[Rev. Jim Osborne]

Re: Why is the Bible the ONLY True Word of God?

There is no paradox. The Bible has to be self-referential because it's the Word of God(c). Nothing comes higher or more authoritive than that. Therefore, the Bible is true because it's self-referential.

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Why is the Bible the ONLY True Word of God?

I have heard this argument 100 times before and usually from 5 and 6 year olds. You reduce the Word of The Lord to its natural elements.

You will be aware of the hundreds of autobiographies that abound in public libraries. Many of them are of characters whose lives have been forgotten other than in these tomes. You would not say that these are lies and inventions, would you?

You would say they are self-referential though.

But does that make them lies? No.

And there is a reason for that. There are outside sources claiming them to be authentic. As if we found some manuscript detailing Atlantis, we would not believe it to be true until something else was found to support it.

Thus, Scripture alone simply cannot support itself.

Sola Scriptura simple cannot stand.

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Why is the Bible the ONLY True Word of God?

And it was through the work of men (Guided by the HS) that Scripture was defined and established. And the men that God chose to work through was indeed, The Roman Catholic Church.

PROVE The old men in dresses who run the Roman Catholic Church are guided by The Holy Spirit.

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Why is the Bible the ONLY True Word of God?

Well lets follow threw on your paradox Mr Catholic; if The Bible is just a scrap of paper for men to edit at will what bases do we have for our faith? By your reasoning scripture is just work of powerful men with agendas and not God's message to creation. At that point I mine as well put on a penis shaped hat and call myself Pope too because we are into some Post-Modernist everything is right twilight zone.

No, The Bible has to be The Word of God and a product of His will or there no bases for Christianity.

I agree. The Bible must be the Word of God. But not simply because the Word of God itself claims to be the Word of God, as otherwise we have no bounds for which to limit our religion.

Whether you know and accept it or not, it was the authority of the Catholic Church that raised scripture to that level. The Church held it at that level because of Apostolic Tradition and Authority.

And it was through the work of men (Guided by the HS) that Scripture was defined and established. And the men that God chose to work through was indeed, The Roman Catholic Church.

However, because we have to recognize the fact that we simply cannot accept the authority of scripture simply because scripture says to, we must also by default accept the authority of whatever declared scripture to be authoritative.

Even if you would like to argue that it is not the Catholic Church that gives authority to scripture, can we agree that some other factor must be involved to remove the paradox?

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Why is the Bible the ONLY True Word of God?

Your claim is that the Bible makes the same claim as my little piece of paper.

Your claim is that because the Bible claims to be the Word of God, then we must believe it.

Your claim therefore, would apply also to my little piece of paper. Because it now claims to be God's Word as well.

What is your Bible? It is nothing but ground up trees and ink bound together in a book claiming to be the word of God. And you believe it for no other reason than the fact that it makes that claim.

However, my little piece of paper is of the same substance and making the same claim. Why do you not believe it to be the Word of God?

The reason is because you have grown up with the idea (just as every other Christian has) that the bible is the Word of God. You have always elevated it to that status without any real grounds. You have always accepted the Bible to be so and that nothing else could ever be so. But in fact, the only reason YOU have elevated the Scriptures to such a level, is because the Scriptures ask you to do so.

Paradox.

I have heard this argument 100 times before and usually from 5 and 6 year olds. You reduce the Word of The Lord to its natural elements.

You will be aware of the hundreds of autobiographies that abound in public libraries. Many of them are of characters whose lives have been forgotten other than in these tomes. You would not say that these are lies and inventions, would you?

You would say they are self-referential though.

But does that make them lies? No.

We hear of those “inspired by God”. Now some may merely be experiencing a brain seizure of some sort, but these are readily distinguishable from those whose words contain credible reports of events.

Now KJV is inspired by God and has nothing incredible at all within its covers.

Did you read the above? Did you weep? Are you ready to accept Jesus?


As far as oral tradition is concerned, I ask you only to consider "Chinese whispering" - entirely unreliable.

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Why is the Bible the ONLY True Word of God?

The reason is because you have grown up with the idea (just as every other Christian has) that the bible is the Word of God. You have always elevated it to that status without any real grounds. You have always accepted the Bible to be so and that nothing else could ever be so. But in fact, the only reason YOU have elevated the Scriptures to such a level, is because the Scriptures ask you to do so.

Paradox.

Well lets follow threw on your paradox Mr Catholic; if The Bible is just a scrap of paper for men to edit at will what bases do we have for our faith? By your reasoning scripture is just work of powerful men with agendas and not God's message to creation. At that point I mine as well put on a penis shaped hat and call myself Pope too because we are into some Post-Modernist everything is right twilight zone.

No, The Bible has to be The Word of God and a product of His will or there no bases for Christianity.

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Why is the Bible the ONLY True Word of God?

You need an outside influence to elevate Scripture to that level.

You need Oral Tradition.

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Why is the Bible the ONLY True Word of God?

Friend,

Your writing is not the same as The Bible. With your reasoning we should be listing to crazy men who live in caves in the desert and talk to invisible men. Your whole suggestion is ridiculous.

Your claim is that the Bible makes the same claim as my little piece of paper.

