A Question to any Catholics that wonder in here

**Sacred Heart** · 10-22-2009, 08:17 PM

Re: A Question to any Catholics that wonder in here

Originally posted by Heathen_Basher View Post

Now here's the issue I have. If Mary could be conceived without original sin, that would mean that everyone could be conceived without it, and therefore God is intentionally and purposefully setting us up with an inclination towards sin. Is that the God you believe in? Since we have to be saved from our sins, but God allows us to be born in sin, that would mean sin is God's fault, not man's. We must conclude it is not possible for anyone to be born free from the stain of original sin.

First, with God, anything is possible (Luke 1:37), remember that as we go.

In a way you are correct in your assessment that God has set us up for sin. He allows us free-will. And you must remember that this is an act of His love for us. Choice. If God indeed loves us truly and unconditionally He would not force us to love him in return. Choice is an essential element in love. There is a saying, "If you love something, set it free, if it returns to you, it's meant to be." In the same way God set us all free because He loves us, and would never force us to love Him in return.

Being born in sin is also a choice of ours through Adam. It was not God's choice to have us be born in sin, but an act of our own. BUT, of course God can do anything He wants, and if that means saving Mary from original Sin and letting the rest of us have at it, then that's exactly what He will do. He is in full capacity to save Mary from sin, in the same way that we are all saved through the cross, before her birth. He is also at full capacity to deny this to everyone else.

Now, about free will. We say that man can sin because God grants us free will. Yet you also say that Mary could not sin, so perfect she was. Does this mean Mary had her free will taken away? Well, that would certainly undermine the idea of her accepting to be the Lord's servant, or her mediating to Jesus on mankind's behalf. If she did not have free will, is she just a robot/puppet that God led along?

She of course, must have free will. Otherwise the question imposed by Gabriel is ridiculous. If God did not want to ask, He would not have done so. If God wanted to simply tell Mary, "Faithful robot, bear my Son." Then that is exactly what He would of done. However, we see that He did indeed ask Mary if she would bear Jesus, therefore God is recognizing her free will.

Just because she did not sin, does not mean she simply didn't have the capacity. She had free will. She was simply perfect. She was better than you and I or anyone else for that matter. She never once sinned. We see in the question asked by Gabriel that Mary made choices just as you and I. However, she always made the correct choice.

If she does have free will, and also created unable to sin, that would mean God could create all of us with the ability to freely choose to never sin. Yet He doesn't. Why does God put this stumbling block before us if He doesn't have to?

While you may view your free will as a stumbling block, and rightly so, God sees it as His way to express His undying love for you. And as I have shown you, Mary indeed possessed the same free will as you and I, or else the question would not have been imposed. However, she was saved from Original Sin before she was born, because she had "found favor with God", and she continued to resist sin throughout her entire life, making her the perfect vessel to bear forth our Savior.

**Meek and Humble** · 10-22-2009, 11:35 PM

Re: A Question to any Catholics that wonder in here

Originally posted by Sacred Heart View Post

She of course, must have free will. Otherwise the question imposed by Gabriel is ridiculous.

What question? Reread Luke 1, please. Gabriel never asks her permission:

Luke 1: 31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

"Thou shalt" is a command, not a question. Of course, I don't expect a Catholic to know what the Bible says

I assume your priest told you that in order to make Mary sound better?

Just because she did not sin, does not mean she simply didn't have the capacity. She had free will. She was simply perfect. She was better than you and I or anyone else for that matter. She never once sinned. We see in the question asked by Gabriel that Mary made choices just as you and I. However, she always made the correct choice.

I suppose you missed the part in my post where I said the Bible clearly says no man is free of sin, that Mary paid a sin offering at the Temple, and that Jesus said the greatest person who ever lived was John the Baptist?

How about that according to Jesus, any person who obeys His word is as blessed as His mother, therefore meaning Mary is not above any other Christian?

