[tomdstone]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

I have my Bible (KJV 1611) and that is all I need.

If you read the book by Gaon Saadia ben Joseph Al-Fayyumi : “Emunotve-Deot “ or Beliefs and Opinions, you might understand that there are natural sources of knowledge such as reason and logic which in no way contradict divine revelation, but rather complement and support revealed religion. You will find further developments of this theme in the 34th chapter of Book I of Guide for the Perplexed (Moreh Nevukhim) by Moses ben Maimon.

[Alvin Moss]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

This article appears to contradict the Solutrean hypothesis.

Isn't that the crackpot theory that the Indian Hamites are actually Frenchmen?

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

Not true. The mtDNAX2a genetic markers found in ancient and modern Native American populations is consistent with the Solutrean hypothesis. Further, there are similarities in Solutrean and Clovis technologies that have no known counterparts in Eastern Asia, Siberia or Beringia.

If I were to nitpick I'd say that mtDNA lies outside of archaeological evidence. Also, I should disregard that entire blurb based on lack of reliable sources provided.

But, I'm a really nice person, so instead I'll provide a couple of citations which dispute your claim. Citation 1, citation 2.

Now, about the technology. I don't know much about you, but I think it's safe to assume you've never done experimental archaeology in your life, and therefore have never seen flintknapping technology in action. This is an issue that has nothing to do with the fact that scientific and religious paradigms are mutually exclusive, so I won't dwell too much on it, but: here is a picture of Solutrean points, and here is a picture of a Clovis point. There are two differences between them which should be obvious even for an untrained eye: 1) shape, 2) the long "flute" flaking present only on Clovis points. Basically, the Solutrean points are simple and ugly, and Clovis points are very complex/difficult to produce. These are quite big differences in terms of stone technology.

Now, I could spend the next half hour listing academic sources debunking the details of the presumed Clovis/Solutrean technological similarities. But what's the point? You are going to simply ignore it and start arguing about something totally unrelated. I'm beginning to wonder, is that because I'm a woman, or is that because you think that I'm not white due to my name?

If it's neither - maybe you just forget things which do not fit into your religious paradigm easily - I would like to remind you that you have forgotten to explain what is your reason to believe that some skills or types of intelligence are better than others, which is a question I have asked you here.

Guy getting tired of this says, "Says who?".

I know, right? At this point Mr. Stone really should remember that Google Scholar is his friend.

Who really cares? Not me. I have my Bible (KJV 1611) and that is all I need.
It will never steer me wrong
2 Timothy 3:16

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”

Thank you, Mr. Taylor, for this beautiful demonstration of how a truly religious person thinks.

[Thomas Taylor]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

Not true. The mtDNAX2a genetic markers found in ancient and modern Native American populations is consistent with the Solutrean hypothesis. Further, there are similarities in Solutrean and Clovis technologies that have no known counterparts in Eastern Asia, Siberia or Beringia.

Who really cares? Not me. I have my Bible (KJV 1611) and that is all I need.
It will never steer me wrong
2 Timothy 3:16


“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”



YIC
TT

[Didymus Much]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

Not true. The mtDNAX2a genetic markers found in ancient and modern Native American populations...

Guy getting tired of this says, "Says who?".

[tomdstone]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

Archaeological data contradicts the Solutrean hypothesis ...

Not true. The mtDNAX2a genetic markers found in ancient and modern Native American populations is consistent with the Solutrean hypothesis. Further, there are similarities in Solutrean and Clovis technologies that have no known counterparts in Eastern Asia, Siberia or Beringia.

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

...you have to choose between the Bible and science,..

No.

You are lying to yourself, Mr. Stone. You have already chosen the Bible and rejected science, by deciding to believe the Bible and make up additional "evidence" to support your preconceived notion, and ignoring evidence which shows that events described in the Gospels did not happen.

It's nothing to be ashamed of. As I said, millions of Christians do the same. However, if I may make a tiny recommendation in this regard. There are so many shades of Christianity, and most of these churches don't even chose the entire Bible, but rather cherry-pick a few verses which sound nice and ignore the other 90%.

The Landover Baptist Church is the only church I am aware of, which does not ignore any part of the Bible. Not the genocides, not the misogyny, not the homophobia, not the xenophobia, not the support for slavery, which fill the Bible page after page after page.

Since you have already made your decision to follow the Bible and ignore science, I would recommend that you join this church. You wouldn't want to be a part of a church which ignores 90% of its holy text, would you now?

This article appears to contradict the Solutrean hypothesis.

Archaeological data contradicts the Solutrean hypothesis as well. Again, that's the beauty of science - the ideas which have no supporting evidence fade away. Unfortunately, some seem to keep on living in popular media long after science has moved on.

[handmaiden]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolores de Barriga
...you have to choose between the Bible and science,..

No.

Then you may wish to obtain a recommendation for a good chiropractor.

[tomdstone]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

* I was reading a very interesting article about it recently, unfortunately I forgot which journal it was in, maybe Smithsonian Magazine? I wish I could find it to provide a proper citation. Anyway, based on the available data it seems to be one of the oldest myths of all humanity, which I suppose would make it even more "real" than Jesus, according to your own definition of what constitutes proof for something/someone being real.

EDIT:
This is not exactly the reference I was looking for, but it's close enough, and it's beautifully rich in data.

This article appears to contradict the Solutrean hypothesis.

[tomdstone]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

...you have to choose between the Bible and science,...

No.

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

Of course not. I already discussed the example of George Washington and the cherry tree.

