in knowledge and the believers believe in that which is revealed unto thee, and that which was revealed before thee, especially the diligent in prayer and those who pay the poor-due, the believers in Allah and the Last Day. Upon these We shall bestow immense reward.

(Those grounded in knowledge believe in the Bible)

9:111 Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah ? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.

(God's promises are in the Bible)

5:47 Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.

(We are judged by the Bible)

5:66 If they had observed the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto them from their Lord, they would surely have been nourished from above them and from beneath their feet. Among them there are people who are moderate, but many of them are of evil conduct.

5:68 Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.

(Christians are supposed to observe the Bible)

3:84 Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

4:136 O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His messenger and the Scripture which He hath revealed unto His messenger, and the Scripture which He revealed aforetime. Whoso disbelieveth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers and the Last Day, he verily hath wandered far astray.

(Muslims should believe in the Bible)

10:94 And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.

(Refer to the Bible when in doubt)

2:62 Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

(Christians need not fear judgment day)

48:29 Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves. Thou (O Muhammad) seest them bowing and falling prostrate (in worship), seeking bounty from Allah and (His) acceptance. The mark of them is on their foreheads from the traces of prostration. Such is their likeness in the Torah and their likeness in the Gospel - like as sown corn that sendeth forth its shoot and strengtheneth it and riseth firm upon its stalk, delighting the sowers - that He may enrage the disbelievers with (the sight of) them. Allah hath promised, unto such of them as believe and do good works, forgiveness and immense reward.

(Compares Muslim worship to a parable of Jesus in the Bible: Mark 4:27-28)

[Phebe Carlyle]

Re: Proving that The Bible is not the word of God.

The Bible IS the word of God.

Just because you wear a cravat and a velveteen jacket, doesn't make you any expert on The Bible.

The KJV1611 has been proven to be the WORD of God by a University in Jerusalem.


Your rubbish is nothing more than poppycock.

YIC

Mrs Phebe Dewitt.

[Ahmad_Deedat]

Re: Proving that The Bible is not the word of God.

As this guy stated on another topic..

The Landover Baptists may be bat-shit-insane, but grant them this much: They're bat-shit-insane in a manner that's actually consistent with their big book of fairy tales. OTOH, the people of other faiths who argue with them just pick and choose the Bible verses that they like and answer all other verses with "La la la la la, I can't hear you."

[Phebe Carlyle]

Re: Proving that The Bible is not the word of God.

As this guy stated on another topic..

So you admit you are just a false god following pukebag going la la la

WOW... like we DIDN'T know that....

YIC

Mrs Phebe Dewitt.

[James Dewitt]

Re: Proving that The Bible is not the word of God.

As this guy stated on another topic..

My friend when are you going to give up your false religion and get right with Jesus? Its not too late, don't you want to join us in His Glory?

[Ahmad_Deedat]

Re: Proving that The Bible is not the word of God.

So you admit you are just a false god following pukebag going la la la

WOW... like we DIDN'T know that....

YIC

Mrs Phebe Dewitt.

Yes I do. I am saved. Praise Jesus.

[Meek and Humble]

Re: Proving that The Bible is not the word of God.

Luke and Matthew both give us lists of Jesus´s fathers and grandfathers. Incredible since Jesus´s father supposedly is God.

Luke tells us from 3:23–38 that Jesus had 76 fathers and grandfathers.
Matthew tells us from 1:1–17 that Jesus had 40 fathers and grandfathers. And Amazingly the only name common to the two lists is Joseph who is not really supposed to be there..
Furthermore Matthew tells us in 1:16 that Jesus´s grandfather was Jacob. Luke tells us in 3:23 that Jesus´s grandfather was Heli..
A very clear contradiction There are six such contradictions in the genealogy alone. Look them up yourselves..

There are two genealogies, with two distinct purposes. Matthew, it appears reveals the genealogy of Joseph, and Luke, presents the genealogy of Mary.

Matthew, penning his gospel with the Jews in mind sets out to establish Jesus' qualifications to be the Messiah through Joseph's genealogy. Thus, beginning with Abraham, he maps the Lord's genealogy through David, and the kings which followed. He presents Jesus royal lineage (through the males) through "...Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus..."

Luke, writes to the Gentiles with a view toward the humanity of Christ. The concept of one being both God and man would seem strange and foreign to those accustomed to Greek and Roman gods. Thus, Luke begins at Jesus, and follows the genealogy of Mary, passing through the patriarchs, ending with the very first man, Adam.

