Do ALL creatures have souls?

[SalvationSeeker]

Re: Do ALL creatures have souls?

However you make a fair point about religions and proving points, but that comes back to vocal cords.

No, it doesn't..
Or are you saying a mute person can't make a point now?

What could a lion prove by fasting? It couldn't tell anyone why it was fasting anyway.

You're even more ignorant than I thought..
Are you seriously claiming lions can't communicate with each other?
Or that if it felt like making a protest or a point, it had to be communicated to HUMANS instead of their fellow lions?

Fact is:
Lions don't make protests or points cause they can't.
Same with everything else they don't do.

Humans might believe that an omnipotent being commands them to fast for however long, but I've no doubt that a lion would find this stupid.

Oh, really?
See, animals can't even make any plans for what to do tomorrow.. They can't even think ahead.
So there is no way they could even begin to grasp such a complex idea.

And why?
Cause they can't think at all, but are ruled by impulses instead of a soul. (They don't have one.)


Are you some kind of wiccan fool that idolizes animals as some kind of "superior-beings"?
Cause you sure act like one..

[Enigmatic Harpo Marx]

Re: Do ALL creatures have souls?

although society forbids them to do so in a similar manner to that of a lion.

And the fact that we can form societies with standards doesn't prove the point that our mental abilities out do that of a lion's?

It is possible that lions have brains equally as devloped as ours, but their physical form resricts their demostration of it.

No it's not. You speak like measuring the capacity and development of a brain is something mysterious and beyond our capabilities. News Flash: it's not. Ever hear of CAT scans or PET scans? We actually have the brain quite well mapped.

There are lots of people who fast for religious reasons, some people even willingly starve to death just to make a point.
You're obviously only talking out of your behind here, making stuff up as you go along.

Exactly my point. I think you should listen to SalvationSeeker on this one Sacha. Man can overcome his natural urges to achieve something higher than instant gratification.

Here's a compromise, Sacha. I'll add animals to that statement when you bring me footage of a lion at a zoo foregoing his dinner until he, and the rest of the lions at said zoo, get better housing quality.

[Sacha-DG]

Re: Do ALL creatures have souls?

There are lots of people who fast for religious reasons, some people even willingly starve to death just to make a point.
You're obviously only talking out of your behind here, making stuff up as you go along.

I'm not making anything up good sir. I take offence to your statement and I daresay you'd do well to hear me out first.
However you make a fair point about religions and proving points, but that comes back to vocal cords. What could a lion prove by fasting? It couldn't tell anyone why it was fasting anyway. Humans might believe that an omnipotent being commands them to fast for however long, but I've no doubt that a lion would find this stupid.

[SalvationSeeker]

Re: Do ALL creatures have souls?

Yes, but lions have to exercise in order to eat, which helps them to keep fit, and their social climate doesn't dictate that they must be slim to increase chances of finding a mate. A man will diet to keep fit or lose weight, in order to become more attractive in the eyes of others.

There are lots of people who fast for religious reasons, some people even willingly starve to death just to make a point.
You're obviously only talking out of your behind here, making stuff up as you go along.

[Sacha-DG]

Re: Do ALL creatures have souls?

That is a very narrow way of looking at the human mind. You say that when man is hungry it eats but you overlook the fact that there are men who diet or fast. Have you ever seen a lion diet or fast Sacha?

Yes, but lions have to exercise in order to eat, which helps them to keep fit, and their social climate doesn't dictate that they must be slim to increase chances of finding a mate. A man will diet to keep fit or lose weight, in order to become more attractive in the eyes of others.

Then you go onto say that when an animal has to defecate it will and so will a human. But have you noticed that animals have a tendancy to defecate where the stand (hell I've watch cows drop feces right into their own water troughs) but humans tend to have a little more sefl-control (and forsight) than to drop their pants and answer the call of nature whenever the moment takes them.

although society forbids them to do so in a similar manner to that of a lion.

I made that point.

I could go on with every example you give, but I think I've made my point clear enough. I will leave with one thought though. Do you believe that animals have the innate mental capacity to pose questions such as "Who am I?" "Where did I come from?" "Why am I here?", and if you think they do then maybe you can answer how it is that they have this ability while at the same time having brains that are not as developed as our own.

Posing that question is not necassarily due to a large mental capacity. Man can do far more complex things with his mind, such as complex arithmetic and all of the things we see in modern science.
A lion's body is perfect for chasing and catching prey, climbing trees etc., whereas a human's body (opposable thumbs, vocal cords, standing upright) allows us to better demonstrate our mental capacity through more complex vocal communication and transcription.
It is possible that lions have brains equally as devloped as ours, but their physical form resricts their demostration of it.

