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  • #1

    Free Will and Christianity cannot coexist

    Omniscience vs. Human Free will. A Paradox.

    Omniscience: Perfect knowledge of past and future events.
    Free will: Freedom to choose between alternatives without external coercion.
    Paradox: Statements or events that have contradictory and inconsistent properties.

    Proposal:

    Christianity cannot claim that God is omniscient and also claim that humans have free will. The claims form a paradox, a falsehood.

    Reasoning:

    If God is omniscient then even before we are born God will have complete knowledge of every decision we are going to make.

    Any apparent choice we make regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior is predetermined. This must be true to satisfy the assertion that God is omniscient. Effectively we have no choice in the matter. What we think is free will is an illusion. Our choices have been coerced since we exist and act according to the will of God.

    Alternatively if human free will is valid, meaning that the outcome of our decisions is not pre-determined or coerced, then God cannot be omniscient, since he would not know in advance our decisions.

    Question:

    If God knows the decision of every individual, before they are born, regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior, then why does he create one set of individuals destined for heaven and another set destined for eternal damnation? This seems unjust, perverse and particularly evil.

    Conclusions:

    If God is omniscient then humans do not have free will (see argument above) and the apparent arbitrary choice of God to condemn many individuals to eternal damnation is evil. I.e. God does not possess the property of omni benevolence and is therefore not worth our attention.

    If humans have true free will then God cannot be omniscient (see argument above). If he is not omniscient then he also cannot be omnipotent since knowledge of the future is a prerequisite for total action. Without these abilities God can no longer be deemed a god ? i.e. God does not exist.

    If humans do not have free will then the choice of whether to choose Jesus as a savior or not makes total nonsense of Christianity since the choice is pre-determined and we are merely puppets at the hands of a discriminatory puppeteer.
    Lev.18:22
    Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

    Lev.20:13
    If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Free Will and Christianity cannot coexist

    Originally posted by Viscus89 View Post
    Omniscience vs. Human Free will.
    <snip>
    Lots of typing my friend. Not.

    Why do you hate Jesus?
    Psalm 81:10:
    I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt:
    open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Free Will and Christianity cannot coexist

      Originally posted by Wide-Open View Post
      Lots of typing my friend. Not.

      Why do you hate Jesus?
      He stole my bicycle, and I want it back.
      Lev.18:22
      Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

      Lev.20:13
      If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Free Will and Christianity cannot coexist

        Originally posted by Viscus89 View Post
        He stole my bicycle, and I want it back.
        One more comment like that and you'll be facing a Ban!!

        Sister Talitha

        Markswoman, Circumcisionist, Platinum Tither.


        HE took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha Cumi; which is,
        being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise!...Mark 5:41


        Comment

        • #5
          Re: Free Will and Christianity cannot coexist

          Originally posted by Viscus89 View Post
          He stole my bicycle, and I want it back.
          Everything you own - or don't own - belongs to JESUS anyway.

          You on the other hand stole words from someone else to make you look all smart & dandy.

          And you got caught red handed FOOL!

          Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not;
          Jeremiah 7:9
          Psalm 81:10:
          I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt:
          open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Free Will and Christianity cannot coexist

            Actually, I was a mindles...I mean, Christian for 14 years of my life, and that one post allowed me to see the ruse that religious belief is. Thought i might share!
            Lev.18:22
            Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

            Lev.20:13
            If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Free Will and Christianity cannot coexist

              Originally posted by Viscus89 View Post
              Actually, I was a mindles...I mean, Christian for 14 years of my life, and that one post allowed me to see the ruse that religious belief is. Thought i might share!
              Friend, are you telling us you are 15 now, and that you think stealing is the same as sharing ?

              If one post on the internets can completely shake your beliefs, I shudder at the thought of you browsing a Radio Shack catalogue.
              Psalm 81:10:
              I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt:
              open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Free Will and Christianity cannot coexist

                Originally posted by Wide-Open View Post
                Friend, are you telling us you are 15 now, and that you think stealing is the same as sharing ?

