[Thomas Taylor]

Re: 101 REASONS WHY GOD HATES GOTHS!

Being a fan of music (of any kind) does not make you unproductive.

Yes it does if you listen to it at work.

Most Goths are employed or have/run their own businesses, and live on their own or at least with a boyfriend or girlfriend, husband or wife, or roommate/housemate just like anyone else. Again, please stop making unfair judgements without any evidence or proof to support such accusations.

By your own admission most goths live in sin - i.e hellbound

How is worshiping a dead man productive?

Who is dead. Jesus died temporarily and was ressurected. The Bible (KJV 1611) tells us this:

Romans 14:9

For to this ende Christ both died, and rose, and reuiued, that hee might be Lord both of the dead and liuing.

By the way, I am a teacher. Jesus was a teacher as well as a carpenter.

John 3:2

The same came to Iesus by night, and said vnto him, Rabbi, wee know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can doe these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him

[Thomas Taylor]

Re: 101 REASONS WHY GOD HATES GOTHS!

Total drivel.

Proof from an official source that goths are drug addicted murdering scum:

http://christopedia.atwiki.com/page/Goths

[Barbariana(aka fatuglywhoreofravensock)]

Re: 101 REASONS WHY GOD HATES GOTHS!

Yes it does if you listen to it at work.



By your own admission most goths live in sin - i.e hellbound



Who is dead. Jesus died temporarily and was ressurected. The Bible (KJV 1611) tells us this:

Romans 14:9

For to this ende Christ both died, and rose, and reuiued, that hee might be Lord both of the dead and liuing.

By the way, I am a teacher. Jesus was a teacher as well as a carpenter.

John 3:2

The same came to Iesus by night, and said vnto him, Rabbi, wee know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can doe these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him

It's not my fault if you are incapable of multi-tasking. And being a fan of something does not mean you listen to it 24/7 anyway. Like many in the Goth scene, I am a fashion designer. I can work while I listen to music. I'm sorry if you can't do that.

You can live with a boyfriend or girlfriend and not have sex with them. Many women were fostered with their fiancee's family in the Medieval era for years before marriage and sex. This CAN be done today if people prefer to wait until marriage. I also said that they live with their boyfriend/girlfriend OR husband/wife and that many also live on their own or with roommates. Most decent people do not have sex with their roommates.

And we weren't talking about whether or not Goths were going to hell. I was replying to you saying Goths are unemployable and not productive members of society. I was pointing out that this is not the case, most Goths are employed or run their own businesses, and are successful enough to not live in their parent's basements.

The King James version of the bible was mistranslated. The bible is also not proven fact. Science knows, no one can live forever, and no one can be brought back to life literally. Jesus was a man who lived centuries ago, died centuries ago, and cannot possibly be alive today.

Where do you teach? You don't need to give me the name of the school, if you feel threatened by me knowing that. Considering your opinion about Goths, I can see this as being a possibility. But what subject do you teach? And is it at an elementary school? A high school? Is this a Christian, private, or public school?

Proof from an official source that goths are drug addicted murdering scum:

http://christopedia.atwiki.com/page/Goths

Christopedia? Seriously? And who wrote this official source? Someone from your church? That is not an official source. This was obviously written by your church. Putting up a website stating your unsubstantiated opinion is not an "official source" nor is it "proof."

Can you provide an unphotoshopped raw image of a person in a Bauhaus (this is an ex. There are at least 1,000 Goth bands to choose from) t-shirt?

A video shot at a Goth club night (where they play Goth bands) where someone is doing drugs or murdering someone?

A newspaper article expressing one of the following events

1. A "Goth" club being raided for drugs during an actual Goth night. (Most clubs being promoted as "Goth clubs" have non-Goth theme nights as well)

2. A murder case, where it actually states the perpetrator ends a Goth club night or is a fan of a Goth band (MM is not a Goth band).

Video or photographic evidence of someone in a Goth band shirt being arrested for drugs (it doesn't matter where they were at the time of arrest if they are clearly wearing a Goth band shirt) or murder.

You could provide me with the Facebook, Vampirefreaks, etc., page of someone who has pictures wearing Goth band shirts, has posted about going to Goth concerts/nights, has Goth bands on their profile, who has made a status admitting they do drugs.