[Enigmatic Harpo Marx]

Re: Do ALL creatures have souls?

Every animal, including humans, has the instinct to survive. When the lion is hungry, it will eat. When a human is hungry, they will eat. When a lion needs to defacate, it shall. And so shall a human, although society forbids them to do so in a similar manner to that of a lion.
A lion will reproduce, as will humans. When scared, a lion will fight or take flight (metaphorically). As will a human, although a human may also freeze or faint, as a meercat might do.
When it rains, a Lion will take shelter, as will a human.
My point is that animals share the same fundamental lifestyle, and therefore must share sufficient psychological traits to conclude that animals feel emotion or have a 'soul', just as humans do.

That is a very narrow way of looking at the human mind. You say that when man is hungry it eats but you overlook the fact that there are men who diet or fast. Have you ever seen a lion diet or fast Sacha? I sure as Hell haven't. Then you go onto say that when an animal has to defecate it will and so will a human. But have you noticed that animals have a tendancy to defecate where the stand (hell I've watch cows drop feces right into their own water troughs) but humans tend to have a little more sefl-control (and forsight) than to drop their pants and answer the call of nature whenever the moment takes them.

I could go on with every example you give, but I think I've made my point clear enough. I will leave with one thought though. Do you believe that animals have the innate mental capacity to pose questions such as "Who am I?" "Where did I come from?" "Why am I here?", and if you think they do then maybe you can answer how it is that they have this ability while at the same time having brains that are not as developed as our own.

[Sacha-DG]

Re: Do ALL creatures have souls?

Every animal, including humans, has the instinct to survive. When the lion is hungry, it will eat. When a human is hungry, they will eat. When a lion needs to defacate, it shall. And so shall a human, although society forbids them to do so in a similar manner to that of a lion.
A lion will reproduce, as will humans. When scared, a lion will fight or take flight (metaphorically). As will a human, although a human may also freeze or faint, as a meercat might do.
When it rains, a Lion will take shelter, as will a human.
My point is that animals share the same fundamental lifestyle, and therefore must share sufficient psychological traits to conclude that animals feel emotion or have a 'soul', just as humans do.

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: Do ALL creatures have souls?

Well, I don't know. The naturalist Peter Matthiessen found rhinoceros footprints, captured in the hot ash of an eruption, high on the slopes of an African volcano. And of course Hemingway found the frozen carcass of a leopard far above the treeline on a case of Tusker beer -- I mean, Hemingway was on the beer and the leopard was on Mount Kilimanjaro.

What were these animals doing? Presumably they went onto the high mountain of their own free will, for there's no instinct for either species to become alpinists.

And neither rhinos nor leopards are known to wear lederhosen.

The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest. Isaiah 34:14

I confess, this matter baffles me. But that's not surprising. I am also baffled by complicated things like paperclips and Tupperware and zippers.

~~ OEJ

[Enigmatic Harpo Marx]

Re: Do ALL creatures have souls?

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Matthew 15:16

Does that mean that animals have souls? What about plants? Do they have souls, too?
Will unconverted animals AND plants go to Hell?
Will Satan rape whales trees with his razor-sharp tallywhacker? and trees too? and mushrooms?

Maybe the difference is that man has free will. A whale is going to do what whales do just as a tree will do what a tree will, but who can say what a man will do. We have the talent of self perception which seems to be exclusive to ourselves and since we can percieve ourselves we can decide how we wish to percieve ourselves; as a follower of God or as something else. In this case, we can say that while all creatures have souls only man can decide what to do with his and that's the whole point of christianity, right? Making sure people give there souls to God? Animal souls become irrelevent at that point.

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: Do ALL creatures have souls?

Hard question, Narrowpathy. In BAB's thread on bacteria we noted the difficulty of bringing the Gospel to microscopic creatures with no ears or eyes.

I think (but so far this is conjecture) that all creatures have souls but only man -- and, presumably, man's soul -- was made in God's image. Offhand I can't think of any scripture which says animals shall be brought up to Heaven nor dashed into the Fiery Pit, so perhaps animal souls are not immortal.

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him? Ecclesiastes 3:19-22

The third of these three verses, taken alone, implies that the soul of man is destined for Heaven, and the beast remains in the Earth after death.


But it's obvious here that the author of Ecclesiastes was taking a false view -- a God-denying view -- in order to demonstrate its falsity. So that third verse is not to be taken literally.

~~ OEJ

[narrowpathy]

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Matthew 15:16

Does that mean that animals have souls? What about plants? Do they have souls, too?
Will unconverted animals AND plants go to Hell?
Will Satan rape whales trees with his razor-sharp tallywhacker? and trees too? and mushrooms?