[tomdstone]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

While this sentence of yours in quite nice the issue we're discussing is how the Catholic claims make Jesus impotent by His failing to turn into (from your viewpoint) functional tool of Salvation without gluten. That is undermining omnipotence.

No it does not. God can choose to use His omnipotence as he pleases.
For example, Jesus could have chosen an apple instead of bread at the Last Supper. He did not choose to do so. It does not mean that He is impotent.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

Hitherto, you've been expressing your opinions as simple assertions, as "facts"... Personal opinions and feelings are not proof. If an adequate number of people have a similar opinion, it may become a hypothesis. You're still far from that. If the hypothesis is interesting enough it may be tested by examining the Bible against it, and by assessing if there is support to the hypothesis...

A simple dismissal of all this by your confirmation bias may keep you satisfied but it will not help you persuade others of your opinion...

Unsubstantiated claims will receive no further replies from yours Truly™.

No it does not. God can choose to use His omnipotence as he pleases.
For example, Jesus could have chosen an apple instead of bread at the Last Supper. He did not choose to do so. It does not mean that He is impotent.

Thank you. Your post is an excellent example of the unproductive argumentation scheme I described in my post above. I will pursue this further by praying for you, as it must be more effective than our efforts to make you understand the difference between opinion and evidence.

Proverbs 26:4
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[tomdstone]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

Thank you. Your post is an excellent example of the unproductive argumentation scheme

It is only unproductive because you fail to see that God can use His omnipotence as He pleases. He is not obligated to use His omnipotence in a manner that you may desire.
It is a serious error to say that Jesus is impotent because He does not use His power in this particular way or that particular way. AFAIK, impotence refers to someone who is powerless and unable to take effective action. Jesus was not powerless.
There are certain things that God does not do. For example, He will not make a stone He cannot lift. He will not make a triangle that is not a triangle. It does not mean that God is impotent.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

It is only unproductive because you fail to see that God can use His omnipotence as He pleases. He is not obligated to use His omnipotence in a manner that you may desire.
It is a serious error to say that Jesus is impotent because He does not use His power in this particular way or that particular way. AFAIK, impotence refers to someone who is powerless and unable to take effective action. Jesus was not powerless.
There are certain things that God does not do. For example, He will not make a stone He cannot lift. He will not make a triangle that is not a triangle. It does not mean that God is impotent.

Fine,

One more question. How do you justify the Catholic position that God can make Himself (as Jesus) present in bread that contains wheat gluten but not in bread that does not contain wheat gluten? Why is the first thing something that God does do and the second one a thing He does not do? What is the "solum Triticum aestivum" doctrine actually based on? What is the document that has made the Catholic leaders confident that gluten-free does not work but gluten does? That is the issue here. Unless you provide us with the actual evidence that gluten works as Jesus but gluten-free does not we go back to the thing that I desperately try to explain to you!

• It becomes an unsubstantiated claim. Not only by you but by the whole Catholic Church
• That claim includes the notion that Jesus can appear in wheat but not in rice or corn flour-derived products. This is a position that has to based on something else and not only an opinion.
• That makes Jesus a laughing stock.
• If you fail to have Biblical evidence that only wheat works (and that the passages that oppose the whole transubstatiation notion can be dismissed), this new Catholic commandment of Triticum only is just another opinion and not fact.

We certainly know that God employs His omnipotence exactly as He pleases. In fact, we thrive where you failed, as we can give you Biblical evidence of this.

Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

You could have done at least that much to justify your position. Why did you not do that? Why did you not bother?


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[tomdstone]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

• That claim includes the notion that Jesus can appear in wheat but not in rice or corn flour-derived products.

• Jesus can appear in a date. But did He choose to do so?
• Why did He choose to use Bread at the Last Supper and not dates?

[tomdstone]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

Me too.




.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

• Jesus can appear in a date. But did He choose to do so?
• Why did He choose to use Bread at the Last Supper and not dates?

Last try.

