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  • Father Thomas Martin
    Pedantic Pubescent Pedophile Papist Proselytizer
    • Jul 2007
    • 1015

    #1

    Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception

    Today we commemorate the Immaculate Conception-that is the doctrine that Mary was conceived free of original sin.



    From the first moment of her existence, she was preserved by God from the lack of sanctifying grace that afflicts mankind, and that she was instead filled with divine grace. It is further believed that she lived a life completely free from sin. Her immaculate conception in the womb of her mother, by normal sexual intercourse (Christian tradition identifies her parents as Sts. JoachimAnne), should not be confused with the doctrine of the virginal conception of her son Jesus.

    The feast of the Immaculate Conception, celebrated on December 8, was established in 1476 by Pope Sixtus IV. He did not define the doctrine as a dogma, thus leaving Roman Catholics freedom to believe in it or not without being accused of heresy; this freedom was reiterated by the Council of Trent. The existence of the feast was a strong indication of the Church's belief in the Immaculate Conception, even before its 19th century definition as a dogma.
    The Immaculate Conception was solemnly defined as a dogma by Pope Pius IX in his constitution Ineffabilis Deus, on December 8, 1854.



    The Catholic Church believes the dogma is supported by Scripture (e.g. Mary's being greeted by Angel Gabriel as "full of grace" or "highly favoured"), as well as either directly or indirectly by the writings of many of the Church Fathers, and often calls Mary the Blessed Virgin (Luke 1:48). Catholic theology maintains that, since Jesus became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, it was fitting that she be completely free of sin for expressing her fiat. (Ott, Fund., Bk 3, Pt. 3, Ch. 2, §3.1.e).
    For the Catholic Church the dogma of the Immaculate Conception gained additional significance from the apparitions of Our Lady of Lourdes in 1858. In Lourdes a 14-year-old girl, Bernadette Soubirous, claimed a beautiful lady appeared to her. The lady identified herself as "the Immaculate Conception" and the faithful believe her to be the Blessed Virgin Mary.
    In the Catholic Church, the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception is a Holy Day of Obligation, except where conferences of bishops have decided, with the approval of the Holy See, not to maintain it as such. It is a public holiday in some countries where Roman Catholicism is predominant e.g. Italy. In the Philippines, although this is not a public holiday, the predominance of Catholic Schools make it almost a holiday.

    Okay, let's see how you refute it:



    The doctrine is generally not shared by either Eastern Orthodoxy or by Christians of Reformed or Protestant traditions.
    Protestants reject the doctrine because they do not consider the development of dogmatic theology to be authoritative apart from biblical exegesis, and that Mariology in general, including the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, is not taught explicitly in their interpretation of the Bible. It is accepted by some Anglo-Catholics, but is rejected by most in the Anglican Communion (and also by the Old Catholic Churches). In the Book of Common Prayer, December 8 — the "Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary" — is a "lesser commemoration", whose observance is optional. However, members of the Society of Mary are required to attend Mass that day.
    Protestants argue that God would also need to have intervened in the conception of Mary's mother, and her mother, and so on down the ages. Catholicism's response to this would be that only Mary had to be kept free from sin, since she directly was going to bear Christ; her ancestors were not.
    A further argument put forward by Protestants is from Mark 10:18 and the parallel Luke 18:9. When Jesus is addressed as "Good teacher" (NIV Mk 10:17), He is quoted as replying "No one is good - except God alone". It is posited that in doing so Christ clearly teaches that no one is without sin, whilst leaving room for the conclusion that he is in fact God incarnate. However, Catholics respond that this phrase is meant in the general sense.
    Some Protestants also teach that our sinful nature is inherited from the father. Since Jesus of Nazareth did not have an earthly father, he did not inherit a sinful nature; hence, Mary did not need to be immaculately conceived. These Protestants base this view on Romans 5:12 which states that sin entered the world through a man, Adam (even though Eve sinned before Adam) and 1 Corinthians 11:3 which says that the head of every woman is the man. In response, however, Catholics hold that the sin of Adam and Eve stains a person's soul, and both parents only contribute to the body, meaning God allows this to happen, and can certainly preserve someone.
    Some Protestant groups of more recent origin, such as the Restoration Movement, do not believe in original sin. Consequently, they believe in the immaculate conception of everyone, not only of Mary.
    For a response to these arguments, see below.