**WWJDnow** · 10-22-2009, 11:57 PM

Re: A Question to any Catholics that wonder in here

Originally posted by Sacred Heart View Post

She was better than you and I or anyone else for that matter.

I knew it. You Catholics think Mary was better than Jesus. I do agree she was better than you are, but, let's face it, that's not very hard.

She never once sinned.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23

**Sacred Heart** · 10-24-2009, 01:52 AM

Re: A Question to any Catholics that wonder in here

Originally posted by Heathen_Basher View Post

"Thou shalt" is a command, not a question. Of course, I don't expect a Catholic to know what the Bible says

I assume your priest told you that in order to make Mary sound better?

Of course she had a choice, otherwise she would have been a simply robot. But in order for Christ to be fully human, he must be born of a woman. To be a woman and fully human, she must have free will. Even if she had no choice whatsoever to conceive the child or not, she in no way had to raise it and nurture it. She very well could have left him to die on the streets. However she did not. She chose to love it and care for it. You cannot deny that.

I see this in the same light as the ten commandments. "That shall not kill", this does not mean we simply cannot kill, it means it is not the will of God. However, we are all freely able to defy that Will. Always.

I suppose you missed the part in my post where I said the Bible clearly says no man is free of sin,

Jesus was man wouldn't you agree? Of course he was sinless, yet this verse when taken with your interpretation would include him. Thus your interpretation is immediately rendered false and we must look for other answers.

Reading the entire chapter of Romans 3 we see that is speaks of ACTS of sin, not original Sin:

None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands, no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one. Their throat is an open grave. They use their tongues to deceive. The venom of.asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness. (Rom. 3:10-14)

However, we clearly know that there are indeed exceptions to this rule. A baby in the womb cannot commit sin for it does not have the full knowledge of the act, not that much acting can be done inside the womb by an underdeveloped fetus. Yet, we know that God gave us souls and knew us in the womb. So it is possible to posses a soul and not sin. Jesus is an exception, unborn children are an exception, and anyone without the mental capacity and awareness of sin are an exception. And as we will see, Mary is an exception as well.

And [the angel Gabriel] came to [Mary] and said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!" But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God." (Luke 1:28-30)

Why was she troubled? Because the Angle gave her a new title."Hail, full of grace," translates as kaire, kekaritomene, in Greek. In biblical times, to address someone with "kaire" is usually found with another name or title: "Hail, king of the Jews" (John 19:3) and "Claudias Lysias, to his Excellency the governor Felix, greeting" (Acts 23:26).

Mary was troubled because her name was replaced with "Full of Grace". Of course you know the significance of names in Hebrew culture. It suggests something permanent about this person. For some other examples: Abram to Abraham (from "father" to "father of the multitudes") in Genesis 17:5, Saray to Sarah ("my princess" to "princess"), in Genesis 17:15 and Jacob to Israel ("supplanter" to "he who prevails with God") in Genesis 32:28.

Taking Abraham and Sarah as example, we see that their given titles gave a permanent idea to be associated with their names. (Isaiah 51:1-2, Romans 4:16-18). In such a way, this title given to Mary, "Full of Grace", entailed a permanent idea to be associated with her.

To go further, Luke used kekaritomene for the title given to Mary. This is the perfect past participle, not meaning that this has simply already happened (there is other Greek for that tense) but rather kekaritomene means that a previous event has resulted in the current state of being, "Full of Grace" as in, she has been, still is, and always will be (in a permanent sense, as in the other names given in the Bible) "Full of Grace".

"It is not that I have already taken hold of it or have already attained perfect maturity, but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it, since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ." (Phil 3:12)

This from the words of Paul, which we see in no way saw himself as "Full of Grace" and certainly not in a permanent sense. He wasn't full of grace, neither am I, and neither are you. We lack the grace that Mary was permanently "Full of".

Thus we see that Mary, being "Full of Grace" did not commit sin by any act of hers.

that Mary paid a sin offering at the Temple,

Why was Jesus baptized by John? It wasn't necessary either.