If Luke is tracing the genealogy of Mary, why does he cite Joseph's name? Today, it would be politically incorrect to map a woman's genealogy through her husband, however, in Luke's day, it was proper and correct. Luke follows Mary's genealogy, beginning with the name of Joseph, her husband, Heli's son-in-law (in legal terms, his son by marriage).

Now, onto something else. Take a look at these verses..
Mattew 27:52 - And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
27:53 - And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The dead rose and marched down the streets of Jerusalem. Skeletons walking about. Then what happened next? Nothing apparently, that´s it. And wouldn´t people see? of hear?? What happened to them? Out of the 27 books of the New Testament only Matthew recorded it. Nobody else saw it or heard about it.
And what happened to the undead saints ? Where did they go? We won´t know because it´s another unfinished story. Half told.

The initial impression that one gets is that the bodies of deceased saints came back to life, and after Jesus resurrection (that is, not immediately during Jesus crucifixion, but later), they entered Jerusalem and many people saw them. A careful examination of the Greek words involved here, though, may suggest a scenario a bit less startling.

The statement that many bodies of the saints were raised is not necessarily referring to a resurrection, but a physical effect of the earthquake. The Greek word used here for were raised is not the term anastasis which is used elsewhere when the resurrection is the subject; its egerthesan. And the structure of the sentence requires that its the bodies of the saints, rather than the saints themselves, that arise. Thats all that is said to happen during the crucifixion.

After the crucifixion, and after Jesus resurrection, having gone forth out of the tombs after His arising (again, this isnt the normal term for resurrection), they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many. Even though the sentence doesnt start over and specify that in this phrase, the saints themselves, and not their physical bodies, are the subject, I think that thats the frame of reference.

Our next question is, What city is the holy city mentioned in 27:53? Is this the earthly Jerusalem, or the heavenly Jerusalem? Good arguments can be arrayed for both answers, so I will consider them both.

If the holy city is interpreted to be the earthly Jerusalem, then the spirits of some Old Testament saints whose bodies had been entombed in Jerusalem, having departed Sheol, were -- after Jesus resurrection -- allowed to briefly visit Jerusalem in forms quite similar to ghosts, and appear to many people there before proceeding on to Paradise.

If the holy city is interpreted to be the heavenly Jerusalem, then the spirits of some Old Testament saints whose bodies had been entombed in Jerusalem, having departed from Sheol, followed Christ directly from Sheol into Paradise, and there they entered their rest in the heavenly city, appearing unto many angels and to the privileged saints who had entered Paradise before them, thus manifesting to the angels the accomplishment of Gods purposes to usher in the new covenant which even the angels themselves had not fathomed.

The second interpretation is tidy. But maybe its a little too tidy. While the first interpretation is more challenging theologically, I think it offers a better explanation for the phrase and appeared unto many. The term used in 27:53 for appeared is enefanisthesan. While this word could describe the manifestation of a ghost-apparition, or an ordinary encounter between one human being and another, it is also capable of describing manifestations in dreams or visions. Matthew doesnt provide enough details for us to confidently discern which mode of appearance he had in mind. (Hebrews 9:24 uses a very similar word to refer to Christs appearance in heaven; other usages -- some of which describe communication, rather than a visual manifestation -- include Heb. 11:14 and Acts 23:22).

Let´s go on..

In Judges 3:31 it says - And after him was Shamgar the son of Anath, which slew of the Philistines six hundred men with an ox goad: and he also delivered Israel.

A goad is a cattle prodder or basicly a stick with a little nail at the end. Incredible. With this stick a Jewish lad killed 600 palestinians? What were the palestinians doing? They couldn´t flee and run for their life? Where they standing in line waiting for Shamgar to poke them to death with his stick? And where did he strike them to kill 600?

Yes. That is a power of having God on your side? Are you suggesting Allah could not make someone kill 600 men with a goad? Sounds like a pretty weak deity you have there.

15:16
The story is just about as stupid as the story of Samson in Judges 15:15 - And he found a new jawbone of an ass, and put forth his hand, and took it, and slew a thousand men therewith.
He kills 1000 men with the jawbone of a Donkey. Again, what where the palestinians doing ? Waiting to be killed with a jawbone ? Silly.
I like 15:16 - And Samson said, With the jawbone of an ass, heaps upon heaps, with the jaw of an ass have I slain a thousand men. Hooray..

See above.

In Judges 15:4 the same Samson with the magical powers - And Samson went and caught three hundred foxes, and took firebrands, and turned tail to tail, and put a firebrand in the midst between two tails.