Why is only a certain kind of bread suitable? You would probably be able to justify your position about dates and bread with the Bible (that is obviously an ad ridiculum and thus fallacious argumentation, and you would still have to assess the verses that oppose transubstantiation). If gluten is necessary, you must justify this and not make a smokescreen (a fallacy) escape. I.e., this is a positive claim by Catholics: "You need gluten". Why? If it is what Jesus wants, then you must have a document of His Will.

How do you know that, e.g., other ancient crops that can be processed into bread (such as buckwheat that has been cultivated in China and in the Middle East since 6000 BC; Ohnishi O .1998. Search for the wild ancestor of buckwheat III. The wild ancestor of cultivated common buckwheat, and of tatary buckwheat. Economic Botany. 52: 123–133), but contain no gluten are not suitable? The burden of proof is on your side regarding this individual single item. Why is wheat OK and gluten-free bread not? Because this is the actual claim that the Catholic Church does. You not only have to answer that Jesus "does not wish to appear in gluten-free products" (the negative) but also the positive claim ("He only appears in wheat") by providing documentation and not only opinions. Regarding your questions, you are welcome to start your own sites and threads questioning our beliefs. However, you're making a straw man fallacy by posing questions that do not contain any details of our doctrine.

Evasive posts by answering legitimate questions with ad ridiculum may be fun but only add to your ballast of fallacious argumentation.

Proverbs 9:6
Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[tomdstone]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

Why is only a certain kind of bread suitable? You would probably be able to justify your position about dates and bread with the Bible (that is obviously an ad ridiculum and thus fallacious argumentation, and you would still have to assess the verses that oppose transubstantiation). If gluten is necessary, you must justify this and not make a smokescreen (a fallacy) escape. I.e., this is a positive claim by Catholics: "You need gluten". Why? If it is what Jesus wants, then you must have a document of His Will.

How do you know that, e.g., other ancient crops that can be processed into bread (such as buckwheat that has been cultivated in China and in the Middle East since 6000 BC; Ohnishi O .1998. Search for the wild ancestor of buckwheat III. The wild ancestor of cultivated common buckwheat, and of tatary buckwheat. Economic Botany. 52: 123–133), but contain no gluten are not suitable? The burden of proof is on your side regarding this individual single item. Why is wheat OK and gluten-free bread not? Because this is the actual claim that the Catholic Church does. You not only have to answer that Jesus "does not wish to appear in gluten-free products" (the negative) but also the positive claim ("He only appears in wheat") by providing documentation and not only opinions. Regarding your questions, you are welcome to start your own sites and threads questioning our beliefs. However, you're making a straw man fallacy by posing questions that do not contain any details of our doctrine.

Evasive posts by answering legitimate questions with ad ridiculum may be fun but only add to your ballast of fallacious argumentation.

Proverbs 9:6
Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

The idea is that it is better to use what Our Divine Lord used. And to do as Our Divine Lord did.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

The idea is that it is better to use what Our Divine Lord used. And to do as Our Divine Lord did.

What a grandiose idea. Can we apply this to other areas of Worship, too? Let us start with apparel (Zephaniah 1:8).


Then we can go on to gathering Earthly riches (Matthew 6:19).



Do as our Lord did and discard all that or leave the community that fails to do so. Of course you will do as our Lord did! So I expect to see you soon taking a Fiat 500 to Ye Olde Vatican Gift Shoppe wielding a scourge of small cords, turn over some tables and saying some well-formulated arguments to the moneychangers.

As for the base grain utilized for wafer production, your reply does (as expected) not assess the actual question of giving us some certainty that Jesus shared bread made exclusively from wheat and not buckwheat or something else and if it was wheat, which variety is the one that carries His "essence"?

There are two wild einkorns, Triticum boeoticum Boiss. and T. urartu Thum. ex Gandil., and one domesticated einkorn, T. monococcum L. Numerous wild emmer wheats are known, the one that is most important for our purposes is T. dicoccum (Schrank) Schübl. Durum wheat, a kind of domesticated emmer, has the remarkably appropriate Latin name of T. durum L. Likewise, spelt is T. spelta Desf. Lastly, bread wheat is T. aestivum L.

Why do your superiors care? Perhaps because they have neglected some words of Jesus. Perhaps they should do as their Divine Lord did?

