Pondering His Plan

[MMK182]

I must admit, my knowledge of Scripture is limited, and I am hoping for enlightenment on my questions.


The Epicurean Dilemma
I have been told by those far more spiritual than I, that God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and benevolent, and therefore I assume these are true, but again please let me know if I have been misinformed.

The core of the question is "Where does Evil come from", in the Epicurean sense.

For evil exists in this world, that I am certain. However, is He able to stop evil, but unwilling? Is He willing to stop evil, but unable? Is he both able and willing, but is not aware of the evil?

It is a most frustrating circle of doubt, can you help me resolve it?

The Free Will Paradox
God is all-knowing (as stated before), and creates Man in His image. If my knowledge is correct, He then gives Man the powerful gift of free will. However, if God knows all, past, present and future, then how could Man do something God doesn't expect? Why are we here if He knows how our lives were, how our lives are, and how our lives will be?

And, perhaps, a most dangerous question; if I do anything, would I be doing it, indirectly, with God's blessing, since He knew I was going to do it to begin with?

A curious question on Prayer
God, again, is all-knowing. Surely, He knows your innermost thoughts, desires, problems, and triumphs, or else He may have some trouble sorting you out Up There (Humor, anyone?). But, to the question - since He knows what you've thought, what you're thinking, and what you're going to think, why pray? I don't think prayer is bad, how could it be? However I'm curious as to the scripture behind prayer.


The Sixth Commandment
I absolutely agree with all 10 commandments. However, I find it somewhat disturbing how often He and His most illustrious breaks the sixth one, "Thou shalt not kill" or "Thou shalt not murder" depending on the translation. I suppose, were I to put my feelings in question form, it should be "Why does God not follow the Sixth commandment?"

He also, perhaps, broke the 10th amendment, where he impregnated another man's wife, however it may be a matter of perspective I suppose.
(That last part was a joke)

I preemptively apologize if my questions are an inconvenience to answer, and thank you very much for reading this (lengthy, ignorant) post.

[Lycia The Repentant]

Re: Pondering His Plan

I'll do my best to answer your questions (cut me some slack though, I am a woman), but each of these questions is going to take a bit of a lengthy write-up. Please hold on while I write them up.

[MMK182]

Re: Pondering His Plan

I'll do my best to answer your questions (cut me some slack though, I am a woman), but each of these questions is going to take a bit of a lengthy write-up. Please hold on while I write them up.

No problem at all, this is a far faster response than I expected.

[Lycia The Repentant]

Re: Pondering His Plan

The Problem of Evil

The Problem of Evil, or the Epicurean dilemma, is a question about how to explain the existence of evil if God is omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient. A version of the logical proof is as follows:

1. God exists.
2. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good.
3. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
4. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
5. An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
7. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
8. Evil exists (logical contradiction).

There are many different ways to respond to this argument, and I believe if we take a look at some of those responses we can find that it really isn't a dilemma at all. Evil DOES exist, but it doesn't negate the fact that God is a perfect being.

The first response to this is that we have free will. I am going to be rather brief here because I will be addressing this to answer your next question, but scripture definitely backs up the fact that humans have free will. One of the consequences, however, of having free will is that it is possible to abuse that free will. God could have certainly created a world filled with organic robots that could only do "good", but one of the things that defines goodness is that we are not forced to do things that are good.

Think of it this way. Many people believe giving money to a charity is a morally good action. They would commend you for it. But imagine somebody is holding a gun to your head and forces you to give money to a charity. The action of giving money to a charity has now ceased to be morally good because you simply had no choice in the matter (assuming you didn't want to get shot in the head). Actions are only morally good if we have the choice to do things that are morally bad. It is my belief that any suffering and evil people cause absolutely pales in comparison to the value of the gift of free will.

Next, it is only possible for certain kinds of goodness to exist because of the existence of evil in the world. We can only be brave if there is something to fear, we can only be compassionate if there is suffering, and we can only make sacrifices for others if there are situations when others are in need. Take, for example, these verses from the Bible:

"Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee." Deuteronomy 31:6

"Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:" 1 Peter 3:8

"But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." 1 Timothy 5:8

It would be impossible to be any of these things if there didn't exist conditions in the world that required us to act this way.

So we can see that there are justifications for evil existing. It is through the existence of evil that we are better able to use the gift of free will God gave us and to hollow His commandments better. Though there is suffering that exists in the world that sometimes we cannot explain, it in no way detracts from the absolute perfection of God because it is used to serve His purpose. Let me leave you with a few more verses that, I hope, illustrate my point:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" Amos 3:6

"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?" Lamentations 3:38

I hope that has answered your first question. I'm going to take a break for a few minutes and I'll get started on answering your next question.

[barton]

Re: Pondering His Plan

Lycia The Repentant will certainly provide a thorough writeup on each. I'll just make a few comments.

The Epicurean Dilemma

The reason this seems a dilemma is because you see limited and contradictory possibilities. From the human perspective, it's inconceivable that God would not do something about it all to our immediate satisfaction.

First of all, evil came into the world because of free will and temptation. This is outlined in Genesis Chapter 3. The consequence of this original sin is written in Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

All of the evil committed in this world is a result of original sin. All the evil mankind has suffered throughout all time has been caused by other men. God does not condone evil and, as the Bible teaches, He will hold everyone accountable. We are all deserving of Hell for the evil we have all committed. "...how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (see Matthew 23:33)

So far, this doesn't sound like much of a solution, passing judgment on everyone and sending them all to hell. This is where salvation comes in for True Believers. Read the rest of Romans Chapter 5 for God's entire plan in dealing with the evil we wrought. verse 18 has "Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life."
Of course, this is how I understand things and I am open to correction by my seniors here.

The Free Will Paradox

This is only a paradox from our human point of view. God knows every intimate, personal detail of the past, present and future simultaneously. As the Creator, His presence fills more than this universe of spatial dimensions and Time. His consciousness exists in all times simultaneously. Therefore, it doesn't seem to me that the word "expect" can even be used with respect to Him. To "expect" something implies a less than perfect knowledge.

So, while we exist and plod through our lives and watch time unfold moment by moment, we make our choices and exercise our free will. This is not incompatible with the fact that God saw/sees it all happen simultaneously.

I hope this makes sense to you

A curious question on Prayer

I believe prayer is a state of one's mind/soul, as much as it is the actual words. God doesn't need our prayers. It's we that need to be praying, talking with Him. In other words, the fact that a Christian prays constantly is a symptom of his walk with the Lord. I don't recall any scripture that speaks directly about this... it just seems common sense to me.

The Sixth Commandment

One answer ...that will not appeal to those that do not recognize God's absolute authority... is that these are God's commandments to us. Who commands God? He is not bound by these laws. Personally, this is enough for me.

Another answer, specific to your question about murder, is that God clearly distinguishes between sanctioned killing and unsanctioned killing (murder). Homosexuals and witches are to be put to death... sanctioned killings. Sending one's children to Molech was not sanctioned and would be a violation, for eg.

[Lycia The Repentant]

Re: Pondering His Plan

The Free Will Paradox

Here you bring up what is, at first glance, a very good question. If God knows what we are going to do beforehand, why would He bother giving us commandments at all? However, if we examine this issue, we can see it is possible for humans and God to have free will while still acknowledging the fact that God is omniscient.

First, we must agree that humans are created in God's image. Scripture backs this up:

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Genesis 1:27

Next, we need to examine if people have free will. Scripture also backs this up:

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:" Deuteronomy 30:19

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

"Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways." Proverbs 3:31

This brings up an interesting question. If humans are created in the image of God and also have free will, does God have free will? Yes, He does, and scripture ALSO backs this up:

"Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people." Exodus 32:10-14

"Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." Jonah 3:9-10

"And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel." 1 Samuel 15:35

Now, at first there seems to be a conflict with this scripture regarding predestination:

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Romans 8:29-30

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," Ephesians 1:5

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" Ephesians 1:11

This seems to be a troubling contradiction at first, until we realize one simple fact. God is not bound within the passage of time. He is eternal, and therefore outside of time.

"And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God." Genesis 21:33

"The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them." Deuteronomy 33:27

So, we can see that God, being eternal, is omniscient because he knows what is happening at all points of time, but this does not negate our free will at any one point in time.

Think of it this way. When you drive to work every day, you basically go the same way from your house to your job. But every time you make that trip, you drive slightly differently to account for things like potholes, other drivers, red lights, etc. God knows where everything will end up, but has the freedom to account for things the same way we have the freedom to avoid potholes when we go drive to work.

EDIT: Mr. Barton has basically answered your next two questions anyways, so I'm not going to. I hope we have been able to clear things up for you.

[MMK182]

Re: Pondering His Plan

Thank you both, very much, for answering my questions. I did enjoy the read, and it quite thoroughly addressed the questions in my mind.

