[Sacha-DG]

Re: Do ALL creatures have souls?

Sacha-DG

The folk here at Landover have been patient with you so far but I feel that you do not know what you want. You are a lost soul threshing about in the wilderness, looking for Truth™.

What, for you - that is you personally, not others - would be proof of God’s existence? Once we know that we will be able to supply it.

Now, let’s say that you don’t believe that Bill Gates exists and it’s all a fairy tale and a conspiracy.

What proof would you require to show that Bill existed? You could see a TV documentary, but it could all be staged.

You can see his words in Microsoft Office, but – well, it could be written by people who had never seen him.

He could come to your house and give you a free copy of Excel, but you wouldn’t know for certain that it was really Bill Gates or someone who looks like the picture that you saw in the newspaper.

So – tell me and tell the Brothers and Sisters of Landover – what proof do you require?

Amen

Bathfire E

Yes, but for what reason would they be trying to deceive me? I would still purchase and use Microsoft products regardless of whether Bill Gates was the owner, and Microsoft would not stand to gain from deceiving me.
I do not spend my life following and basing all my knowledge upon Bill Gates' word, as Christians do upon the Bible, so if he turned out not to be real, I would not be at any loss.
If I spent my life worshipping God on the other hand, not listening to the music I love because its 'Satanic', supressing my desire for knowledge, paying money to the Church, only ever sleeping with one woman and missing out on some of the experiences of life, and he turned out not to be real, then I would be at a huge loss. I will have wasted my entire life. I need to be 100% sure before I make a sacrifice that big.

To be sure of God's existence, he would need to present himself to me, or the public as a whole, and infallaby demonstrate his omnipotence, omniscience and omnibenevolence. Only then will I be convinced. From what I read on this forum, your God is not someone who I want to worship. He seems to be greedy and malevolent.
But you may ask; 'What can be gained by the church by me following them?'. Money and power. The American government is the most powerful force in the world. George Bush is now the most powerful man on the planet, and he is a Christian. Would America vote for a non-Christian president? I don't think so.

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: Do ALL creatures have souls?

But you may ask; 'What can be gained by the church by me following them?'. Money and power. The American government is the most powerful force in the world. George Bush is now the most powerful man on the planet, and he is a Christian. Would America vote for a non-Christian president? I don't think so.

Any country that elected a non-Christian leader does so at it's own peril. Take a look around the world.

God rewards us for our Righteousness, and severly punishes those who turn their backs on Him.

2 Samuel 22:21
The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness: according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.

2 Chronicles 15:7
Be ye strong therefore, and let not your hands be weak: for your work shall be rewarded.

Psalm 31:23
O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.

I say again, The United States is the single most powerful and wealthy nation in the world. QED, God exists.

[Sacha-DG]

Re: Do ALL creatures have souls?

Any country that elected a non-Christian leader does so at it's own peril. Take a look around the world.

God rewards us for our Righteousness, and severly punishes those who turn their backs on Him.

2 Samuel 22:21
The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness: according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.

2 Chronicles 15:7
Be ye strong therefore, and let not your hands be weak: for your work shall be rewarded.

Psalm 31:23
O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.

I say again, The United States is the single most powerful and wealthy nation in the world. QED, God exists.

God's existence is not a valid conclusion of any of those premises.
My point was that the Christian church uses its followers to gain money and power. What were you saying before about 'tithe', and paying money to the church?

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: Do ALL creatures have souls?

God's existence is not a valid conclusion of any of those premises.
My point was that the Christian church uses its followers to gain money and power. What were you saying before about 'tithe', and paying money to the church?

Jesus commands that we all Tithe. that isn't my idea, it is HIS commandment.

Mark 12:41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. Mark 12:42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. Mark 12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: Mark 12:44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

You see? Even the poor are expected to give their fair share (everything the own). That money is used to spread the Good News about Jesus all over the world. True Christian™ Pastors such as myself are penniless, humble servants of the Lord.

Learjet fuel isn't free you know.

[Sacha-DG]

Re: Do ALL creatures have souls?

Jesus commands that we all Tithe. that isn't my idea, it is HIS commandment.

