[Red Army]

Re: How to make an atheist cry

Hello red army,

Stalin was a communist, arguing he was not makes you look a bit silly. Killing people that do not agree with you is a part of the human being you say, I tend to disagree. I think it takes a special kind of idiot to think that it is permissible or that it is indoctrination that makes people believe it is ok to kill someone, not for self defence but just because you feel like doing so, or have been told to do so.

The essence of communism is internationalism, and Stalin betrayed it by destroying the Komintern and replacing it with the Kominform.


All killing are done in self defense. The massacre of Krondstadt was done to prevent a foreign invasion. The end justifies the mean. The gulags were to defend the personal power of Stalin, so the end does not justifies the mean.


I guess the Christians have more in common with me than you, Roland: they know that some killings are justified because there is a greater cause. They of course will differ on the cause, and I will not try to change them.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: How to make an atheist cry

So if a communist country has some success is because it is not communist, but if they have not success is because they are.


Something is wrong with that line of thinking.

I didn't get much past the observation. None of them were successful. The extent to which they are now prosperous is the extent to which they've ceased being communist. That's an empirical datum. I still don't want any, and see no need for theoretical analysis.

[Red Army]

Re: How to make an atheist cry

Hello Red,

That line of thinking is quite right. Communists tend to make things worse, that is the reason why there are no successful communist countries. It´s quite the opposite: communists have a reputation of destroying wealth, countries and human lives.

Please tell me all about the wealth of the peasants and workers in the Russian Empire before the Soviet Union, and in China before the Mao uprising.


There is a reason those two nations became world powers. It starts with a big "C".


And of course, Batista's Cuba was for sure a paradise. For anyone but the Cubans.


Those nations cannot survive, because internationalism is lacking. They are condemned to die as foretold by Trotsky in "The Permanent Revolution" and "In Defense of Marxism". So yes, we have an explanation for the rise an fall of each one of those nations, wrote before 1940.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: How to make an atheist cry

From chapter 4 of The Communist Manifesto:

Section II [not suitable reading for Pastors' wives or fiancées] has made clear the relations of the Communists to the existing working-class parties, such as the Chartists in England and the Agrarian Reformers in America.

The Communists fight for the attainment of the immediate aims, for the enforcement of the momentary interests of the working class; but in the movement of the present, they also represent and take care of the future of that movement. In France, the Communists ally with the Social-Democrats against the conservative and radical bourgeoisie, reserving, however, the right to take up a critical position in regard to phases and illusions traditionally handed down from the great Revolution.

The yellow bits highlight my point. By focusing on immediate aims and momentary interests, by operating in the movement of the present a restrictive world view necessarily develops. That may be a good thing, after all in order to identify the immediate aims of the working class someone need to elicit opinions and aspirations and operate in an immediate and focused way to arrive at any collective interest to be pursued.

When a visitor arrives to sell me a new vacuum cleaner he needs to be focused. I would not be interested in a chemical analysis of the soil in my garden or a soliloquy on the merits of arctic wood lice. He can demonstrate the vacuum cleaner, answer my questions, that's it. He doesn't need any more enquiring a spirit than to know those things to do his job. Similarly the monitor I outlined, he doesn't need to look beyond "what does the proletariat want right now" to do his job.

The man who designs and manufactures the vacuum cleaner needs more information. He'd need to know about electrical circuits and developments in vacuum pumps, maybe a weekend junket to learn about lightweight ceramics; he could still be the salesman though but if a vacuum cleaner weighed less that's as far as I'd take it.

Later on I could read about ceramics-in-vacuum-technology if I wanted to but I read The Communist Manifesto instead. The people who ran communist administrations were very doctrinaire, seeing the future as an altered present, different time co-ordinates, everything else the same. They were from the monitor caste. Food would be an immediate requirement. So they produce food. Then they find that transport is deficient. The senior figures running the big picture saw it as an altered small picture, the source of their data. The time co-ordinates being the same but the geographical boundaries expanded. Surely it would be better to have more direct involvement of the workers in that case? And it proved to be. Their prime objective however was not to adjust local food production but to get rid of the communist system altogether.