You could provide me with the a link to someone's police records, or a screen shot of it, as well as a link to this person's profile on some website so I can see if they are Goth and not just some random person you choose to claim is Goth.

[Thomas Taylor]

Re: 101 REASONS WHY GOD HATES GOTHS!

Blah, blah, blah........

Goth crimes:


USA – 105 Year old Minnesota United Church burned to the ground in a hate crime against Christianity by three sick Goth teens on the birthday of Varg Vikernes, a black metal musician now serving time in prison in Norway for murdering a band mate and burning several churches. Vikernes has inspired dozens of copycat church burnings around the world.

USA – Goth Ben W. Fawley, age 38, told Richmond, Virginia police that he killed Virginia Commonwealth University freshman, Taylor Behl, age 17 while having “rough sex.” Though 38, Fawley looked 17 and made it a point to dress like a 17 or 18-year-old Goth kid.

USA – Ten killed in Red Lake High School massacre by Goth Nazi Jeffrey Weise.

Goth David Rodriguez, 18, and a companion abducts 2 children in order to perform satanic ritual, allegedly to get his girlfriend back. Erika Castillo, 6, and her older brother, Oscar, were snatched outside a Little Village library on Friday. Rodriguez planned to carve a pentagram in the girl’s chest.
USA – California, Goth Scott Dyleski, age 16, arrested for the brutal bludgeoning murder of Pamela Vitale, age 52. Vitale was the wife of well-known defense attorney and legal analyst for various cable news outlets, Daniel Horowitz


Do you want some more?

http://conservativecritic.wordpress.com/2013/01/11/the-newtown-connecticut-murders-and-the-goth-connection/

[Attila's Wife]

Re: 101 REASONS WHY GOD HATES GOTHS!

Can you provide an unphotoshopped raw image of a person in a Bauhaus (this is an ex. There are at least 1,000 Goth bands to choose from) t-shirt?

Mostly tl;dr as per usual, but as to the above, well yes, of course, but why?

Here he or she is, in all its glory. The rest of you may want to look away now, as it's not a pretty sight. I'm hoping a moderator will be along to remove this foul image shortly.



The picture appears to have been taken in a doctor's surgery.

[Barbariana(aka fatuglywhoreofravensock)]

Re: 101 REASONS WHY GOD HATES GOTHS!

Now if there are any other opinions you would like me to disprove, just let me know.

"USA – 105 Year old Minnesota United Church burned to the ground in a hate crime against Christianity by three sick Goth teens on the birthday of Varg Vikernes, a black metal musician now serving time in prison in Norway for murdering a band mate and burning several churches. Vikernes has inspired dozens of copycat church burnings around the world."

Black Metal is not Goth. Black Metal fans are not Goth unless they also listen to Goth Rock. Are you calling them Goth or are you qouting an article?

"USA – Ten killed in Red Lake High School massacre by Goth Nazi Jeffrey Weise."

I have read the articles on this case. No where in any of them does it mention the word Goth or what music this kid listened to. As I pointed out earlier, this was committed by a Native American on a Native American reservation, and the victims were other Native Americans. All of whom practiced a mixture of Catholicism with Native American rituals. This had nothing to do with Goths.

Also, had I not looked these things up, I would not even know they really happened, seeing as you provided no news paper articles or anything as sources.

"USA – Goth Ben W. Fawley, "

"self-described "Goth/skater from the 1980s." "

Do you have any evidence that him calling himself Goth was not an empty or misguided claim? Do you have any evidence that he in fact listened to Goth Rock? Many people, teens and even older, call themselves Goth when they do not listen to Goth Rock and do not know what Goth actually is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Taylor_Behl

The only mention of the word Goth is that he "self-described Goth." Sounds more like another ignorant perswon giving a scene he is not a part of a bad name.

" David Rodriguez,"

articles.chicagotribune.com/2005-11-28/news/0511280226_1_satanic-ritual-rodriguez-home-david-rodriguez

No mention anywhere of the word Goth, or of any bands he listened to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Dyleski

Only mention of the word Gothic. No mentions of the word Goth. And there is no specification about what these "Gothic" symbols were. Did the judge mean pentagrams? Ankhs? These would suggest he was into the occult, not necessarily the Goth music scene. I highly doubt what is meant by "Gothic symbols" is the logo for Goth bands, they would probably have just mentioned the bands he was into if this was the case.