Matthew 6:25
Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Matthew 15:11
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Instead, you take one verse to rule you all, one detached verse to find all the innocents, one verse disregarding everything we've tried to tell you to bring them all in and in the darkness bind them. Jesus must be weeping.

Fiat lux.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[tomdstone]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

What a grandiose idea. Can we apply this to other areas of Worship, too? Let us start with apparel (Zephaniah 1:8).


Then we can go on to gathering Earthly riches (Matthew 6:19).



Do as our Lord did and discard all that or leave the community that fails to do so. Of course you will do as our Lord did! So I expect to see you soon taking a Fiat 500 to Ye Olde Vatican Gift Shoppe wielding a scourge of small cords, turn over some tables and saying some well-formulated arguments to the moneychangers.

As for the base grain utilized for wafer production, your reply does (as expected) not assess the actual question of giving us some certainty that Jesus shared bread made exclusively from wheat and not buckwheat or something else and if it was wheat, which variety is the one that carries His "essence"?
Why do your superiors care? Perhaps because they have neglected some words of Jesus. Perhaps they should do as their Divine Lord did?

Matthew 6:25
Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Matthew 15:11
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Instead, you take one verse to rule you all, one detached verse to find all the innocents, one verse disregarding everything we've tried to tell you to bring them all in and in the darkness bind them. Jesus must be weeping.

Fiat lux.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

LOLChange of subject?

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

True Christians™ know the difference. True Christians™ know Jesus is omnipotent. Catholics don't really get it. They think He can only do so much.

One thing they believe He can do - become bread and wine every time one of their priests babbles a bit in Latin.
One thing they believe He cannot do - keep the gluten out of the bread for Catholics with Celiac Disease, or miraculously prevent their bodies from reacting to the gluten.

This set the stage. Is it at all reasonable to claim that Jesus would not be present in products without gluten if He is at the same time omnipotent?

Last try.

Why is only a certain kind of bread suitable?
How do you know that, e.g., other ancient crops that can be processed into bread (such as buckwheat that has been cultivated in China and in the Middle East since 6000 BC; Ohnishi O .1998. Search for the wild ancestor of buckwheat III. The wild ancestor of cultivated common buckwheat, and of tatary buckwheat. Economic Botany. 52: 123–133), but contain no gluten are not suitable?

Evasive posts by answering legitimate questions with ad ridiculum may be fun but only add to your ballast of fallacious argumentation.

Firmly within the context of the well-formulated opening post. How do the Catholics know which grain or a mixture of them the home baker of Jesus used!

The idea is that it is better to use what Our Divine Lord used. And to do as Our Divine Lord did.

Implying i) that we should eat the same stuff that Jesus did (although we are not told if it was wheat) and ii) that we should do as our Lord tells us to do. OK. This can be answered albeit it is quite far from the focus of the discussion.

Can we apply this to other areas of Worship, too? Let us start with apparel (Zephaniah 1:8).

Then we can go on to gathering Earthly riches (Matthew 6:19).
---
As for the base grain utilized for wafer production, your reply does (as expected) not assess the actual question of giving us some certainty that Jesus shared bread made exclusively from wheat and not buckwheat or something else and if it was wheat, which variety is the one that carries His "essence"?

LOLChange of subject?

The subject of denying Jesus some skills was sidestepped by Mr. Stone by referring to doing things as Jesus did. Do you see why you have difficulties to be taken seriously? Jesus Himself utilized not only wheat but other grains and you try to gain a futile victory in a discussion by disregarding this well-known fact as follows:

John 6:9
There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many?

Barley has less guten than wheat. How many mg/g bread do you need gluten to make it compatible with Catholic Cannibalism? You should be able to give us an estimate as many gluten-free products also contain traces of these molecules. Are they not adequate?


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[tomdstone]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

This set the stage. Is it at all reasonable to claim that Jesus would not be present in products without gluten if He is at the same time omnipotent?

Firmly within the context of the well-formulated opening post. How do the Catholics know which grain or a mixture of them the home baker of Jesus used!

Implying i) that we should eat the same stuff that Jesus did (although we are not told if it was wheat) and ii) that we should do as our Lord tells us to do. OK. This can be answered albeit it is quite far from the focus of the discussion.