As long as the immediate appetites of a majority are taken as axiomatic in formulating policy, no robust policy can develop. Development requires looking outside one's own model.

To maintain the fantasy of communism so many must lose for the few to gain. False gods inside palatial walls could see nothing else.

[Red Army]

Re: How to make an atheist cry

From chapter 4 of The Communist Manifesto:


The yellow bits highlight my point. By focusing on immediate aims and momentary interests, by operating in the movement of the present a restrictive world view necessarily develops. That may be a good thing, after all in order to identify the immediate aims of the working class someone need to elicit opinions and aspirations and operate in an immediate and focused way to arrive at any collective interest to be pursued.

When a visitor arrives to sell me a new vacuum cleaner he needs to be focused. I would not be interested in a chemical analysis of the soil in my garden or a soliloquy on the merits of arctic wood lice. He can demonstrate the vacuum cleaner, answer my questions, that's it. He doesn't need any more enquiring a spirit than to know those things to do his job. Similarly the monitor I outlined, he doesn't need to look beyond "what does the proletariat want right now" to do his job.

The man who designs and manufactures the vacuum cleaner needs more information. He'd need to know about electrical circuits and developments in vacuum pumps, maybe a weekend junket to learn about lightweight ceramics; he could still be the salesman though, if a vacuum cleaner weighed less that's as far as I'd take it.

Later on I could read about ceramics-in-vacuum-technology if I wanted to but I read The Communist Manifesto instead. The people who ran communist administrations were very doctrinaire, seeing the future as an altered present, different time co-ordinates, everything else the same. They were from the monitor caste. Food would be an immediate requirement. So they produce food. Then they find that transport is deficient. The senior figures running the big picture saw it as an altered small picture, the source of their data. The time co-ordinates being the same but the geographical boundaries expanded. Surely it would be better to have more direct involvement of the workers in that case? And it proved to be. Their prime objective however was not to adjust local food production but to get rid of the communist system altogether.

As long as the immediate appetites of a majority are taken as axiomatic in formulating policy, no robust policy can develop. Development requires looking outside one's own model.

To maintain the fantasy of communism so many must lose for the few to gain. False gods inside palatial walls could see nothing else.

I really don't understad the relationship between the Communist Manifesto (which is not fully Communist and it was later developed into real Communism by Lenin in "What is to be done") and vacuum cleaners.


But if you need a vacuum cleaner, I can recommend you to buy a high-end chinese one. Made by a communist worker in a communist country. They are good, reliable and will clean your house in no time.

[Red Army]

Re: How to make an atheist cry

The Communists fight for the attainment of the immediate aims, for the enforcement of the momentary interests of the working class; but in the movement of the present, they also represent and take care of the future of that movement

The yellow bits highlight my point. By focusing on immediate aims and momentary interests, by operating in the movement of the present a restrictive world view necessarily develops. That may be a good thing

One more thing. The second part of the sentence says that Communism focus in the future so you have chosen the wrong quote.


But, focusing in the future is bad according to your book:


Matthew 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: How to make an atheist cry

I really don't understad the relationship between the Communist Manifesto (which is not fully Communist and it was later developed into real Communism by Lenin in "What is to be done") and vacuum cleaners.


But if you need a vacuum cleaner, I can recommend you to buy a high-end chinese one. Made by a communist worker in a communist country. They are good, reliable and will clean your house in no time.

It was just an example. A ducted system renders vacuum cleaner salesmen superfluous.

Although not in any way connected with my rejection of communism, which requires only observation, I noticed that Engels seemed to be more of the mover and shaker. Throughout this period what you see as improvements were being implemented by enlightened factory owners. They had some interesting ideas about education for example. But this was home grown in parallel with the industrial revolution. Progress did not come from European dilettantes but from senior aristocrats, Shaftesbury, and vested interests, Owen.

They could see beyond an immediate horizon. Communists leaders could not.