    Now for some scriptural sources:



    In his Apostolic Constitution Ineffabilis Deus (8 December 1854), which officially defined the Immaculate Conception as dogma for the Roman Catholic Church, Pope Pius IX primarily appealed to the text of Genesis 3:15, where the serpent was told by God, "I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed." According to the Roman Catholic understanding, this was a prophecy that foretold of a "woman" who would always be at enmity with the serpent — that is, a woman who would never be under the power of sin, nor in bondage to the serpent.
    Some Roman Catholic theologians have also found Scriptural evidence for the Immaculate Conception in the angel Gabriel's greeting to Mary at the Annunciation, (Luke 1:28). The English translation, "Hail, Full of Grace," or "Hail, Favored One," is based on the Greek of Luke 1:28, "Χαίρε, Κεχαριτωμένη", Chaire kecharitomene, a phrase which can most literally be translated: "Rejoice, you who have been graced". The latter word, kecharitomene, is the Passive voice, Present Perfect participle of the verb "to grace" in the feminine gender, vocative case; therefore the Greek syntax indicates that the action of the verb has been fully completed in the past, with results continuing into the future. Put another way, it means that the subject (Mary) was graced fully and completely at some time in the past, and continued in that fully graced state. The angel's salutation does not refer to the Incarnation of Christ in Mary's womb, as he proceeds to say: "thou shalt conceive in thy womb…" (Luke 1:31).
    The Church Fathers, almost from the beginning of Church History, found further Scriptural evidence by comparing the figure of Eve to the figure of Mary. St. Justin Martyr said that Mary was a kind of New Eve, "in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin." (Dialogue with Trypho, 100) Tertullian argued in the same manner, saying, "As Eve had believed the serpent, so Mary believed the angel. The delinquency which the one occasioned by believing, the other by believing effaced." (On the Flesh of Christ, 17) St. Irenaeus declared that Mary became "the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race," because "what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith." (Against Heresies, Book III, cap. 22, 4) St. Jerome coined the phrase, "Death came through Eve, but life has come through Mary," (Letter XXII, To Eustochium, 21). In addition "Blessed shall be the fruit of thy womb" is a reward for obedience to God by keeping the commandments.[2]
    The Catholic Encyclopedia of 1914, however, states that these scriptures merely serve as corroborative evidence assuming that the dogma is already well established, and that there is insufficient evidence to prove the dogma to someone basing their beliefs solely on biblical interpretation:
    No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture. …The salutation of the angel Gabriel — chaire kecharitomene, Hail, full of grace (Luke 1:28) indicates a unique abundance of grace… but the term kecharitomene (full of grace) serves only as an illustration, not as a proof of the dogma. ― Catholic Encyclopedia — Immaculate Conceptionroof from Scripture
    Scripture verses sometimes used to show her Immaculate Conception (other than Luke 1:28) are
    "And you shall make the ark of testimony of incorruptible wood And you shall gild it with pure gold, you shall gild it within and without; and you shall make for it golden wreaths twisted round about." (Exodus 25:10-11 Brenton LXX)
    "So I made an ark of boards of incorruptible wood, and I hewed tables of stone like the first, and I went up to the mountain, and the two tables were in my hand." (Deuteronomy 10:3 Brenton LXX)
    Other translations use the words "setim," "acacia," "indestructible," and "hard" to describe the wood used. In any case, Moses used this wood because it was regarded as very durable and "incorruptible." Mary is regarded by Catholic and Orthodox Christians as being the Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament and therefore it would seem fitting that the New Ark likewise be made "incorruptible" or "immaculate." The basis for called the Virgin Mary the Ark of the Covenant is based partly on the parallels of the Ark in Second Samuel 6 with the Nativity narrative of the Gospel of Luke. The Early Church Fathers have called Christ, the Church, and the Virgin Mary each at one point as being symbolized by the Ark. [3]
    Mary is also shown as being totally faithful towards Christ, especially during his Passion, when he was abandoned by His followers, even the apostles (apart from the young John). Mary's complete faithfulness could be the fruit of being sinless, as she could not then reject Christ in the darkest hour. In support to this doctrine, it also does not appear fit that Christ, God-incarnate, should be born in sinful vessel. The Immaculate Conception also compares to the original righteousness of Adam and Eve.


    And the dogmatic definition:



    Pope Pius IX defined ex cathedra the dogma of the Immaculate Conception on 8 December 1854. The Pope stressed that Mary's sinlessness was not due to her own merits, but truly, by the merits of her son, Jesus.
    "We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which holds that the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful."
    Simply stated, Mary possessed sanctifying grace from the first instant of her existence and was free from the lack of grace caused by the "original or first sin" at the beginning of human history.