"Prosecutor Harold Jewett said Dyleski identified with Gothic symbols and art that depicted violence"

You have failed to prove that any of these people listened to Goth Rock, bands that sound like Bauhaus/The Banshees/Sisters of Mercy. You have failed to prove that any of these people were actually Goths.

The website you linked is not a reliable source. Whoever wrote the article did not research the subject well, which often happens in the media. They care more about sensationalizing something, more about ratings and making a big story, than they care about the truth.

That article talks about Columbine and other shootings having to do with the Goth subculture, then goes on to talk about the Goth subculture itself and when it started, while leaving out the names of the bands who started it. It then goes on to say this

"The term “Goth” refers to all categories of Gothics, from Emo ‘Goths’ to black metal ‘Goths’ to vampire ‘Goths; from thrasher ‘Goths’ to punk ‘Goths’ to industrial ‘Goths.’ “Goth” is just a word the media uses to group a certain type of people together. The Goth culture includes Emos/ punks/ Wiccan witches/ self-abusers/ thrashers/ grungers/ heavy metallers, et cetera. This includes the Marilyn Manson, AC/DC, Smashing Pumpkins, Van Halen and Ozzy Osbourne crowd as well."

Showing that proper research was not done, or the reporter did the research, but just left out the names of the actual Goth bands because had they added them, they could not have made it look like Marilyn Manson and Black Metal fans have any connection to the Goth scene.

This also looks like the same "article" that is posted on GodhatesGoth.com, which was created by your church. So basically you're showing me a bunch of supposedly "accurate" resources, all written by members of your church. The same article that I, and others, have been trying to tell you is incorrect.

From Wikipedia

"According to music journalist Simon Reynolds, standard musical fixtures of gothic rock include "scything guitar patterns, high-pitched Joy Division basslines that often usurped the melodic role [and] beats that were either hypnotically dirgelike or 'tribal'".[5] Reynolds described the vocal style as consisting of "deep, droning alloys of Jim Morrison and Leonard Cohen".[5] Siouxsie and the Banshees tended to play the flanging guitar effect, producing a brittle, cold and harsh sound that contrasted with their psychedelic rock predecessors.[6] Several acts used drum machines that do not stress the back beat in the rhythm.[7]"

None of that describes Marilyn Manson or the Black Metal genre.

Taken from this site http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/histgoth.htm


"
Goth is an alternative subculture; it is both a style of music and a fashion, like Punk. People who listen to the music don't necessarily dress in the style, and people who look like goths don't necessarily like the music either - a lot of metal fans have adopted the goth look, making for a great deal of confusion


However, on the rare occasion that someone looks like a goth and likes goth music, chances are they're actually a goth."

From the Rules for the Gothic Rock forum on Vampirefreaks.com

1. The discussion of gothic metal is a big no, no. Gothic metal is a subgenre of metal, not gothic rock or deathrock. If you're unsure if the band you want to mention is goth, refer to the list of bands below.

http://vampirefreaks.com/forum/comment.php?entry=533103

"Do you want some more?"

How can I want more when you did not provide me with ANY proof that fans of GOTH ROCK were responsible?

Mostly tl;dr as per usual, but as to the above, well yes, of course, but why?

Here he or she is, in all its glory. The rest of you may want to look away now, as it's not a pretty sight. I'm hoping a moderator will be along to remove this foul image shortly.



The picture appears to have been taken in a doctor's surgery.

So you're showing me a picture of a random person in a Bauhaus shirt. What is supposed to be being proven here? I see no one being murdered, no drugs, no way to identify who this Goth is, no article posted with this image saying this Goth has committed any crime, no profile for this person being posted showing they have admitted to any crime.

[Attila's Wife]

Re: 101 REASONS WHY GOD HATES GOTHS!

So you're showing me a picture of a random person in a Bauhaus shirt. What is supposed to be being proven here?

Your posts are such random streams of (un-/sub-)consciousness that I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to prove. Do you? I was just providing what you asked for in your post written at 11.42. If you go back and read it, you asked:

Can you provide an unphotoshopped raw image of a person in a Bauhaus (this is an ex. There are at least 1,000 Goth bands to choose from) t-shirt?

To which the answer was yes.

[Barbariana(aka fatuglywhoreofravensock)]

Re: 101 REASONS WHY GOD HATES GOTHS!

Your posts are such random streams of (un-/sub-)consciousness that I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to prove. Do you? I was just providing what you asked for in your post written at 11.42. If you go back and read it, you asked:



To which the answer was yes.

You obviously did not read the entire post, which seems a bit silly. Why would I want you to post an image of someone in a Bauhaus shirt for no reason? If you had read the entire post, which was not the least bit random, you would know that I was suggesting evidence you could use to prove these "points" of yours; that Goths are murders, drug addicts, etc., An image of a person in a Bauhaus shirt that has no evidence of those things in it, and is not linked to such evidence, is not proving anything.

[Alvin Moss]

Re: 101 REASONS WHY GOD HATES GOTHS!

Now if there are any other opinions you would like me to disprove, just let me know.

"USA – 105 Year old Minnesota United Church burned to the ground in a hate crime against Christianity by three sick Goth teens on the birthday of Varg Vikernes, a black metal musician now serving time in prison in Norway for murdering a band mate and burning several churches. Vikernes has inspired dozens of copycat church burnings around the world."

Black Metal is not Goth. Black Metal fans are not Goth unless they also listen to Goth Rock. Are you calling them Goth or are you qouting an article?

"USA – Ten killed in Red Lake High School massacre by Goth Nazi Jeffrey Weise."

I have read the articles on this case. No where in any of them does it mention the word Goth or what music this kid listened to. As I pointed out earlier, this was committed by a Native American on a Native American reservation, and the victims were other Native Americans. All of whom practiced a mixture of Catholicism with Native American rituals. This had nothing to do with Goths.

Also, had I not looked these things up, I would not even know they really happened, seeing as you provided no news paper articles or anything as sources.

"USA – Goth Ben W. Fawley, "

"self-described "Goth/skater from the 1980s." "

Do you have any evidence that him calling himself Goth was not an empty or misguided claim? Do you have any evidence that he in fact listened to Goth Rock? Many people, teens and even older, call themselves Goth when they do not listen to Goth Rock and do not know what Goth actually is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Taylor_Behl

The only mention of the word Goth is that he "self-described Goth." Sounds more like another ignorant perswon giving a scene he is not a part of a bad name.

" David Rodriguez,"

articles.chicagotribune.com/2005-11-28/news/0511280226_1_satanic-ritual-rodriguez-home-david-rodriguez

No mention anywhere of the word Goth, or of any bands he listened to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Dyleski

Only mention of the word Gothic. No mentions of the word Goth. And there is no specification about what these "Gothic" symbols were. Did the judge mean pentagrams? Ankhs? These would suggest he was into the occult, not necessarily the Goth music scene. I highly doubt what is meant by "Gothic symbols" is the logo for Goth bands, they would probably have just mentioned the bands he was into if this was the case.


"Prosecutor Harold Jewett said Dyleski identified with Gothic symbols and art that depicted violence"

You have failed to prove that any of these people listened to Goth Rock, bands that sound like Bauhaus/The Banshees/Sisters of Mercy. You have failed to prove that any of these people were actually Goths.

The website you linked is not a reliable source. Whoever wrote the article did not research the subject well, which often happens in the media. They care more about sensationalizing something, more about ratings and making a big story, than they care about the truth.

That article talks about Columbine and other shootings having to do with the Goth subculture, then goes on to talk about the Goth subculture itself and when it started, while leaving out the names of the bands who started it. It then goes on to say this

"The term “Goth” refers to all categories of Gothics, from Emo ‘Goths’ to black metal ‘Goths’ to vampire ‘Goths; from thrasher ‘Goths’ to punk ‘Goths’ to industrial ‘Goths.’ “Goth” is just a word the media uses to group a certain type of people together. The Goth culture includes Emos/ punks/ Wiccan witches/ self-abusers/ thrashers/ grungers/ heavy metallers, et cetera. This includes the Marilyn Manson, AC/DC, Smashing Pumpkins, Van Halen and Ozzy Osbourne crowd as well."

Showing that proper research was not done, or the reporter did the research, but just left out the names of the actual Goth bands because had they added them, they could not have made it look like Marilyn Manson and Black Metal fans have any connection to the Goth scene.