This offering was to expiate ritual impurity from the blood of childbirth, not any personal sin of Mary. If anything, this passage merely shows her devotion to her faith. Gabriel called her "Full of Grace".

and that Jesus said the greatest person who ever lived was John the Baptist?

The context of this verse clearly shows Jesus to only be speaking of prophets, "Then why did you go out? To see a prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet" (Matt 11:9)

Jesus is showing John's presedence over the other prophets, emaphasizing how it was he that is "my messenger ahead of you".

You must accept that Jesus was only speaking of Prophets, as He himself was born of a woman, and clearly He must be greater than John.

How about that according to Jesus, any person who obeys His word is as blessed as His mother, therefore meaning Mary is not above any other Christian?

We're gonna have to go into the Greek here again... Note the bold word:

"Blessed is the womb that carried you and the breasts at which you nursed.' [Jesus] replied, 'Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it." (Luke 11:27-28)

The Greek translation of the bold word is menoun. I would now like to quote a Protestant Scholar on HER interpretation of Luke 11:27-28 in her work, Greek Particles in the New Testament. Using her knowledge of Greek, she has reconstructed this verse to show how it would be read in the original Greek, "What you have said is true as far as it goes. But the blessedness of Mary does not consist simply in the fact of her relationship towards myself, but (menoun) in the fact that she shares in the blessedness of those who hear the word of God and keep it, and it is in this that true blessedness lies." Page 118.

**Meek and Humble** · 10-24-2009, 05:58 AM

Re: A Question to any Catholics that wonder in here

Oh good, I see you are no longer copying and pasting your stolen material, but rather putting it in your own words. (That still counts as plagiarism, of course, as you provide no references and present it as your original work, but hey, at least there's some more effort there

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9301fea3.asp )

Now, about your "points" (lol)

1) Let me ask you something, did Mary need Jesus as her Savior? She never committed any sins, right?

2) About Romans. Are you suggesting that Jesus is an ordinary man? No. There is no reason to consider Jesus as being amongst the list of sinful men, especially as the Bible specifically says He didn't sin (Hebrews 4:15). Now if Mary was such an extraordinary exception, I would think there would be mention of it.

3) About Jesus' baptism. Yes, it was not required, but the text actually acknowledges this as it was a peculiar incident. It does not note anything in Mary making a sin offering.

4) I see no reason to understand that passage as only referring to prophets. He says no man born of woman. This does not include Jesus, as the Bible specifically states His birth was not of natural means (Galatians 4:4

4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (MADE of a woman, not born of a woman).

5) Is it me, or does that unnecessarily long translation have the exact same meaning to what I was saying? Mary isn't blessed because she is the "Mother of God". She is blessed because she was obeys God, and she shares in this blessing equally with all others who do so.

**Sacred Heart** · 10-24-2009, 06:35 PM

Re: A Question to any Catholics that wonder in here

First I would like to point out that you have not addressed my most significant point being that Mary is permanently "Full of Grace".

[QUOTE=Heathen_Basher;414330]

1) Let me ask you something, did Mary need Jesus as her Savior? She never committed any sins, right?[QUOTE]

Everyone needs to be saved from sin. Mary was saved from sin before she was born. I have best heard it described as man walking through the woods and falls into a tiger trap (sin). Jesus comes and pulls the man out (saves him). Mary comes walking through the same wood, but Jesus stops her before she falls into the trap (saves her). It was a choice of God to save Mary from Original Sin before she was born.

2) About Romans. Are you suggesting that Jesus is an ordinary man? No. There is no reason to consider Jesus as being amongst the list of sinful men, especially as the Bible specifically says He didn't sin (Hebrews 4:15). Now if Mary was such an extraordinary exception, I would think there would be mention of it.

The Bible alone is not the only Word of God. Please see this other thread:

Why is the Bible the ONLY True Word of God? - The Landover Baptist Church Forum

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=1997&page=40

Catholics, Wiccans, Lutherans, Satanists, Mormons, and more!