The subject of denying Jesus some skills was sidestepped by Mr. Stone by referring to doing things as Jesus did. Do you see why you have difficulties to be taken seriously? Jesus Himself utilized not only wheat but other grains and you try to gain a futile victory in a discussion by disregarding this well-known fact as follows:

John 6:9
There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many?

Barley has less guten than wheat. How many mg/g bread do you need gluten to make it compatible with Catholic Cannibalism? You should be able to give us an estimate as many gluten-free products also contain traces of these molecules. Are they not adequate?


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

Jesus said - Do this in remembrance of me -.

You want to do something else in remembrance of Him.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

Jesus said - Do this in remembrance of me -.

You want to do something else in remembrance of Him.

Yes, eat bread, drink wine. I was asking what kind of bread! That is what your superiors are trying to establish by stating that it has to contain gluten. Please answer the following questions by referring to the numbers:

1. Did Jesus eat only products of wheat (hint: No, as evidenced by John 6:9)?
2. How do you know the bread on the last supper was gluten-rich wheat?
3. What is the "this" that Jesus mentioned: The act of sharing a meal or a particular proportion of gluten molecules in the product?
4. Which one is the "this" in your opinion?
5. Can you answer the questions posed and not go meandering into denial of the actual issue?
6. Will Ezekiel's recipe (please see below) be unsuitable for your rituals if you leave out the gluten-containing wheat?
7. Are your wafers ineffective if you leave out the millet?

Ezekiel 4:9
Take thou also unto thee wheat, and barley, and beans, and lentiles, and millet, and fitches, and put them in one vessel, and make thee bread thereof, according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon thy side, three hundred and ninety days shalt thou eat thereof.



I am expecting actual answers to the actual questions.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[tomdstone]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

Yes, eat bread, drink wine. I was asking what kind of bread! That is what your superiors are trying to establish by stating that it has to contain gluten. Please answer the following questions by referring to the numbers:

1. Did Jesus eat only products of wheat (hint: No, as evidenced by John 6:9)?
2. How do you know the bread on the last supper was gluten-rich wheat?
3. What is the "this" that Jesus mentioned: The act of sharing a meal or a particular proportion of gluten molecules in the product?
4. Which one is the "this" in your opinion?
5. Can you answer the questions posed and not go meandering into denial of the actual issue?
6. Will Ezekiel's recipe (please see below) be unsuitable for your rituals if you leave out the gluten-containing wheat?
7. Are your wafers ineffective if you leave out the millet?

Ezekiel 4:9
Take thou also unto thee wheat, and barley, and beans, and lentiles, and millet, and fitches, and put them in one vessel, and make thee bread thereof, according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon thy side, three hundred and ninety days shalt thou eat thereof.



I am expecting actual answers to the actual questions.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

The Catholic Church does allow the use of unleavened bread which is certified as gluten free by the FDA because such bread will contain an extremely small infinitesimal amount of gluten. However, once the substance does not contain any gluten at all, it is not considered bread and therefore would not qualify as suitable for Communion.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

1. Did Jesus eat only products of wheat (hint: No, as evidenced by John 6:9)?
2. How do you know the bread on the last supper was gluten-rich wheat?
3. What is the "this" that Jesus mentioned: The act of sharing a meal or a particular proportion of gluten molecules in the product?
4. Which one is the "this" in your opinion?
5. Can you answer the questions posed and not go meandering into denial of the actual issue?
6. Will Ezekiel's recipe (please see below) be unsuitable for your rituals if you leave out the gluten-containing wheat?
7. Are your wafers ineffective if you leave out the millet?

1. ?????
2. ?????
3. ?????
4. ?????
5. ?????
6. ?????
7. ?????

The Catholic Church does allow the use of unleavened bread which is certified as gluten free by the FDA because such bread will contain an extremely small infinitesimal amount of gluten. However, once the substance does not contain any gluten at all, it is not considered bread and therefore would not qualify as suitable for Communion.

I can see no answer to any of the questions. You're just repeating the starting point of the thread by stating what your cult elders say but not justifying it. You obey the Catholic Church. It consists of men. We have another strategy.

Acts 5:29
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer