[The Revelator]

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I am just telling you what the Bible says. It stresses greatle that we are to love one another, not hate. Remember, this was the second greatest commandment of all time according to Jesus.

On Your Knees

Your right, the Jews have rejected Jesus and are no longer his chosen ones. You said it yourself, the Gentiles now are. And a gentile in a non-Jew. You know what this means. WE ALL ARE HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE. Gentile doesnt = white skin.

Brother

Those commands were to a certain group of people for just that time. The Isrealites were establishing themselves as a nation. god was paving the way for them and gave them specific instructions. These instructions have no pertinence now in 21st century America.

Dr. Davidson

Are you overseas right now? If not, then you are not at war. There is no reason you should be killing anyone. for the Bible says Thou Shalt not Murder.

You see, Jesus abolished the old law of an eye for an eye. He told us no more! Read the entire Chapter of Matthew 5 and you'll see what I mean. He says blessed are the peacemakers. War has its place, but so does peace my friend.

Jesus' new command his loud and clear in the NEw Testament, LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF. Bless those that curse you, do good to those that hate you. (This is all from MAtthew 5).

Jesus is preaching love, grace, and peace here and I'm affraid you guys are missing it. Christ showed his love and grace when he died on the cross for us. H edidnt have to, but he chose to. He is telling us now to show that same love and grace to others. Please. take the time to read Matthew 5.

[Brother Temperance]

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Brother

Those commands were to a certain group of people for just that time. The Isrealites were establishing themselves as a nation. god was paving the way for them and gave them specific instructions. These instructions have no pertinence now in 21st century America.

So you agree that rape and genocide are approved of by God in some situations, but not in others?

[The Revelator]

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I agree that they were appropriate for that time and that time alone. There is no some situations. That was the only situation. The Old Testament Isrealites. When Jesus came, much of the old law was changed by Jesus himself. (Jesus worked on the Sabath, declaring he was Lord of the sabath and over it/ Jesus said that an eye for an eye was no more).

Jesus even came up with 2 new commandments ( I know I'm sounding like a broken record but these are important and you guys seem to be missing it.)

Jesus's new commandment was to love one another as thyself, how are we supposed to do that with rape and genocide.

[Rev. Dr. Davidson]

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Jesus's new commandment was to love one another as thyself

He said this, but in what context? Could he have been referring to the people in the community? This is that I believe the ten commandments rested upon. The good of the community; Those that believed in God. I'm not bif on quoting scripture, but in this case I've made an exception. Are these the laws of all, or the laws of God's chosen people, to be followed within their state/country?

Deuteronomy 5:6 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
10 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.
13 Six days thou shalt labor, and do all thy work:
14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
16 Honor thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
17 Thou shalt not kill.
18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
19 Neither shalt thou steal.
20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbor.
21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbor's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbor's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbor's.

[The Revelator]

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I believe the Ten Commandments are there to prove that no one is perfect and that we are in need of a savior. No one has been able to keep all of the commandments in their hearts. No one. Besides Christ.

Oh yes, it doesnt just say love your neighbor. IT SAYS TO LOVE YOUR ENEMIES!

I urge you, Christian, to read Matthew chapter 5. The Bible is very clear on this subject, there is no gray area.

Also read 1 john 4:7-21 to find a warning to those who dont love their enemies.

I urge you right now to read both of those sections of Scripture, and tell me what you think they mean.

[Pastor Al E Pistle]

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I urge you right now to read both of those sections of Scripture, and tell me what you think they mean.

Why you uppity little homer! How dare you suggest that anyone here report to you! Get thee gone, SATAN, before I DO ban you.

[The Revelator]

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I'm sorry. I did not mean to offend anybody with that post. Please forgive me of that.

I in no way meant to make it seem like I wanted people to report to me. I just wanted some feedback. I wanted see what you guys think of those verses.

You see. There are too extremes that I am seeing.

There are the Christian liberals, who believe God is love, and only love.

There are you guys, who believe that God is just and only just.

There needs to be a happy medium met here. You have to realize that God is both a God of love and Justice. He is both a God of grace and wrath.

[The Revelator]

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Without trying to step on anyone's shoes here, I am stilled interested to hear your opinins on these verses. Once again they are:

Matthew 5
1 John 4:7-21

[Brother Temperance]

I agree that they were appropriate for that time and that time alone. There is no some situations. That was the only situation. The Old Testament Isrealites. When Jesus came, much of the old law was changed by Jesus himself. (Jesus worked on the Sabath, declaring he was Lord of the sabath and over it/ Jesus said that an eye for an eye was no more).

Jesus even came up with 2 new commandments ( I know I'm sounding like a broken record but these are important and you guys seem to be missing it.)

Jesus's new commandment was to love one another as thyself, how are we supposed to do that with rape and genocide.