An extra thanks for detailed quotations of scripture from Lycia the Repetant, it is most enlightening!

However, not all were interested in my questions, and apparently at least one administrator on this site feels offended by my admittedly ignorant questions. However, while I admit that my questions are not perfect, I came with the intent and hope to learn. However, to my dismay, I have recieved an infraction, the reason being "Athiest scum using Landover to mock Christianity"

So I have been called "Athiest Scum" by an administrator, who feels my purpose was not to learn, but to mock. While it is true that I have had difficulty accepting God I was He accepts me, I am offended that I've been called an athiest. I do believe in God, but I do not understand Him.

I deeply appreciate you both answering my questions in a forthright, honest way, and you both have done nothing but try to make me feel welcome. However, I don't feel comfortable when I recieve messages, in private as opposed to on a public thread, insulting me for my ignorance by comparing me to an athiest, and accusing my curiosity of being a will to destroy.

I have a very limited knowledge of Scripture. But, most strangely, a passage comes to mind, however the actor is Samuel L Jackson, from the 90's film "Pulp Fiction", who portrays a religious (but certainly immoral) character in the film.

"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and goodwill shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee." - Ezekiel 25:17 (I think)

I feel as the weak, despite my selfishness and tyranny of Evil, I seek shepherding in the valley of darkness. I feel someone is attempting to poison and destroy my presence, here, and now I shall leave.

[landoverlover]

Re: Pondering His Plan

Thank you both, very much, for answering my questions. I did enjoy the read, and it quite thoroughly addressed the questions in my mind.

An extra thanks for detailed quotations of scripture from Lycia the Repetant, it is most enlightening!

However, not all were interested in my questions, and apparently at least one administrator on this site feels offended by my admittedly ignorant questions. However, while I admit that my questions are not perfect, I came with the intent and hope to learn. However, to my dismay, I have recieved an infraction, the reason being "Athiest scum using Landover to mock Christianity"

So I have been called "Athiest Scum" by an administrator, who feels my purpose was not to learn, but to mock. While it is true that I have had difficulty accepting God I was He accepts me, I am offended that I've been called an athiest. I do believe in God, but I do not understand Him.

I deeply appreciate you both answering my questions in a forthright, honest way, and you both have done nothing but try to make me feel welcome. However, I don't feel comfortable when I recieve messages, in private as opposed to on a public thread, insulting me for my ignorance by comparing me to an athiest, and accusing my curiosity of being a will to destroy.

I have a very limited knowledge of Scripture. But, most strangely, a passage comes to mind, however the actor is Samuel L Jackson, from the 90's film "Pulp Fiction", who portrays a religious (but certainly immoral) character in the film.

"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and goodwill shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee." - Ezekiel 25:17 (I think)

I feel as the weak, despite my selfishness and tyranny of Evil, I seek shepherding in the valley of darkness. I feel someone is attempting to poison and destroy my presence, here, and now I shall leave.

Friend, I have been where you are. There have been scads, stacks, screeds, entire libraries about the questions you asked. Predestination vs foreordination, free will, apparent paradoxes, and seeming unsolvable logical contradictions. People were actually burned alive over debates about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

You will never, ever, get to a place where all of these things get resolved to your satisfaction if that is the basis upon which you judge the 'truth' of Christianity. Words and human systems of logic are not the real world, merely constructs for filtering and trying to interpret sensory input.

My advice is a paradigm shift to a completely different method of judging 'truth.' Toss Emmanuel Kant and Company under the bus and use the most subjective and unscientific method to determine what is truth. That would be trusting your judgement, your heart, your instincts.

Assume for the moment that God exists, in the way True Christian members insist. What do you have to lose?

Next, make a mental inventory of every sinful thing you've done. Close your eyes. Sincerely, humbly, ask Jesus Christ to come into your heart. Confess your sins. Ask Him to forgive you. Don't try faking it. If you don't 'feel' anything immediately remember this is not a Holy vending machine - as in, put in a sin, get a perfect life in the slot....

Obey God's word after you have done the above. Then watch your life change in ways you cannot begin to imagine. Keep doing the things I've mentioned every day, along with reading your KJV Bible and attending a Baptist church for guidance and fellowship.

Look back after, say, a year has gone by.

I'm telling you that you will not recognize your old self and your old life, and wouldn't want to.

And THAT is how you determine the Truth of things, not by scribbling around with Categorical Imperatives and Ockham's Razor and such.

I'll expect a report and pray for you!