Mark 12:41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. Mark 12:42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. Mark 12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: Mark 12:44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

You see? Even the poor are expected to give their fair share (everything the own). That money is used to spread the Good News about Jesus all over the world. True Christian™ Pastors such as myself are penniless, humble servants of the Lord.

Learjet fuel isn't free you know.

If the money is invested in gaining more followers, it is evident where the power comes from, is it not? Is not this power now used to control more money, war, oil?

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: Do ALL creatures have souls?

If the money is invested in gaining more followers, it is evident where the power comes from, is it not? Is not this power now used to control more money, war, oil?

Mr. Atheist sir, you give our humble little church far too much credit. Just because Pastor Deacon Fred sits on the Board of Haliburton and a dozen other even larger conglomorates that unsaved scum like you have never heard of, it doesn't follow that Christianity is somehow responsible for controlling everything in the world.

That is God's job.

[SalvationSeeker]

Re: Do ALL creatures have souls?

I meant vocal cords as in a form of complex communication, just like sign language.

You're more ignorant that I thought. Do you even know what vocal cords are? They are your 'voicebox', as it were. They are what allow humans the capability of complex vocal communication and expression. Most animals do not have vocal cords capable of this and as such are not able to communicate with each other as accurately as humans are. They are able to communicate on a basic level, but it comes nowhere near the scope of the human vocal cords.

Ever considered that the fact they can't communicate on anything but a basic level is an indicator of anything else than bad vocal cords?
Probably not, you've made up your mind for the "reason" already and now you're out to try and "prove" your theory, instead of trying to find out what is actually true.

And as you said above: sign languages can be just as complex.
And such would be entirely physically capable for many animals, yet NONE of them have it.

So you're contradicting yourself and only beating around the bush to try and cover up the fact that you go no case..
But then, what else is new?

Everything else they don't do? Like what? Talk about and discuss things? Build things? Insufficient physical capabilities to do so, quite frankly.

You seem to be actually claiming that animals are as smart as us?
They obviously can't do that because they're too stupid, and that is because they don't have a soul, and thus can't think.

I hope you know that not even those monkey-worshipping scientisits agree with you..
And that is why you're pulling things out of your behind here, you have neither science nor the Bible on you side.
Only your own say-so.

Prove it.

First off,
Ockhams razor. The most obvious answer is usually the correct one.
You however assume they can't do these things for some other diffuse reason:
You're unable to point out this reason and talk about some kind of "Insufficent physical capabilities" in the broad sense, as if animals were all anatomically identical or something..
But the easiest solution, and the only logical of the these two, is that they're too stupid.

The answer is, of course (and even backed up by the science you claim to love so much) that they can't because they are TOO STUPID.

Humans are essentially ruled by basic impulses too. If you couldn't read a Bible, would you fast over lent? Of course not, because you' have no reason to.

So what impulse caused me to read it?
What impulse causes me to follow it? What impulse causes me to believe in God?
Because according to your "logic" there is no reason to.

What a FOOL you are.

[narrowpathy]

Re: Do ALL creatures have souls?

As far as animal souls go, all this twittering about vocal chords is beside the point:

Re:5:13: “And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever”

Now you will know that St John The Divine is as trustworthy a man as you can get. If he reckons that there are creatures in heaven, then that’s good enough for me.

Amen

Bathfire E

Those creatures that are in Heaven, were they created/born in Heaven, or were they converted, baptised and ascended to Heaven?
Have they lived there always or they live there in the afterlife?
Moreover, those creatures, are they all angels or are there some animals amongst them?
Are angels humanoids or are they animals?

[Nobar King]

Re: Do ALL creatures have souls?

God made the animals, right? He must love them, because they continue to reproduce and populate the earth. God even commanded Noah to build an ark so they would be saved from the flood. He didn't tell Noah to build an ark to save HUMANS, did he?

There are a lot of animals, though. God doesn't care for them all equally; some species' existence is endandered. How much do you think he cares for the California condor? Or polar bears? If polar bears were his favorite, don't you think we'd be entering another ice age?