    So COME HOME-your mother hasn't heard from you in decades!
    ACTS 5:29

    But Peter and the apostles said in reply, "We must obey God rather than men."
    There you have it-so WHAT'S STOPPING YOU COWARDS?
  • Brother Guy Bayard
    Anvil of the Antipodes
    True Christian™
    • Jul 2007
    • 1271

    #2
    Re: Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception

    How much longer is this Papist going to force his false religion down our throats?

    I resent some catholic boy buggerer preaching his pagan religion here. Can i suggest quarantine?
    The devil, whose business is to pervert the truth, mimics the exact circumstance of the Divine Sacraments. He baptises his believers and promises forgiveness of sins...he celebrates the oblation of bread, and brings in the symbol of the resurrection. Let us therefore acknowledge the craftiness of the devil, who copied certain things of those that be divine."
    Tertullian (155-222 AD) from The Prescription Against Heretics' Ch XL

    Comment

    • Nobar King
      Municipal Code Archivist - Deuteronomy 28:58
      Christ's Guardian
      True Christian™
      • Sep 2007
      • 23748

      #3
      Re: Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception

      Or maybe move the thread to the proper forum?
      May you be a blessing to every life you touch.

      Comment

      • lilith
        Night Hag
        • Sep 2006
        • 1232

        #4
        Re: Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception

        Okay, let's see how you refute it:


        Well gee Father Tom,how about:



        BOLL*CKS!
        In order to be old & wise,you must first be young & stupid.

        Comment

        • Pastor Ezekiel
          Putting the "stud" back in Bible Study
           
          • Sep 2006
          • 78552

          #5
          Re: Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception

          I have relocated this papist claptrap to its proper thread.

          What amazes me is that this guy who alleges to be a ring-kissing mary worshiper has to resort to the notoriously inaccurate wiccianpedia as a source for his unBiblical lies. I'm starting to suspect that he's just in here posing as a catlicker. Probably one of those damned Dawkins followers.
          Who Will Jesus Damn?

          Here is a partial list from just a few scripture verses:

          Hypocrites (Matthew 24:51), The Unforgiving (Mark 11:26), Homosexuals (Romans 1:26, 27), Fornicators (Romans 1:29), The Wicked (Romans 1:29), The Covetous (Romans 1:29), The Malicious (Romans 1:29), The Envious (Romans 1:29), Murderers (Romans 1:29), The Deceitful (Romans 1:29), Backbiters (Romans 1:30), Haters of God (Romans 1:30), The Despiteful (Romans 1:30), The Proud (Romans 1:30), Boasters (Romans 1:30), Inventors of evil (Romans 1:30), Disobedient to parents (Romans 1:30), Covenant breakers (Romans 1:31), The Unmerciful (Romans 1:31), The Implacable (Romans 1:31), The Unrighteous (1Corinthians 6:9), Idolaters (1Corinthians 6:9), Adulterers (1Corinthians 6:9), The Effeminate (1Corinthians 6:9), Thieves (1Corinthians 6:10), Drunkards (1Corinthians 6:10), Reviler (1Corinthians 6:10), Extortioners (1Corinthians 6:10), The Fearful (Revelation 21:8), The Unbelieving (Revelation 21:8), The Abominable (Revelation 21:8), Whoremongers (Revelation 21:8), Sorcerers (Revelation 21:8), All Liars (Revelation 21:8)

          Need Pastoral Advice? Contact me privately at PastorEzekiel@landoverbaptist.net TODAY!!

          Comment

          • Bryan Tamariki
            Forum Member
            Forum Member
            • Aug 2007
            • 285

            #6
            Re: Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception

            Originally posted by Brother Guy View Post
            How much longer is this Papist going to force his false religion down our throats?

            I resent some catholic boy buggerer preaching his pagan religion here. Can i suggest quarantine?
            I agree.
            Joshua 24:15
            And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

            Comment

            • see_the_light
              True Christian™
              True Christian™
              • Nov 2006
              • 1386

              #7
              Re: Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception

              The only part of that rubish that might be interesting is the part were choirboy fan says

              "Protestants argue that God would also need to have intervened in the conception of Mary's mother, and her mother, and so on down the ages. "

              and that leads to that futile discussion about JESUS being a joo, the conception was without the "macula" of having JOOs as relatives.