Loving others as we love ourselves is not a new commandment from the NT.
Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD

Why did Jesus re-state an OT commandment like "love thy neighbour as thyself"? Because He and the Old Testament God are one. If God commanded rape and genocide, then so did Jesus. Do you suppose you could explain to an Amalekite woman exactly why her rape was a good thing, but the rape of a contemporary towelhead would be unacceptable?

The idea that Jesus came up with "love thy neighbour" and it was not featured in the Old Testament is an anti-semitic slur. Friend, are you some kind of an anti-semite?

Without trying to step on anyone's shoes here, I am stilled interested to hear your opinins on these verses. Once again they are:

1 John 4:7-21

I found re-reading 1 John 4:7-21 slightly confusing. For instance, look at 1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

That first sentence seems a bit weird. After all, God appeared quite a lot to the patriarchs, and Numbers 33:11 even specifically mentions Moses talking face-to-face with God. The statement in 4:18 about there being no fear in love confused me a little bit as well - I know you'll probably try and claim that Jesus' new covenant cancels out the dozens of exhortations to fear God in the Old Testament, but then why are we commanded to fear God in Matthew 10:28, Luke 12:5, Ephesians 5:21, and 1 Peter 2:17? Oh, and how do we reconcile the statement in 1 John 4:20 that we cannot love God and hate our brother with the statement in Luke 14:26 that we cannot be Christ's disciples without hating our brothers? Of course, the Bible is infallible, so I know these can't be real contradictions, there must just be a problem in the way I'm reading them, but I seriously can't work out where I'm going wrong. Can you help out at all?

[SalvationSeeker]

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There are the Christian liberals, who believe God is love, and only love.

There are you guys, who believe that God is just and only just.

There needs to be a happy medium met here. You have to realize that God is both a God of love and Justice. He is both a God of grace and wrath.

No, we don't.
We have always stressed that God is a God of both love and wrath.
He is God, and He has made EVERYTHING; both good and evil.

[The Revelator]

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Firs tof all, I thank you dearly for responding.

Friend, are you some kind of an anti-semite?

I assure you I am not, and I will explain myself after the next comment...

Oh, and how do we reconcile the statement in 1 John 4:20 that we cannot love God and hate our brother with the statement in Luke 14:26 that we cannot be Christ's disciples without hating our brothers? Of course, the Bible is infallible, so I know these can't be real contradictions, there must just be a problem in the way I'm reading them, but I seriously can't work out where I'm going wrong. Can you help out at all?

let us take a look at Luke 14:26 in full.

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me and hate not his Father, and Mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sister, yea, AND HIS OWN LIFE ALSO, he cannot be my disciple.

Then in verse 27 Jesus states..

And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Jesus then goes on to recite two short parables, and wraps them up by saying

(v. 33)
So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.


Alright. So when I look at Luke 14:26, I see the word hate, but then later the word forsaketh is used. I dont really think that the hate refered to here is the same hate in 1 John 4:20, and let me explain why.

Note in Luke who Jesus says we are to hate. Our father, mothers, wives, sisters, brothers, strangers, AND EVEN OURSELVES. According to this verse, we should hate every single person. Not just the sinners, but the righteous as well, and even ourselves. This leads me to believe that when Christ said 'hate', he meant 'forsake'. In verse 33 when he was summing up what he was trying to say he actually used the word 'forsake' instead of hate....so what does this mean?

This means that God was saying, 'You cannot be my disciple unless you place me at the head of your life.' If we value our father, if we value our wife, if we value our children, or anyone else, more than we value God, we can not be true disciples of Christ. If you think I made that up from my own thoughts, look at the following verse. He says whoever doesnt bear their cross. Whoever doesnt give up everythign for him, and give their all to him, will not be his disciple. He repeats this again in verse 33 by saying whoever doesnt forsake all else for me will not be my disciple.

So Jesus isn't saying that to become his disciples we need to hate people. He is saying that we need to make him number 1 in our life. Whatever was number 1 before him needs to be forsaken, for he is worthy of our complete devotion.

Thus, it does not contradict 1 John 4:20, and I'll post what it says so all can read it.

1 John 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar;: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love god whom he hath not seen?

Thats a good question by the apostle John, it's a question everyone needs to ask themselves, including me.

[Brother Temperance]

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let us take a look at Luke 14:26 in full.

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me and hate not his Father, and Mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sister, yea, AND HIS OWN LIFE ALSO, he cannot be my disciple.

Then in verse 27 Jesus states..

And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Jesus then goes on to recite two short parables, and wraps them up by saying

(v. 33)
So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.


Alright. So when I look at Luke 14:26, I see the word hate, but then later the word forsaketh is used. I dont really think that the hate refered to here is the same hate in 1 John 4:20, and let me explain why.

Note in Luke who Jesus says we are to hate. Our father, mothers, wives, sisters, brothers, strangers, AND EVEN OURSELVES. According to this verse, we should hate every single person. Not just the sinners, but the righteous as well, and even ourselves. This leads me to believe that when Christ said 'hate', he meant 'forsake'. In verse 33 when he was summing up what he was trying to say he actually used the word 'forsake' instead of hate....so what does this mean?

This means that God was saying, 'You cannot be my disciple unless you place me at the head of your life.' If we value our father, if we value our wife, if we value our children, or anyone else, more than we value God, we can not be true disciples of Christ. If you think I made that up from my own thoughts, look at the following verse. He says whoever doesnt bear their cross. Whoever doesnt give up everythign for him, and give their all to him, will not be his disciple. He repeats this again in verse 33 by saying whoever doesnt forsake all else for me will not be my disciple.

So Jesus isn't saying that to become his disciples we need to hate people. He is saying that we need to make him number 1 in our life. Whatever was number 1 before him needs to be forsaken, for he is worthy of our complete devotion.

Thus, it does not contradict 1 John 4:20, and I'll post what it says so all can read it.

1 John 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar;: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love god whom he hath not seen?

Thats a good question by the apostle John, it's a question everyone needs to ask themselves, including me.

Sorry friend, but, as nice as your explanation sounds, it just doesn't seem plausible. Jesus was a very articulate man (well, He is God, after all), and if He merely wanted us to forsake our families (and ourselves), I'm sure He would've stuck to just saying that. Try as I might, I just can't find any way of reading

If any man come to me and hate not his Father, and Mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sister, yea, AND HIS OWN LIFE ALSO, he cannot be my disciple.

where it doesn't seem to be commanding me to hate my brothers. It does remind me of another problem that's been bugging me of late. One of the most important commandments, repeated again and again throughout Deuteronomy, is to love God with all our heart and all our soul. But if we do that, how can we have any love left over for our brothers? I mean, if I had a wife who told me she loved me with all her heart, but she also loved my best friend, I really don't think I'd be able to take it very well, so I can't imagine God (who, let's not forget, is a Jealous God, as He reminds us throughout Exodus and Deuteronomy) looking too kindly on us loving other people too much. I mean, in 1 John 2:15, we're told to love not this world, or the things that are in this world, and I'm having serious difficulty reconciling that with the idea of loving even my Brothers In Christ, let alone every sinner in the world. Is there any help you can offer with that?

YIC,
Temperance.

[The Revelator]

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But there is still enough love to go around. When someone asked Jesus what is the greatest commandment, he said. Let me show you the verse.

Matthew 22:34-40
But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducces to silence, they were gathered together. Then, one of them, which was a lawyer, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord they God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

jesus shows us here that there is enough love to go around. Now he stresses that these are two huge commands! We need to love God with all our being. But we also need to love or be kind to our neighbors. We should not hate anyone. 1 John tells you what will happen if you do, and Jesus commands you right here that you shouldnt. I dont know how much clearer it can be...

[Brother Temperance]

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But there is still enough love to go around. When someone asked Jesus what is the greatest commandment, he said. Let me show you the verse.

Matthew 22:34-40
But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducces to silence, they were gathered together. Then, one of them, which was a lawyer, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord they God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

jesus shows us here that there is enough love to go around. Now he stresses that these are two huge commands! We need to love God with all our being. But we also need to love or be kind to our neighbors. We should not hate anyone. 1 John tells you what will happen if you do, and Jesus commands you right here that you shouldnt. I dont know how much clearer it can be...

But at the same time, 1 John (admittedly, 1 John 2 rather than 1 John 4) tells us not to love this world or the things in it. It also tells us that all nonchristians are antichrists. I just can't see how I can love my neighbours (unless we're using neighbours in the narrowest sense possible) without loving this world.

[The Revelator]

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There is a fine line between loving the world, and loving people. Let me show you what I mean by revealing the very next verse in 1 John 2.

1 John 2:15-16
15 Love not the world, NEITHER THE THINGS THAT ARE IN THE WORLD. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Alright. When John is telling us not to love the world and the things of the world, he isnt refering to actual PEOPLE, he is referring to THINGS. How do I know this? Look at the next verse. He lists off the things of the world that we should not love. He lists of lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and pride as a few examples of what he's talking about. If he really meant people, dont you think his examples would have been something like "drunkards, homosexuals, and sinners"? But no, that was not his examples because that wa snot what he was referring to.

You can still love your fellow man without loving the world. You have heard of the phrase, "Love the sinner, hate the sin." As much as I agree with you that it is somewhat a cliche, it does have truth to it.

Jesus was the perfect example of this. HE ATE WITH TAX COLLECTERS AND SINNERS. He associated with them on a daily basis. But he never partook in their actions. He loved his neighbor, but did not practice in their sin. Since we are to be like Christ aren't we supposed to do the same thing?