Why would god have animals in heaven? It's obviously not for worshipping Jesus. The butterflies and songbirds are there to please the souls who have ascended to heaven.

Why else would a dog be found guarding the gates of hell? Pits of snakes and aligators, evil spiders, wolves and badgers, these are the beasts that you will find if you are not in love with Christ. I imagine they have ants, maggots, and mosquitos there, too.

[Sacha-DG]

Re: Do ALL creatures have souls?

Ever considered that the fact they can't communicate on anything but a basic level is an indicator of anything else than bad vocal cords?
Probably not, you've made up your mind for the "reason" already and now you're out to try and "prove" your theory, instead of trying to find out what is actually true.

Identifying the parts of the body that allows us to do something is clearly the first step?
Why can't a fish walk like a human?
First we look at what enables a human to walk: Our legs.
Then we look at the difference in the anatomy of a fish and a human. A fish does not have legs, like a human. Therefore, the fish cannot walk like a human.
Because it doesn't have a soul? No, because it doesn't have legs.

Now let's look at a lion.
What part of our body physically enables us to talk (Of course the brain sends the information here)? That would be our vocal cords, which vibrate in order to modulate the flow of air expelled from the lungs during phonation.
If one was to cut open the throat of a lion and take a look at these vocal cords, you would find that they are not as complex as that of a human.

And as you said above: sign languages can be just as complex.
And such would be entirely physically capable for many animals, yet NONE of them have it.

Wrong.
Bees, whales, birds and even types of squid have been observed communicating with one another visually and/or vocally. However we cannot know how complex this communication is due to the fact that as we are not able to understand it, we may perceive acute changes as minor imperfections in the communication or vice versa, just as someone might stutter during speech.
Also, certain apes have been trained to use human sign language, which shows they are totally capabl of it.

You seem to be actually claiming that animals are as smart as us?
They obviously can't do that because they're too stupid, and that is because they don't have a soul, and thus can't think.

They can't be smart because they are stupid and therefore don't have a soul and can't think? Wow. That's a fantastic argument. You should publish that.

I hope you know that not even those monkey-worshipping scientisits agree with you..

I've never heard of a scientist who worships monkies.

First off,
Ockhams razor. The most obvious answer is usually the correct one.
You however assume they can't do these things for some other diffuse reason:
You're unable to point out this reason and talk about some kind of "Insufficent physical capabilities" in the broad sense, as if animals were all anatomically identical or something..
But the easiest solution, and the only logical of the these two, is that they're too stupid.

See the thing is, I said prove it. Once again, typical theist has chosen the easy way out. Instead of trying to prove it, you just put it down to something we don't know.
Why can't animals talk? "I don't know, let's just say they're just too stupid."
How was the universe created? "I don't know, let's just put it down to something beyond our understanding and have done with it."
How were we created? "I don't know, let's just put it down to something beyond our understanding and have done with it."
Why does this milk taste funny? "I don't know, let's just put it down to something beyond our understanding and have done with it."
Ockam's razor is about as truthful as Sod's law.

The answer is, of course (and even backed up by the science you claim to love so much) that they can't because they are TOO STUPID.

3 pages into the thread, you still have yet to find any evidence or explanation of this, other than you saying they are not smart.


[quot]So what impulse caused me to read it?
What impulse causes me to follow it? What impulse causes me to believe in God?
Because according to your "logic" there is no reason to.
[/quote]
a) You were probably forced to read it, had it shoved down your throat all your life, were brainwashed or tricked into reading it, read it out of curiosity or read it in the selfish hope of being able to go to heaven.
b) Greed and laziness cause you to believe in God.
c) That's the point I've been making all this time. Logically, there is no reason to believe in God. At last you finally catch on.

[see_the_light]

Re: Do ALL creatures have souls?

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Matthew 15:16

Does that mean that animals have souls? What about plants? Do they have souls, too?
Will unconverted animals AND plants go to Hell?
Will Satan rape whales trees with his razor-sharp tallywhacker? and trees too? and mushrooms?

I guess HE meant that the disciples should also talk to gooks and chinks nigras and even women.

But I wait for the pastors to correct me if I'm wrong

PRAISE THE LORD!