              That's it, no big deal, all TRUE CHRISTIAN WOMEN of this forum would fit the bill, but at the time and place it was considered noteworthy and cat-a-licks (as usual) made a (wrong) big deal about nothing.

              PRAISE THE LORD!

              Comment

              • Pastor Isaac Peters
                Senior Pastor
                Ex-liberal; converted to True Christianity™
                Always Biblically correct
                True Christian™
                • Sep 2006
                • 10639

                #8
                Re: Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception

                Major Tom, according to this, belief in your Mary-hailing mumbo-jumbo is necessary for salvation. So how were Romanists saved before 1854? Of course, we True Christians™ know the answer: Unless they repent of their death-cookie-eating and become real Christians, they aren't saved at all.

                Also, this provides the Scripture verses necessary to refute your papist goddess-worship.
                This church is dedicated to preaching True Christianity™ and the King James Bible exactly as they are, with no alterations to make them more politically correct for modern liberals. If you think that we've misquoted or twisted Scripture or quoted any verse out of context, please explain in detail how we've done so. Otherwise, if what you read on this site offends you, then you're offended by Almighty God and His Word, not by us.

                Questions to ask liberal "Christians"Things that the Bible doesn't sayTolerance

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                Comment

                • Father Thomas Martin
                  Pedantic Pubescent Pedophile Papist Proselytizer
                  • Jul 2007
                  • 1015

                  #9
                  Re: Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception

                  Originally posted by Pastor Isaac Peters View Post
                  Major Tom, according to this, belief in your Mary-hailing mumbo-jumbo is necessary for salvation. So how were Romanists saved before 1854? Of course, we True Christians™ know the answer: Unless they repent of their death-cookie-eating and become real Christians, they aren't saved at all.

                  Also, this provides the Scripture verses necessary to refute your papist goddess-worship.
                  1. That I believe belongs to a sect which was excommunicated quite a while ago.

                  2. Let me bring up the counterpoints:

                  a. "My spirit rejoices in God my Savior" (God was the one who saved her from original sin at her conception, so God was her Savior!)
                  b. "graven images" (If we shouldn't make images, then that big banner on your site (and your user avis) are SINS then, right?)
                  c. She IS the Mother of God-Or do you say Jesus isn't God? (I know you don't, because you Modalists say God is a single person who acts under three disguises-that's why you attribute several OT passages to Jesus)
                  Scriptural proof: Luke 1:43 (Elizabeth says "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?")

                  To defend the Rosary:

                  The prayers are Scrptural!

                  Mt 6:9-13 (Our Father)
                  Rev 4:8 (Glory Be)
                  Luke 1:28 (Hail Mary, 1st part)

                  How to answer your criticism of repitition:

                  Is 6:3 (Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of Hosts-the heavenly song of the angel choirs)


                  Matter of fact, even Luther believed in her perpetual virginity and her being the Mother of God, as did Calvin and Zwingli.

                  First it is important to note that the Bible does not say that these "brothers and sisters" of Jesus were children of Mary.

                  Second, the word for brother (or sister), adelphos (adelpha) in Greek, denotes a brother or sister, or near kinsman. Aramaic and other Semitic languages could not distinguish between a blood brother or sister and a cousin, for example. Hence, John the Baptist, a cousin of Jesus (the son of Elizabeth, cousin of Mary) would be called "a brother (adelphos) of Jesus." In the plural, the word means a community based on identity of origin or life. Additionally, the word adelphos is used for (1) male children of the same parents (Mt 1:2); (2) male descendants of the same parents (Acts 7:23); (3) male children of the same mother (Gal 1:19); (4) people of the same nationality (Acts 3:17); (5) any man, a neighbor (Lk 10:29); (6) persons united by a common interest (Mt 5:47); (7) persons united by a common calling (Rev 22:9); (8) mankind (Mt 25:40); (9) the disciples (Mt 23:8); and (10) believers (Mt 23:8). (From Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Thomas Nelson, Publisher.)