This also looks like the same "article" that is posted on GodhatesGoth.com, which was created by your church. So basically you're showing me a bunch of supposedly "accurate" resources, all written by members of your church. The same article that I, and others, have been trying to tell you is incorrect.

From Wikipedia

"According to music journalist Simon Reynolds, standard musical fixtures of gothic rock include "scything guitar patterns, high-pitched Joy Division basslines that often usurped the melodic role [and] beats that were either hypnotically dirgelike or 'tribal'".[5] Reynolds described the vocal style as consisting of "deep, droning alloys of Jim Morrison and Leonard Cohen".[5] Siouxsie and the Banshees tended to play the flanging guitar effect, producing a brittle, cold and harsh sound that contrasted with their psychedelic rock predecessors.[6] Several acts used drum machines that do not stress the back beat in the rhythm.[7]"

None of that describes Marilyn Manson or the Black Metal genre.

Taken from this site http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/histgoth.htm


"
Goth is an alternative subculture; it is both a style of music and a fashion, like Punk. People who listen to the music don't necessarily dress in the style, and people who look like goths don't necessarily like the music either - a lot of metal fans have adopted the goth look, making for a great deal of confusion


However, on the rare occasion that someone looks like a goth and likes goth music, chances are they're actually a goth."

From the Rules for the Gothic Rock forum on VampireGeeks.com

1. The discussion of gothic metal is a big no, no. Gothic metal is a subgenre of metal, not gothic rock or deathrock. If you're unsure if the band you want to mention is goth, refer to the list of bands below.

http://VampireGeeks.com/forum/comment.php?entry=533103

"Do you want some more?"

How can I want more when you did not provide me with ANY proof that fans of GOTH ROCK were responsible?



So you're showing me a picture of a random person in a Bauhaus shirt. What is supposed to be being proven here? I see no one being murdered, no drugs, no way to identify who this Goth is, no article posted with this image saying this Goth has committed any crime, no profile for this person being posted showing they have admitted to any crime.

Look here woman. You have every kind of excuse to try to hide the truth. It will not work.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

[Attila's Wife]

Re: 101 REASONS WHY GOD HATES GOTHS!

You obviously did not read the entire post, which seems a bit silly.

- a bit silly
+ eminently sensible

Why would I want you to post an image of someone in a Bauhaus shirt for no reason?

Why would you want me to do anything?

If you had read the entire post,

Why would I do that?

which was not the least bit random,

you would know that I was suggesting evidence you could use to prove these "points" of yours; that Goths are murders, drug addicts, etc.

I have made no such "points". My personal opinion is that goths are mostly just silly teenagers. But are you telling us that goths, when committing crimes, identify themselves by wearing a particular type of t-shirt? And that if they aren't photographed wearing these shirts at the time, they aren't goths?

Bored now. Bye bye.

I will pray for you,
YiC
Attila's Wife

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: 101 REASONS WHY GOD HATES GOTHS!

I have made no such "points". My personal opinion is that goths are mostly just silly teenagers. But are you telling us that goths, when committing crimes, identify themselves by wearing a particular type of t-shirt? And that if they aren't photographed wearing these shirts at the time, they aren't goths?

Yes, that's what she's saying
But she doesn't understand what the words actually mean

[Barbariana(aka fatuglywhoreofravensock)]

Re: 101 REASONS WHY GOD HATES GOTHS!

Look here woman. You have every kind of excuse to try to hide the truth. It will not work.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

Hide the truth? I'm still waiting for you to say anything that IS the truth about the Goth scene.

"I have made no such "points"."

So you disagree with the Landover Baptist Church? How nice. Then don't act like you have to prove anything for them and just stay out of that aspect of the discussion?

"My personal opinion is that goths are mostly just silly teenagers."

The truth though, is that very few teenagers know what Goth is.

" But are you telling us that goths, when committing crimes, identify themselves by wearing a particular type of t-shirt?"

No. I am telling you that Goths are fans of Goth Rock. So if you, or your church, want to show that Goths commit the crimes your church claims, you need to show evidence that Goths are actually committing these crimes. All that has been shown is that the media has claimed Goth is involved, your church claims Goth is involved, and that some of these idiot criminals claim to be Goth. Nothing has been shown to prove that these cases your church claims as evidence actually have anything to do with the Goth scene. As I've explained multiple times in precise English, if they are not fans of Goth Rock, they are not Goth. Where is the proof these criminals are Goths? Where is the proof they listen to GOTH ROCK?