How on earth did the catch 300 foxes and tie them tail to tail ?? Try to catch a chicken or a goat. That´s an ordeal. Not very easy.
First of all, where did he find 300 foxes? He then tied them two-two by the tails. He made 150 pairs. And the foxes apparently cooperated. Try tying the tails of two small pooddles and see what they´ll do to you..
But Samson did it and even put fire between their tails and sent them on to the fields of the palestinians. And the foxes cooperated all along.. Nice..

Yeah. It's almost as ridiculous as this story I heard about a man who took two of every animal in the whole world into a little boat with him for forty days and forty nights. As if a single man could capture two of every animal in the world, and then fit them all into one boat. And all the animals cooperated. What a ridiculous story

Now I´d like to address the matter of many people saying that The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) copied up to 75% of the Bible to put in the Quran.

So I ask myself. What is worth copying? Let´s have a look.

There are in the bible 10 cases of incest. Describing the various ways one can commit it. Amazing. Out of the 10 cases of incest Muhammad did not copy a single one.. Look mainly in Genesis and Deuteronomy..
The Bible is a textbook on incest. Wan´t to know how to commit it. Look it up in the Bible..

Apparently, you missed this passages:

Leviticus 18:6 “None of you shall approach any one of his close relatives to uncover nakedness. I am the Lord.

All the cases of incest happened before God decreed this law. You cannot break a law that hasn't been made yet. Besides, just because the Bible mentions incest does not mean it is approving of it. By your logic, I suppose you believe it is alright to offer your daughters to be raped by a crowd of men, since Lot did it and it's mentioned in the Quran?

And may I ask. After Adam and Eve gave birth to their children. How did their children have children?

In Judges 16:1 - Then went Samson to Gaza, and saw there an harlot, and went in unto her.
What does this teach you? Samson goes to Gaza, sees a whore and goes to bed with her.. There is not a single judging word for what Samson did.. Nothing! God didn´t give him Aids or Gonorrhea or anything to punish him? No.

Ah Judges 16, and the story of Samson finally defeated. Here we see him fall to what must be his greatest weakness, his lust for women, and apparent unfailing trust of them despite all evidence against doing so.

You were saying something about Samson not being punished?

Now have a look at these verses..

Isaiah 7:20 - In the same day shall the Lord shave with a rasor that is hired, [namely], by them beyond the river, by the king of Assyria, the head, and the hair of the feet: and it shall also consume the beard.

What is this? God almighty is gonna shave peoples hair and feet??

First, it doesn't say God will do it. It says the Assyrians will. This is a warning of a punishment God was going to send the disobedient Israelites. A foreign land was going to invade them. To cut off a man's hair in that time was a sign of ultimate humiliation, almost taking away his masculinity. Seeing as how the rest of the chapter talks about agriculture after this, this is most likely a metaphor that the Assyrians were going to destroy Israel's land and take away their crops.

2 Samuel 22:9 - There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

Is God smoking a cigarette? And where did people who blow smoke out through their noses when they smoke get the idea from? The Bible! And fire out of his mouth. Like a dragon. The guy who invented flamethrowers may have gotten the idea from reading the Bible..

This proves the Bible is not the word of God - how?

This is my favorite..
2 Samuel 22:11 - And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.
God Almighty is riding a cherub

which is a little angle girl. God Almighty riding a little girl and flying. And you think God said this? I am actually insulted by this. Mockery... The mighty God riding little girls?? Come on!! Shame on you..

Wow, your stupidity knows no bounds, doesn't it? The idea of a cherub as a little angel girl is a MODERN day invention, based more on pagan mythology than on the Bible. You are thinking of "putti" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putti In fact, the Hebrew word used only means angel. Cherubs are mighty and great guardians. A cherub even guards the Garden of Eden with a flaming sword. When it says God is riding on them, it only means that God uses them to do His work on earth.

A description of cherubs are found it the Bible. They do not sound anything like little girls:

Ezekiel1:5And out of the midst of it came the likeness of four living creatures [or cherubim]. And this was their appearance: they had the likeness of a man,
6But each one had four faces and each one had four wings.
7And their legs were straight legs, and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot, and they sparkled like burnished bronze.
8And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides. And the four of them had their faces and their wings thus:
9Their wings touched one another; they turned not when they went but went every one straight forward.
10As for the [a]likeness of their faces, they each had the face of a man [in front], and each had the face of a lion on the right side and the face of an ox on the left side; the four also had the face of an eagle [at the back of their heads].(A)
11Such were their faces. And their wings were stretched out upward [each creature had four wings]; two wings of each one were touching the [adjacent] wing of the creatures on either side of it, and [the remaining] two wings of each creature covered its body.