Your claim is that because the Bible claims to be the Word of God, then we must believe it.

Your claim therefore, would apply also to my little piece of paper. Because it now claims to be God's Word as well.

What is your Bible? It is nothing but ground up trees and ink bound together in a book claiming to be the word of God. And you believe it for no other reason than the fact that it makes that claim.

However, my little piece of paper is of the same substance and making the same claim. Why do you not believe it to be the Word of God?

The reason is because you have grown up with the idea (just as every other Christian has) that the bible is the Word of God. You have always elevated it to that status without any real grounds. You have always accepted the Bible to be so and that nothing else could ever be so. But in fact, the only reason YOU have elevated the Scriptures to such a level, is because the Scriptures ask you to do so.

Paradox.

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Why is the Bible the ONLY True Word of God?

That is exactly what I wanted you to say.

Tell me, if I took a piece of paper, and wrote on it, "This is the complete Word of God, so you must do as I say because this is God's Word. And you must believe that I am God's Word because you are supposed to believe what God's Word tells you and I am God's Word and I am telling you to believe me."

Friend,

Your writing is not the same as The Bible. With your reasoning we should be listing to crazy men who live in caves in the desert and talk to invisible men. Your whole suggestion is ridiculous.

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Why is the Bible the ONLY True Word of God?

It is says so in The Bible, KJV1611, friend that it is complete.

That is exactly what I wanted you to say.

Tell me, if I took a piece of paper, and wrote on it, "This is the complete Word of God, so you must do as I say because this is God's Word. And you must believe that I am God's Word because you are supposed to believe what God's Word tells you and I am God's Word and I am telling you to believe me."

You ever heard of a paradox? Well this is one.

You need something OUTSIDE of Scripture (Oral Tradition!! )to tell you to believe in it. Otherwise, your religion has no foundation except the religion itself.

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Why is the Bible the ONLY True Word of God?

Not to change the subject or anything... but can I just post a question?

There are no bad questions friend, only hellbound God mocking questioners.

BTW we accept your concession of defeat and admission that Catholic doctrine is WRONG.

How do we know, you or I or anyone for that matter, how do we KNOW that the Bible as we have it is complete as we have it? To my understanding, there is no divinely inspired table of contents yes? So how can anyone know that everything we need to know is in the Holy Scriptures?

It is says so in The Bible, KJV1611, friend that it is complete.

[Sacred Heart]

Re: Why is the Bible the ONLY True Word of God?

Not to change the subject or anything... but can I just post a question?

How do we know, you or I or anyone for that matter, how do we KNOW that the Bible as we have it is complete as we have it? To my understanding, there is no divinely inspired table of contents yes? So how can anyone know that everything we need to know is in the Holy Scriptures?

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Why is the Bible the ONLY True Word of God?

You'll have to forgive me if I am missing your point here. But is what you're saying that the Council of Rome was not what declared the official canon of Scripture but rather this occurred 100 years later.

Who cares about what is some council of men did? It was God Himself who decided what is cannon in The Bible as God says so (somewhere) in the KJV1611. You make the Bible something concocted by a bunch of old guys with a political agenda.

Frankly as a Christian I have no time for some wack job who goes around claiming what is in the Bible or not because he has some fancy hat and sits in the big chair. How anyone can buy into this Pope nonsense is beyond me. Clearly God told King James the 1st of England what the Bible should be and that is that.

Weren't you trying to prove somehow that the Catholic Church did not decided what was canonical? Somehow wasn't this supposed to disprove the Deuterocanon?

Deuterocanon is a bunch of Jewish texts. Of course they are not in the Christian Bible silly. Duh!

[Levi Jones]

Re: Why is the Bible the ONLY True Word of God?

Somehow wasn't this supposed to disprove the Deuterocanon?

Jerome (a well known prodigious womanizer) wanted to get rid of the Deuterocanon as he saw the books in the same light the Hebrews did. Nice works, but not Scripture.

The pope at the time, Damasus, was a murderer of his rival to get the job. He also put aside his wife and children to become a shining example of clerical purity.

So lecherous was Damasus, he was given the nickname matronarum auriscalpius or the matrons' ear-tickler. So corrupt was he that the Emporer decreed that Damasus' clergy was no longer allowed to accept gifts from widows they were bilking out of their life savings.

He's the one who came up with the idea of papal succession. He's also the one who insisted that they be left in the vulgate.

[Levi Jones]

Re: Why is the Bible the ONLY True Word of God?

You'll have to forgive me if I am missing your point here. But is what you're saying that the Council of Rome was not what declared the official canon of Scripture but rather this occurred 100 years later.

So... why does this matter?

It matters because your "church" continues to spread lies about events that never took place to this very day.

Weren't you trying to prove somehow that the Catholic Church did not decided what was canonical? Somehow wasn't this supposed to disprove the Deuterocanon?

The point was to prove that the roman church had nothing to do with deciding on any canon. The earliest version of any modern canon comes from Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, in 367.

There is no mention of canon from the romans until 904 under Damasus.

Then, there is the fable of Ignatius that is still used as "proof" of rome's early leadership of the Church.