However as I am now active on several threads, it make take me some time to respond to all posts, so don't freak out if I disappear for a couple days.

Correct me if I am wrong, but is there mention of sins committed by unborn babies and those with mental deficiencies? For they are an exception as well.

I would also say that the grant of the title "Full of Grace" shows that Mary was Full of Grace. This would imply that she is free of sin.

3) About Jesus' baptism. Yes, it was not required, but the text actually acknowledges this as it was a peculiar incident. It does not note anything in Mary making a sin offering.

But the bible never directly calls Mary a constant sinner either. Both of our interpretations could be offered for this verse and both could be accepted in the light of our individual perspectives.

4) I see no reason to understand that passage as only referring to prophets. He says no man born of woman. This does not include Jesus, as the Bible specifically states His birth was not of natural means (Galatians 4:4

4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (MADE of a woman, not born of a woman).

My bible here reads "born of woman, born under the law".

But regardless, it was from Mary whom fetal Jesus was nutured and developed and it was through her birth canal of which she passed. Everything that happened to you from the point of your conception within your mother, also happened to Jesus within Mary. Would you argue that your Mother merely "made" you and did not give birth to you?

5) Is it me, or does that unnecessarily long translation have the exact same meaning to what I was saying? Mary isn't blessed because she is the "Mother of God". She is blessed because she was obeys God, and she shares in this blessing equally with all others who do so.

I was merely pointing out that the passage did not mean that she was NOT blessed. Sorry for the confusion.

She was blessed however before she conceived. The first thing the angles said was "Hail, Full of Grace". She had always been full of grace, long before she became the mother of God.

The act of baby Jesus passing through Mary's birth canal did not make her blessed. She is the fullfilment of prophesies and the Arc of the New Covenant. It is fitting, not required but FITTING, that Mary be a sinless to bear forth Jesus Christ.

**Meek and Humble** · 10-24-2009, 08:01 PM

Re: A Question to any Catholics that wonder in here

Originally posted by Sacred Heart View Post

First I would like to point out that you have not addressed my most significant point being that Mary is permanently "Full of Grace".

He didn't call her "Full of Grace" except in blasphemous Catholic mistranslations:

Luke 1:28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

The Bible does not say she is "permanently full of grace". We have a mis-communication here, though. I'm not saying Mary is evil. I'm saying that she is not above anyone else. All Christians are full of grace.

John 1: 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Acts 4: 31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
32And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
33And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

Romans 1: 3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1: 3Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
4I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

Ephesians 2:5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Colossians 3: 15And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
17And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Titus 2: 10Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

1 Peter 4: 9Use hospitality one to another without grudging.
10As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
11If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

[QUOTE=Heathen_Basher;414330]

1) Let me ask you something, did Mary need Jesus as her Savior? She never committed any sins, right?

Everyone needs to be saved from sin. Mary was saved from sin before she was born. I have best heard it described as man walking through the woods and falls into a tiger trap (sin). Jesus comes and pulls the man out (saves him). Mary comes walking through the same wood, but Jesus stops her before she falls into the trap (saves her). It was a choice of God to save Mary from Original Sin before she was born.

Again, you portray a sadistic God who could save everyone before falling the trap, but chooses not to.

The Bible alone is not the only Word of God. Please see this other thread:

Why is the Bible the ONLY True Word of God? - The Landover Baptist Church Forum

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=1997&page=40

Catholics, Wiccans, Lutherans, Satanists, Mormons, and more!

However as I am now active on several threads, it make take me some time to respond to all posts, so don't freak out if I disappear for a couple days.

Translation: It will take me a while to come up with more Papist lies.

Correct me if I am wrong, but is there mention of sins committed by unborn babies and those with mental deficiencies? For they are an exception as well.

Nobody is innocent, not even babies.

Romans 9: 10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

And God hates retards.

I would also say that the grant of the title "Full of Grace" shows that Mary was Full of Grace. This would imply that she is free of sin.