Then we have this.. in Numbers.

Numbers 31:17 - Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18 - But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Good instructions for the Jewish soldier going to war. How does he know if a little palestinian girl has experienced sex or not? Only one way. To rape her.. So after verifying he kills her if she was not a virgin and keep her alive if she was.. And in Numbers 31:35 - And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.. So after raping the palestinian women they saved for themselves 32.000 girls.. And in Numbers 31:40 - And the persons [were] sixteen thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute [was] thirty and two persons. God want´s his pound of flesh. His share.. Why does God need 32 raped palestinian girls ??? Do you really believe this to be God´s words?? Kill all men, women and children. Except the virgins of course..?
This is nothing but Jewish folklore.

First of all, there was no ‘test for virginity’ needed/used. In spite of the elaborate/miraculous one created by the later rabbi’s (ingenious, but altogether unnecessary) using the Urim and Thummim (!), the ‘test for virginity’ in the ANE was a simple visual one:

• Was the female pre-pubescent?
• Was the female wearing any attire, jewelry, or adornments required for/associated with virginity for that culture?
• Was the female wearing any attire, jewelry, or adornments required for/associated with non-virginity for that culture (e.g., veil indicating married status)?

Because virginity was generally associated with legal proof for blood-inheritance issues in ancient cultures (e.g., land, property, kinship, relationships), virginity itself was often marked by some type of clothing (e.g., the robe of Tamar in 2 Sam 13) or by cosmetic means (cf. the Hindu ‘pre-marriage dot’); as was more typically non-virginal married status (e.g., veils, headwear, jewelry, or certain hairstyles). Of course, non-virginal unmarried status (e.g., temple prostitutes and secular prostitutes) were also indicated by special markings or adornments (e.g. jewelry, dress—cf. Proverbs 7.10; Hos 2.4-5).

For example, the erotic art of the ANE shows a consistent difference in hairstyles between women and sacred prostitutes:

“In fact, the physical characteristics of the women on the [erotic] plaques are totally different from those of other female representations in Mesopotamian and Syrian art. As with the clay figurines, they are frequently naked and their hair is loose—none of these traits is to be found in statues or seals that represent women...These groups [associations of cultic prostitutes] were defined by a generic name [the ‘separated ones’], while their specific names of individual associations hinted at their garments, which were particularly luxurious, or odd, their coiffure, or to their general appearance, which distinguished them from other women.” [OT:CANE:2526]

Some of these patterns varied by culture/age:

“Once married, women were not veiled in Babylonia. Legal texts imply that married women were veiled in Assyria.” [OTLAM:135]

“The bride was covered with a veil that the groom removed. Married women were not veiled in Babylonia but seem to have had a special headgear; legal texts, however, suggest that married women were veiled in Assyria.” [OT:CANE:489]


In other words, the process of identifying the females who were (a) not married and (b) not prostitutes, either sacred or secular, would have been relatively straightforward—at the precision level required by the event.


Secondly, the accusation that these girls were for “sex slave” purposes contradicts what we know about the culture and about the event. [But at least one of the writers above--to their credit--added the word ‘presumably’, realizing that the text doesn’t actually say anything about it…]

1. Most girls were married soon/immediately after they began menstruating in the ANE (circa 12 years of age), and since infant and child mortality was so high, the average age of the girls spared would have been around 5 years of age or slightly lower (life expectancy wasn’t a straight line, with childhood risks so high). Of all the horrible things ascribed to Israel in the OT, pedophilia is the one conspicuous omission. That these little kids would have been even considered as ‘sex slaves’ seems quite incongruent with their ages.

And, at this tender age, they would not have been very useful as ‘slaves’ at all! Children raised in Israelite households were ‘put to work’ around this age, sometimes doing light chores to help the mother for up to four hours per day by the age of 7 or 8 [OT:FAI:27], but 5 is still a bit young. Instead, the Israelite families would have had to feed, clothe, train, care, protect, and shelter them for several years before they could make much contribution to the family’s existence and survival. [Also note that ‘slavery’ in the ANE/OT generally means something quite different from “New World” slavery, which we normally associate with the world ‘slavery’, and most of what is called that in popular literature should not be so termed. See qnoslave.html for the discussion and documentation.]