And here we are going back to the problem what constitutes reliable data and for whom. George Washington is a real person within the scientific paradigm, as we have his remains, documents written and signed by him, as well as detailed accounts of the slaves he owned and even of slaves his adopted son sired, etc, etc. Therefore, we have plenty of reliable information about his existence. No atheist will object to that, and even if somebody did we could exhume his remains and let a forensic anthropologist examine them to confirm whether those remains correspond to the description of Washington in his last days of life.

Nevertheless, the fact that there are stories about something or someone does not necessarily mean that some of these stories are true, or even that the protagonist of these stories is real. According to the Bible, unicorns are very strong beasts; does that, coupled with Medieval imagery, make unicorns real? The myth of the Cosmic Hunt* is quite widespread among Eurasian and North American Indian mythologies - does that make the hunter who hunts in the sky a real person? Also, dragons appear in many mythologies, from Chinese to Medieval Europe, does that make them real?

The reason why we started this conversation in the first place, was your inability to see the difference between what constitutes evidence for an atheist/agnostic, and what constitutes evidence for a believer. While for a believer the Bible constitutes all necessary proof, for an atheist it does not, because of lack of confirmation from independent sources and because of all of the alternative facts described in it, which we have previously discussed, and you did not have any objections on this subject.

Again - there is nothing wrong in rejecting science and history and believing that the Bible is 100% correct. Millions of religious people do it all the time. But, you cannot eat your cake and have it too, you have to choose between the Bible and science, these two paradigms are simply too contradictory to be reconciled.


___________
* I was reading a very interesting article about it recently, unfortunately I forgot which journal it was in, maybe Smithsonian Magazine? I wish I could find it to provide a proper citation. Anyway, based on the available data it seems to be one of the oldest myths of all humanity, which I suppose would make it even more "real" than Jesus, according to your own definition of what constitutes proof for something/someone being real.

EDIT:
This is not exactly the reference I was looking for, but it's close enough, and it's beautifully rich in data.

[tomdstone]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

Is this what you are trying to prove here?

Of course not. I already discussed the example of George Washington and the cherry tree.

[tomdstone]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

You could have been kind enough to provide a direct link.

No. I have already reported that the moderator has deleted several of my links, claiming that they are propaganda, etc.

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

It is easy to check that The New York Times, and as well other newspapers, have reported the trip of Nicholas Roerich to India and the evidence he gave for Jesus’ trip to India.

Since when are newspapers a reliable source of scientific information?

And as well, Swami Abhedananda confirmed the details of the visit of Jesus to India. Please see the books:
Roerich: Heart of Asia
Roerich: Altai Himalaya

You could have been kind enough to provide a direct link.

Very interesting indeed. I knew this name before; I do enjoy his art. Anyway, while the account given by him in these two sources cannot be verified, we don't know if he made up these stories or not.

Let's assume for a minute that we trust Roerich, and that he really interviewed several people without an interpreter - because interpreters have a way of skewing things to make the researcher happy. Also, let's assume that all people whom he presumably interviewed gave him honest accounts of stories they have really heard from their elders.

Got it, we trust these oral histories 100%.

This is what these people presumably said:

Christ... did not die on the cross, but only lost consciousness. The disciples took away His body, secreted it and cured Him. Later, Issa was taken to Srinagar, where He taught the people. And there He died. The tomb of the Teacher is in the basement of a private house. It is said that an inscription exists there stating that the son of Joseph was buried there.

So that means Jesus did not die for your sins. That means that your sins cannot be forgiven. That means we are all going to Hell.

Also, that means that Jesus died just like everybody else, and was not resurrected, which means He was not the Son of God but just some random dude who liked traveling a lot. Also, He was a cheater who allowed all these false accounts in the Gospels to be written about Him.

Is this what you are trying to prove here? Because this is the source you told me to read. So that could mean two things, either you agree with this account or you didn't even bother to check what Roerich actually said and instead you trusted some another Authority on this issue. I'm not sure which one is worse.

Swami Abhedananda: Journey into Kashmir and Tibet.

Instead of an account of a person claiming to have seen a presumably ancient document, I want to see that document. Hearsay is not evidence. If I told you that I saw a document which says that I own the house of your parents, and their land, and their bank accounts, and all of the other possessions of your family, would you believe me without actually seeing such document?

*** Disclaimer***

The statement above was for illustrational purposes only and I am not actually claiming to be the rightful owner of your family possessions, so please don't send me any money.

***End of disclaimer***

It is somewhat curious that defenders of this site would bring up the issue of hoaxes.

I am not a defender of anything. I am merely an anthropologist trying to conduct her fieldwork. No, don't worry - you are not part of it in any way, I would never conduct research on human subjects before acquiring informed consent. Also, I am not a Baptist, I am of Catholic background but have lost my faith after reading the Bible and the history of Christianity.

Also, I see that you have declined to engage in discussion about the ahistoricity of events described in the Gospels beyond the life and death of Jesus. I will assume that your silence means that you agree with what I said on this subject.

[tomdstone]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

It's always overlooked for the simple fact that it is a hoax. It has been proven to be a hoax even when its original "discoverer" Nikolai A. Notovitch was still alive.

It is easy to check that The New York Times, and as well other newspapers, have reported the trip of Nicholas Roerich to India and the evidence he gave for Jesus’ trip to India. And as well, Swami Abhedananda confirmed the details of the visit of Jesus to India. Please see the books:
Roerich: Heart of Asia
Roerich: Altai Himalaya
Swami Abhedananda: Journey into Kashmir and Tibet.
It is somewhat curious that defenders of this site would bring up the issue of hoaxes.