Yes, but all Christians are free of sin, after they are saved:

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not. 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not. 3 John 11 He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God. All men have sinned, after they are born again they sin no more. There is no reason to believe your silly fantasy about Mary being "saved from sin" before she was born

But the bible never directly calls Mary a constant sinner either. Both of our interpretations could be offered for this verse and both could be accepted in the light of our individual perspectives.

Constant sinner, no. But she has sinned. Thus she is making a sin offering.

My bible here reads "born of woman, born under the law".

Well, that's what you get when you use a Satanic Bible.

But regardless, it was from Mary whom fetal Jesus was nutured and developed and it was through her birth canal of which she passed. Everything that happened to you from the point of your conception within your mother, also happened to Jesus within Mary. Would you argue that your Mother merely "made" you and did not give birth to you?

So let me get this clear: you think Jesus is a normal human and that Mary is His physical biological mother?

I was merely pointing out that the passage did not mean that she was NOT blessed. Sorry for the confusion.

Apology accepted. Keep 'em coming.

She was blessed however before she conceived. The first thing the angles said was "Hail, Full of Grace". She had always been full of grace, long before she became the mother of God.

http://www.carm.org/religious-moveme...e-and-luke-128
Mary, full of grace, and Luke 1:28

According to The Catholic Encyclopedia (TCE) under the topic of Hail Mary it says, "Hail (Mary) full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women", embodies the words used by the Angel Gabriel in saluting the Blessed Virgin (Luke, I, 28)." The Roman Catholic Church derives all sorts of teachings concerning Mary from the phrase "full of grace." Two of them are...

She was conceived without sin.
1. "...It was fitting that the mother of him in whom "the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily" should herself be "full of grace." She was, by sheer grace, conceived without sin..." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 722).
That she was redeemed from conception and was without sin.
1. "Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin, (CCC, 491)
2. "From among the descendants of Eve, God chose the Virgin Mary to be the mother of his Son. "Full of grace", Mary is "the most excellent fruit of redemption" (SC, 103): from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life," (CCC, 508).

Catholic.com says under "Full of Grace," that "These blessings included her role as the New Eve (corresponding to Christs role as the New Adam), her Immaculate Conception, her spiritual motherhood of all Christians, and her Assumption into heaven." As you can see, Mary is greatly exalted even to the point of having "spiritual motherhood of all Christians," whatever that means.
Also, since she has been so highly exalted, prayer is also offered to Mary. Catholics recite "The Hail Mary" which says, "Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen." Prayer should be offered to God alone, not to any creature no matter how blessed, including Mary.
As you can see, a great deal is derived from the phrase "full of grace." But, does the phrase justify such adoration and doctrinal proclamation? Can the Roman Catholic church rightfully derive so much from so little? In fact, is the phrase "full of grace" used of Mary in the Bible at all? The answers to these questions is, "No."
The Bible and "full of grace"

The phrase "full of grace" in Greek is "plaras karitos" and it occurs in only two places in the New Testament; neither one is in reference to Mary.

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth," (John 1:14).
"And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people," (Acts 6:8).

The first citation refers to Jesus who is obviously full of grace. Jesus is God in flesh, the crucified and risen Lord, who cleanses us from our sins. In the second citation it is Stephen who is full of grace. We can certainly affirm that Jesus was conceived without sin and remained sinless, but can we conclude this about Stephen as well? Certainly not. The phrase "full of grace" does not necessitate sinlessness by virtue of its use. In Stephen's case it signifies that he was "full of the Spirit and of wisdom," along with faith and the Holy Spirit (Acts 6:3, 5). But Stephen was a sinner. Nevertheless, where does the phrase "full of grace" come from regarding Mary?
The Latin Vulgate and other translations

The Latin Vulgate is the Latin translation of the Bible done by St. Jerome in the fourth century. It is here in Luke 1:28 that is found the unfortunate Latin translation which says "ave gratia plena "Hail full of grace.'" Remember, the New Testament was written in Greek, not Latin, but the Roman Church has derived its doctrine from the Latin translation, not the Greek original. Therefore, it constructed its doctrine on a false translation. Of course, it cannot correct itself since so much is invested in the worship, adoration, and prayer to Mary in the Roman Catholic Church and to recant of this false teaching would greatly lessen its credibility. Unfortunately, this means that millions of Catholics will continue to look to Mary for help, not Christ who is truly full of grace.
So what do the other translations say about Luke 1:28? Let's find out.