People inventing vacuum cleaners would need to do that too or go broke. Their salesmen would not need that ability.

__________________
OWEN: 1771-1858
SHAFTESBURY: 1801-1885
COMMUNIST MANIFESTO: 1848

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: How to make an atheist cry

But I'm embracing the killings, just not all of them, señorita Dolores.

Señora; Barriga is my husband's name.

This is not a suitable place to discuss why Kronstadt is a good masacre, while Gulags were wrong.

Personally, I don't think that the words "good" and "massacre" fit well together in a sentence.

So if a communist country has some success is because it is not communist, but if they have not success is because they are.

Well, if we talk about China, the political system there falls somewhere between oligarchy and despotism with a strong emphasis on slave labor. I don't really see much communism there, except for the name and the flag.

Please tell me all about the wealth of the peasants and workers in the Russian Empire before the Soviet Union,

Based on what I hear from some friends from Russia, about the same as it is now.

and in China before the Mao uprising.

Based on the best available data, probably somewhat better than it is now.

And of course, Batista's Cuba was for sure a paradise. For anyone but the Cubans.

I have to give you this one. Cuba before Castro was definitely the best brothel that the US ever had!

Those nations cannot survive, because internationalism is lacking. They are condemned to die as foretold by Trotsky in "The Permanent Revolution" and "In Defense of Marxism". So yes, we have an explanation for the rise an fall of each one of those nations, wrote before 1940.

For a self-proclaimed communist, you need to read more of Antonio Gramsci. Nationalism is not going anywhere; that was true when Gramsci wrote about it, rotting in prison under Mussolini's rule, and it is equally true now.

Overall, I give you a C+. Your argumentation is satisfactory but far from excellent.

[Red Army]

Re: How to make an atheist cry

They could see beyond an immediate horizon. Communists leaders could not.

The thoughts of Marx shaped the 20th Century.
The thoughts of Trotsky predicted the fall of the Communist countries. And the reasons behind it.


How is it that they did not see beyond an inmediate horizon?

[Red Army]

Re: How to make an atheist cry

Señora; Barriga is my husband's name.

Mil perdones señora.

Personally, I don't think that the words "good" and "massacre" fit well together in a sentence.

So that's your opinion. I'm a communist and having that opinion would be hypocrite.

Well, if we talk about China, the political system there falls somewhere between oligarchy and despotism with a strong emphasis on slave labor. I don't really see much communism there, except for the name and the flag.

But the property of the state is there. I agree there is a need of a political revolution, but China is a communist country in essence. Of course, that essence is rotting.

Based on what I hear from some friends from Russia, about the same as it is now.

Under Christian government now. And we atheist do not base our arguments on what we heard from friends.
Look the figures during the New Economic Policy until the seventies, before the Gorbachov treason.

Based on the best available data, probably somewhat better than it is now.

Source?

I have to give you this one. Cuba before Castro was definitely the best brothel that the US ever had!

There is a reason there were revolutions in those countries. The only reason to take a gun and go against an organized army, is that your life sucks, and you have reached the bottom.

For a self-proclaimed communist, you need to read more of Antonio Gramsci. Nationalism is not going anywhere; that was true when Gramsci wrote it, rotting in prison under Mussolini's rule, and it is equally true now.

Gramsci is one of the reasons we have Bernie Sanders and Hugo Chavez. No, thanks.
Trotsky wrote against nationalism in the early 20th Century, and that is all the reading I need.

Overall, I give you a C+. Your argumentation is satisfactory but far from excellent.

Thanks.

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: How to make an atheist cry

Mil perdones señora.

De nada, camarada.

But the property of the state is there.

Can it be called property of state when it is controlled by a small group of families?

I agree there is a need of a political revolution, but China is a communist country in essence.

I'm afraid that essence has became so diluted that now it's rather homeopathic, if you catch my drift.

Under Christian government now. And we atheist do not base our arguments on what we heard from friends.
Look the figures during the New Economic Policy until the seventies, before the Gorbachov treason.