"And that if they aren't photographed wearing these shirts at the time, they aren't goths?"

Internet has been a huge thing for how many years now? I'm pretty sure if any of these criminals were Goth, you could find some kind of evidence they listen to Goth Rock. Whether at the time of the crime or o a different day. They do not have to be wearing a Goth band t-shirt at the time of arrest or criminal act. Provide me with an article stating a crime has been committed by a fan of a Goth Rock band. Or find me an article about a crime you think has to do with the Goth scene, and then find the person who has committed the crime's profile. If they are Goth, there should be something on one of their online profiles to show this.

Another suggestion would be to find an article about an arrest being made at a Goth club or concert, or a Goth club being raided for drugs. The article should mention the name of the club, as well as what day the arrest or raid happened. With that information, it should be relatively easy to look up the club, and find out what the theme night was for the night in question, and whether or not Goth Rock was included.

For example. Most clubs that claim to be Goth/Industrial clubs or have Goth nights, have the Goth theme on specific nights. Orpheus has changed theirs a few times over the years, but Obscura (the now defunct Goth night) was held on the first Friday of the month. Batz Over Baltimore is held at the Depot on the 3rd Saturday of every month. Many Goth clubs, nights, and DJs, will post their setlists within a week. So it shouldn't be too hard to find out if the person committed the crime were probably Goth.

I wore an Ensiferum shirt the other day. Ensiferum are a Pagan/Viking themed Metal band. That doesn't mean I wasn't Goth that day. You don't stop being a fan of Goth Rock just because you're not wearing a Goth band shirt that day. But by just looking at me, another Goth who had never met me wouldn't realize I was a Goth because they'd have no way to know. Unless when they saw me wearing that Ensiferum shirt, I was in a Goth club dancing to or obviously enjoying the Goth Rock being played.

"

Yes, that's what she's saying
But she doesn't understand what the words actually mean

"

I have never said nor implied that a Goth is only Goth when wearing a Goth band shirt. Nor have I ever said or implied that a Goth can only listen to Goth Rock. However, you cannot tell if someone is Goth unless

A. They are wearing some kind of Goth band merchandise

B. They tell you what bands they listen to and some of the bands they mention are Goth.

C. You see them dancing to or obviously enjoyed a Goth song.

D. They often attend Goth theme nights (which clearly play real Goth Rock)

E. You look at their profile and see some evidence that they are a fan of Goth Rock on it.

Really. How can we know that someone who committed a school shooting is Goth unless we know they listen to Goth Rock?

[Alvin Moss]

Re: 101 REASONS WHY GOD HATES GOTHS!

Methamphetamine will take over your tounge for the Devil. He always has a whole lot to say and that is why he favors meth.

Quack, quack, quack... when you have heard one meth head go off on a tangent, you have heard them all. By the time you get to incomprehensible mumbling, in a day or two, you won't be able to type. That will spare us your most bizarre ramblings.

[Barbariana(aka fatuglywhoreofravensock)]

Re: 101 REASONS WHY GOD HATES GOTHS!

Methamphetamine will take over your tounge for the Devil. He always has a whole lot to say and that is why he favors meth.

Quack, quack, quack... when you have heard one meth head go off on a tangent, you have heard them all. By the time you get to incomprehensible mumbling, in a day or two, you won't be able to type. That will spare us your most bizarre ramblings.

Yet again...someone who knows they cannot provide any such proof, so they pretend not to understand precise English. It never fails.

[Alvin Moss]

Re: 101 REASONS WHY GOD HATES GOTHS!

Mostly tl;dr as per usual, but as to the above, well yes, of course, but why?

Here he or she is, in all its glory. The rest of you may want to look away now, as it's not a pretty sight. I'm hoping a moderator will be along to remove this foul image shortly.



The picture appears to have been taken in a doctor's surgery.

I believe this is a woman, due to the apparent lack of an adams apple.

However, I should note that I have some concerns that the false beard line across the cheekbone may be an attempt to cover a real beard line, the adams apple having possibly been removed. It is clear to me that many Goths are transvestites and surgically tampered with individuals.

That may explain the fact that this picture was obviously taken shortly before some kind of surgery, possibly breast augmentation or radical circumcision.