The Nestle Aland 26th edition, Greek New Testament Interlinear - "having gone into her he said rejoice one having been favored, the master is with you."
The NRSV English Greek Reverse Interlinear New Testament - And he came to her and said, "Greetings,favored one! The Lord is with you."
American Standard Version - "And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee."
English Standard Version - "And he came to her and said, Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!
Today's English Version - '"The angel came to her and said, “Peace be with you! The Lord is with you and has greatly blessed you!”
King James Version- "And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."
New American Standard Bible - "And coming in, he said to her, Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.
New International Version - "The angel went to her and said, Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.
New King James Version - "And having come in, the angel said to her, Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!
Revised Standard Version - "And he came to her and said, 'Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!'
New Revised Standard Version - And he came to her and said, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
The New Century Version - The angel came to her and said, “Greetings! The Lord has blessed you and is with you.”
New Living Translation - Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!'”
The Cambridge Paragraph Bible - And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, 'thou that art 'highly favoured, 'the Lord is with thee: 'blessed art thou among women.
The Holman Christian Standard Bible - "And the angel came to her and said, “Rejoice, favored woman! The Lord is with you."
International Standard Version - '"The angel'' came to her and said, “'Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you!"

What does the Greek say here for "highly favored one? It is the single Greek word kexaritomena and means highly favored, make accepted, make graceful, etc. It does not mean "full of grace" which is "plaras karitos" (plaras = full and karitos = Grace) in the Greek.

5923 χαριτόω (charitoō): vb.; Str 5487; TDNT 9.372—LN 88.66 show kindness graciously give, freely give (Eph 1:6); as a passive participle, subst., “one highly favored.”1
5487 χαριτόω [charitoo /khar·ee·to·o/] v. From 5485; TDNT 9:372; TDNTA 1298; GK 5923; Two occurrences; AV translates as “be highly favoured” once, and “make accepted” once. 1 to make graceful. 1a charming, lovely, agreeable. 2 to peruse with grace, compass with favour. 3 to honour with blessings.2

Therefore, we conclude that the Roman Catholic Church has manufactured far too much doctrine concerning Mary out of the erroneous translation of the Latin Vulgate Bible and that the RCC needs to recant its false teaching concerning Mary.
Conclusion

Mary was a very blessed woman. She was graced with the privilege of being able to bear the Son of God. We should never forget her high privilege in this respect. However, we must not elevate her to a level beyond that which is prescribed in Scripture. To do so is to be in error, the very error that is taught in the Roman Catholic Church.
We urge Roman Catholics not look to Mary. Instead, they should look to Jesus alone. He alone is the sinless one, the perfect one, the Lord, the mediator, the forgiver of our sins. It is he alone to whom we should appeal and trust for the forgiveness of our sins. We should not look to any creature, no matter how blessed that creature may be.

The act of baby Jesus passing through Mary's birth canal did not make her blessed. She is the fullfilment of prophesies and the Arc of the New Covenant. It is fitting, not required but FITTING, that Mary be a sinless to bear forth Jesus Christ.

Fitting why, because you say so? You claim that it was not by virtue of her being Jesus' mother that she was blessed. But you also say that she is blessed because she was conceived without sin because God wanted her to be Jesus' mother.

Mary is blessed because she obeyed God, just like everyone else, as per JESUS' WORD. She is not blessed because of some fairy tale about Immaculate Conception.

A Question to any Catholics that wonder in here

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