Yeah, like these statistics were not fudged.

Source?

My pleasure! Here is a selection of peer-reviewed articles:

Rural poverty in China
Geographic poverty traps in China
Transient poverty in China
China fudges their statistics to look like they are reducing rural poverty
Medical expenses lead to increased poverty in rural China

...And this is just from the first page out of nearly half a million results on Google Scholar!

And here's some more from a more diachronic search:

Regional disparities over time in China

I was unable to find reliable statistics older than 60 years ago, but when we think about increased pollution and the failed 1-child policy and therefore China having to deal with the fact that most of adolescent boys and young men cannot find girls anymore, yeah, I'd say that the overall Chinese living conditions have decreased rather than increased.

Gramsci is one of the reasons we have Bernie Sanders and Hugo Chavez.

And Evo Morales, too.

Trotsky wrote against nationalism in the early 20th Century, and that is all the reading I need.

You'd fit among the Landover Baptist community much better than you think, Mr. Army. You share with them the ability to have a blind faith in something that was written long time ago by people who had no idea about the times we live in now.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: How to make an atheist cry

The thoughts of Marx shaped the 20th Century.
The thoughts of Trotsky predicted the fall of the Communist countries. And the reasons behind it.


How is it that they did not see beyond an inmediate horizon?

Because they do not implement Biblical standards and have not accepted Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Saviour.

[Harsha Shah]

Re: How to make an atheist cry

Enjoy your made in China products, made with more efficiency that those made in any capitalist country.
And also, think how all the capitalist world depends on China to survive.
I'm not going to defend their political regime but they prove the possibilities of a communist-like economy.

Yes, Mr. Army, I am Harsha Shah. I am hoping that I am not offending you. Yes. I am seeing many common points between some of our Eastern religions, such the Jainism that I am an adherent of (but secular) and socialism. Yes. I really hope that this is not offending you, but I am seeing also a very big difference, yes. Communism is very different from our Jainism because you are not condemning all violence, yes? You do not follow ahimsa. You are advocating revolution and the dictatorship of the proletariat and striving for these goals even with violence, yes? Yes, I know that this is probably offending you.

I am wondering if you have ever been reading the books by Ursula Kroeber LeGuin. Yes? She was writing about non-authoritative communism many decades ago. The book I am reading is called The Dispossessed and it is a very good book and it is depicting a society of that kind, yes. It is also about temporal physics. The Left Hand of Darkness is also a very good book but that is about gender. Yes. I am thinking that both my Jainism and your communism are like the blind men and the elephant. They are all feeling a different part of the elephant but they forget that the elephant is a breathing feeling creature that should also be able to follow its own path to happiness. Yes. I am very sorry if I was offending you. Yes.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: How to make an atheist cry

Godlessness is the reason. It's as though God, in Jesus a carpenter, has adjusted His lathe to create table legs then Mao and Trotsky turn up wanting to make a pencil case. It's not going to end well, is it.

JEREMIAH 18 . KJV . look up
1The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

As the wood in the lathe so the clay on the wheel. God knows what is about to happen, nations with the pencil case model for survival fail. We are unformed clay. Our ideas are worthless. God's ideas are all that matter. Only by His hand will what He intends be created.

[Harsha Shah]

Re: How to make an atheist cry

Godlessness is the reason. It's as though God, in Jesus a carpenter, has adjusted His lathe to create table legs then Mao and Trotsky turn up wanting to make a pencil case. It's not going to end well, is it.

JEREMIAH 18 . KJV . look up
1The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

As the wood in the lathe so the clay on the wheel. God knows what is about to happen, nations with the pencil case model for survival fail. We are unformed clay. Our ideas are worthless. God's ideas are all that matter. Only by His hand will what He intends be created.

Miss Lizalor, it is Harsha Shah here again. Are you referring to the Lathe of Heaven that is also by Ursula Kroeber LeGuin? I am hoping that I am not offending you. Yes, it is book that tells us how our dreams can change the world. Yes. That is what communism is also wishing that that it would be all about, yes?