                If one post on the internets can completely shake your beliefs, I shudder at the thought of you browsing a Radio Shack catalogue.
                18, and one post that completely contradicts the Bible's teachings tends to do that for me.
                Lev.18:22
                Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

                Lev.20:13
                If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: Free Will and Christianity cannot coexist

                  Originally posted by Viscus89 View Post
                  18, and one post that completely contradicts the Bible's teachings tends to do that for me.
                  Do you happen to know the meaning of the word "gullible" ?
                  Psalm 81:10:
                  I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt:
                  open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Free Will and Christianity cannot coexist

                    Originally posted by Wide-Open View Post
                    Do you happen to know the meaning of the word "gullible" ?
                    Well, seeing as how you have yet to refute the argument, copy/pasted or not, I assumed you had no rebuttal for it, and instead, only ad hominems to try and save face. Prove me wrong? My name on those forums is Viscus, if you look through my posts, all I've ever said is for someone to prove my beliefs wrong and I'd accept their side, just like I did 4 years ago when I started reading scientific journals.
                    Lev.18:22
                    Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

                    Lev.20:13
                    If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: Free Will and Christianity cannot coexist

                      Originally posted by Viscus89 View Post
                      Well, seeing as how you have yet to refute the argument, copy/pasted or not, I assumed you had no rebuttal for it, and instead, only ad hominems to try and save face. Prove me wrong? My name on those forums is Viscus, if you look through my posts, all I've ever said is for someone to prove my beliefs wrong and I'd accept their side, just like I did 4 years ago when I started reading scientific journals.
                      Is pointing out that you are just a lazy copy/paste sodomite an "ad hominem"?

                      My face can't be saved. Have you seen my avatar ? However, my soul IS Saved(R). How about yours?

                      Would you want me to copy/paste a seminar on the virtues of the Mitsubishi TD05L turbo over the IHI VF23, or a lecture on suspension droop, asking you to comment?

                      Of course not. You'd think I was babbling.
                      Psalm 81:10:
                      I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt:
                      open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: Free Will and Christianity cannot coexist

                        Originally posted by Wide-Open View Post
                        Is pointing out that you are just a lazy copy/paste sodomite an "ad hominem"?

                        My face can't be saved. Have you seen my avatar ? However, my soul IS Saved®. How about yours?

                        Would you want me to copy/paste a seminar on the virtues of the Mitsubishi TD05L turbo over the IHI VF23, or a lecture on suspension droop, asking you to comment?

                        Of course not. You'd think I was babbling.
                        Actually, if the forums were based around cars, I would be debating away with you.

                        Maybe you seem to think that, since I didn't retype an already valid argument, that the argument is rendered null?

                        Again, until you actually address the argument I presented, I take it as you have no response to it, and in turn, you accepting it as truth.
                        Lev.18:22
                        Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

                        Lev.20:13
                        If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: Free Will and Christianity cannot coexist

                          Originally posted by Viscus89 View Post
                          Actually, if the forums were based around cars, I would be debating away with you.

                          Maybe you seem to think that, since I didn't retype an already valid argument, that the argument is rendered null?

                          Again, until you actually address the argument I presented, I take it as you have no response to it, and in turn, you accepting it as truth.
                          I most certainly do not! It's "logic" trying to debunk FAITH. That's never gonna work son. And it's not even your own logic, it's a half-assed attempt that you blatantly copied from some silly website.

                          And just be glad this isn't a car forum. You'd probably ask about "dumb valves" and the whooshing noise made by the WRC cars. And you'd be ridiculed!
                          Psalm 81:10:
                          I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt:
                          open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Re: Free Will and Christianity cannot coexist

                            *sigh*

                            Now that we've assessed Wide-Open couldn't debate his way out a paper bag, anyone else want to actually take a pop?
                            Lev.18:22
                            Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

                            Lev.20:13
                            If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Re: Free Will and Christianity cannot coexist

                              Originally posted by Viscus89 View Post
                              *sigh*

                              Now that we've assessed Wide-Open couldn't debate his way out a paper bag, anyone else want to actually take a pop?
                              You've just earned Infraction Points for Insulting Brother W-O.

                              Sister Talitha

                              Markswoman, Circumcisionist, Platinum Tither.


                              HE took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha Cumi; which is,
                              being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise!...Mark 5:41


                              Comment

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