2. Unlike the Greeks and Romans, the ANE was not very ‘into’ using slaves/captives for sexual purposes, even though scholars earlier taught this:

“During the pinnacle of Sumerian culture, female slaves outnumbered male. Their owners used them primarily for spinning and weaving. Saggs maintains that their owners also used them for sex, but there is little actual evidence to support such a claim” [OT:EML:69]

3. And the Hebrews were different in this regard ANYWAY:

“This fidelity and exclusivity [demands on the wife] did not apply to the husband. Except among the Hebrews, where a husband’s infidelity was disparaged in the centuries after 800 BC, a double standard prevailed, and husbands were routinely expected to have sex not only with their wives, but with slavewomen and prostitutes.” [WS:AHTO:39; note: I would disagree with the remark about ‘after 800 bc’ because that dating presupposes a very late date for the composition of the narratives under discussion…If the narrative events occurred closer to the purposed times, then this ‘disparagement’ applied earlier in Israel as well as later.]

4. Even if we allow the age range to be older, to include girls capable of bearing children, the probability is that it was not sex-motivated, but population/economics-motivated, as Carol Meyers points out [“The Roots of Restriction: Women in Early Israel”, Biblical Archaeologist, vol 41):

“Beyond this, however, the intensified need for female participation in working out the Mosaic revolution in the early Israelite period can be seen in the Bible. Looking again at Numbers 31, an exception to the total purge of the Midianite population is to be noted. In addition to the metal objects which were exempt from utter destruction, so too were the “young girls who have not known man by lying with him” (Num 31:18). These captives, however, were not immediately brought into the Israelite camp. Instead, they and their captors were kept outside the camp for seven days in a kind of quarantine period. (Note that the usual incubation period for the kinds of infectious diseases which could conceivably have existed in this situation is two or three to six days [Eickhoff 1977].) Afterward, they thoroughly washed themselves and all their clothing before they entered the camp. This incident is hardly an expression of lascivious male behavior; rather, it reflects the desperate need for women of childbearing age, a need so extreme that the utter destruction of the Midianite foes—and the prevention of death by plague—as required by the law of the herem could be waived in the interest of sparing the young women. The Israelites weighed the life-death balance, and the need for females of childbearing age took precedence.”

[But note that the traditional rabbinic interpretation of the passage is that all females which were capable of bearing children were killed—not just those who actually were non-virginal. This would drive the average age quite low, although the Hebrew text offers only limited support at best for their interpretation.]

[I should also point out that the “for yourselves” phrase (31.18) is NOT actually referring to “for your pleasure”, but is a reference to the opposite condition of “for YHWH” which applied to all people or property which was theoretically supposed to be destroyed in such combat situations. The herem (or ‘ban’) specifically indicated that all enemy people or property which was ‘delivered over to YHWH’ was to be killed/destroyed. By referring to ‘for yourselves’, then, in this passage, means simply ‘do not kill them’. This can also be seen in that this ‘booty’ was not ‘for themselves’ actually, but was distributed to others within the community.]

Let´s move on to more contradictions..

In John 18:9 Jesus says - That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

In John 17:12 the same Jesus says - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

In chapter 18 he said he lost none and in chapter 17 he said he lost one. So which is it? One or none ? Stupendous difference.. Another contradiction. I find it odd, though ingenious, that in the KJV´s 5th major revision version the words of Jesus are in red. And his words in 18:9 are in red. In the KJV´s 6th major revision version his words in 18:9 are no longer in red. A neat trick to conceal a contradiction ??

The alleged problem: Jesus supposedly "lost" some of those given to Him. The two verses do not contradict each other, for Judas was not one of those given. John 18:9 and 17:12 complement each other and the former is informed by the latter since it precedes it

In Exodus Moses want´s to see God. But God says No! Exodus 33:20 - And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.. So in Exodus 33:23 - And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. Moses is allowed only to see God´s back.
But in Exodus 33:11 - And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle. As a man speaks to his friend. Not showing his back.
And in Genesis 32:30 - And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. Jacob was allowed to see the face of God?
Why these contradictions if this is the word of God?

No man can see the Lord as He is. One text cited above states, He "...alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen." (1 Timothy 6:16). When we read of someone in the Bible seeing the Lord, they have not seen Him in this unapproachable form.

For there to be a contradiction, the questioner needs to produce a passage which states that someone has approached the Lord's "...unapproachable light..." We find several times in Scripture the Lord appearing in various forms, such as -- a burning bush (Exodus 3); with the appearance of a man (Ezekiel 1:26); as the Angel of the Lord (Numbers 22:27; Judges 6:22); and through a cloud and pillar of fire (Numbers 14:14). The only time it seems that a man came close to seeing the Lord in His unapproachable form is Moses in Exodus 33. The face to face meeting with the Lord in verse 11 is not with His "unapproachable light", for in verses 20-23, the Lord tells Moses he cannot see His face. Moses could not see while the glory of the Lord passed by.

Finally. In the Bible we are told that God created the Heaven and the Earth in six days. Exodus 31:17 - It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. He rested on the seventh and was refreshed. Meaning that after six days of hard labor God needed to rest.

The Holy Quran tells us in 50:38 - We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in Six Days, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us.
Pick your choice! The God that tires or the God that feels no fatigue.. The God of the Bible who needs rest or Allah who did not tire after creating everything..

There is a difference between being tired and getting refreshed.

Last one I promise.. In Mark 10:27 - And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men [it is] impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. Nothing is impossible for God. But in Judges 1:19 - And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out [the inhabitants of] the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. Here we learn that Judah and God drove out the people in the mountains but could not drive out the people of the lowlands.. Because they had chariots? They had "tanks" so God Almighty could not prevail.?
The Quran says in 85:16 that God is the - Doer of whatever He wills.
You pick what God to worship..

Certainly God is able to stop iron chariots and be victorious over them. Deborah and Barak went to battle in faith, and God gave them the victory (Judges 4:13-16)

But what about the iron chariots of Judges 1:19? Is it that God could not overcome them? See what the text says: "So the LORD was with Judah. And they drove out the mountaineers, but they could not drive out the inhabitants of the lowland, because they had chariots of iron." Who had trouble with the chariots, the LORD or the people of Judah? It does not say "He could not drive them out", but rather, "they could not drive them out".

As one follows through the rest of the chapter, it becomes apparent that none of the men of Israel approached the duty of driving the inhabitants of the land out with the certainty of faith. Time and again, we're told that they did not drive the inhabitants out (v 21, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33). God had given the land into Judah's hand (v 2), it was up to Judah to work to purge the land. It was not the LORD who failed, it was the men of Judah.

And don't forget this:

Judges 4:13-16 And Sisera gathered together all his chariots, even nine hundred chariots of iron, and all the people that were with him, from Harosheth of the Gentiles unto the river of Kishon. And Deborah said unto Barak, Up; for this is the day in which the LORD hath delivered Sisera into thine hand: is not the LORD gone out before thee? So Barak went down from mount Tabor, and ten thousand men after him. And the LORD discomfited Sisera, and all his chariots, and all his host, with the edge of the sword before Barak; so that Sisera lighted down off his chariot, and fled away on his feet. But Barak pursued after the chariots, and after the host, unto Harosheth of the Gentiles: and all the host of Sisera fell upon the edge of the sword; and there was not a man left.

That was all for now.

The challenge is up!!

All of those answers could be found in the first page of a simple google search. You didn't try very hard to stump us, did you?

[Lisa H]

Re: Proving that The Bible is not the word of God.

As this guy stated on another topic..

The Landover Baptists may be bat-shit-insane, but grant them this much: They're bat-shit-insane in a manner that's actually consistent with their big book of fairy tales. OTOH, the people of other faiths who argue with them just pick and choose the Bible verses that they like and answer all other verses with "La la la la la, I can't hear you."

Ahmad I find it strange you are following the word of an unbeliever. What does your Quran say about that

Quran 2:9 They desire to deceive Allah and those who believe, and they deceive only themselves and they do not perceive.

Quran 2:15 Allah shall pay them back their mockery, and He leaves them alone in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on.

Quran 2:39 And those who disbelieve in and reject My communications, they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide.

PS: Have you forgotten your Allah is supposed to be the same as God.

[Lisa H]

Re: Proving that The Bible is not the word of God.

Ahmad I am surprised by you coming here and trying to discredit True Christians.

I feel you have not been true to yourself, Islam, Allah and the people here. Why are lying about who you are and being an to impostor to the real Ahmed Deedat. Ahmed died on the 8th of August 2005. You have even stolen his picture to use as your own.

Lets see what your Quran says about that

Quran 2:42 And do not mix up the truth with the falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know.

Quran 6:100 And they make the jinn associates with Allah, while He created them, and they falsely attribute to Him sons and daughters without knowledge; glory be to Him, and highly exalted is He above what they ascribe.