                  A second objection to Mary's virginity arises from the use of the word, heos, in Matthew's gospel.
                  Mt 1:25He (Joseph) had no relations with her until (heos) she bore a son, and he named him Jesus. The Greek and the Semitic use of the word heos (until or before) does not imply anything about what happens after the time indicated. In this case, there is no necessary implication that Joseph and Mary had sexual contact or other children after Jesus.
                  A third objection to the perpetual virginity of Mary arises from the use of the word, prototokos, translated "first-born" in Luke's gospel.
                  Lk 2:7(Mary) gave birth to her firstborn son (prototokos). She wrapped him in swaddling clothes and laid him in a manger ... The Greek word prototokos is used of Christ as born of Mary and of Christ's relationship to His Father (Col 1:25). As the word does not imply other children of God the Father, neither does it imply other children of Mary. The term "first-born" was a legal term under the Mosaic Law (Ex 6:14) referring to the first male child born to Jewish parents regardless of any other children following or not. Hence when Jesus is called the "first-born" of Mary it does not mean that there were second or third-born children.
                  ACTS 5:29

                  But Peter and the apostles said in reply, "We must obey God rather than men."
                  There you have it-so WHAT'S STOPPING YOU COWARDS?

                  Comment

                  • Pastor Isaac Peters
                    Senior Pastor
                    Ex-liberal; converted to True Christianity™
                    Always Biblically correct
                    True Christian™
                    • Sep 2006
                    • 10639

                    #10
                    Re: Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception

                    Originally posted by Father Thomas Martin View Post
                    1. That I believe belongs to a sect which was excommunicated quite a while ago.
                    You're thinking of Mother Mary's Garden, a different group, and one so over-the-top with Mary-worship that even you people had to be rid of them. Anyway, do you Romanists consider it to be teaching necessary for salvation, or don't you?

                    2. Let me bring up the counterpoints:

                    a. "My spirit rejoices in God my Savior" (God was the one who saved her from original sin at her conception, so God was her Savior!)
                    Then does this:

                    1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                    mean that we were all immaculately conceived, just as you say Mary was?
                    b. "graven images" (If we shouldn't make images, then that big banner on your site (and your user avis) are SINS then, right?)
                    Do you ever see us bowing down to them or serving them (Ex. 20:5)?
                    c. She IS the Mother of God-Or do you say Jesus isn't God? (I know you don't, because you Modalists say God is a single person who acts under three disguises-that's why you attribute several OT passages to Jesus)
                    Scriptural proof: Luke 1:43 (Elizabeth says "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?")
                    What does that have to do with the supposed Immaculate Conception?

                    To defend the Rosary:

                    The prayers are Scrptural!

                    Mt 6:9-13 (Our Father)
                    Rev 4:8 (Glory Be)
                    Luke 1:28 (Hail Mary, 1st part)
                    Then you admit that the Hail Mary as you say it is not in the Bible.

                    How to answer your criticism of repitition:

                    Is 6:3 (Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of Hosts-the heavenly song of the angel choirs)
                    What does that have to do with saying your made-up prayer over and over while counting beads?


                    Matter of fact, even Luther believed in her perpetual virginity and her being the Mother of God, as did Calvin and Zwingli.
                    Yes, and? Do our Web graphics on which you're so fixated say anything about Landover Lutheran Church?

                    First it is important to note that the Bible does not say that these "brothers and sisters" of Jesus were children of Mary.

                    Second, the word for brother (or sister), adelphos (adelpha) in Greek, denotes a brother or sister, or near kinsman. Aramaic and other Semitic languages could not distinguish between a blood brother or sister and a cousin, for example. Hence, John the Baptist, a cousin of Jesus (the son of Elizabeth, cousin of Mary) would be called "a brother (adelphos) of Jesus." In the plural, the word means a community based on identity of origin or life. Additionally, the word adelphos is used for (1) male children of the same parents (Mt 1:2); (2) male descendants of the same parents (Acts 7:23); (3) male children of the same mother (Gal 1:19); (4) people of the same nationality (Acts 3:17); (5) any man, a neighbor (Lk 10:29); (6) persons united by a common interest (Mt 5:47); (7) persons united by a common calling (Rev 22:9); (8) mankind (Mt 25:40); (9) the disciples (Mt 23:8); and (10) believers (Mt 23:8). (From Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Thomas Nelson, Publisher.)
                    So the brothers of Jesus were "any man, a neighbor" or "persons united by a common calling"? Do you know what it means to prove too much?

                    A second objection to Mary's virginity arises from the use of the word, heos, in Matthew's gospel.
                    Mt 1:25He (Joseph) had no relations with her until (heos) she bore a son, and he named him Jesus. The Greek and the Semitic use of the word heos (until or before) does not imply anything about what happens after the time indicated. In this case, there is no necessary implication that Joseph and Mary had sexual contact or other children after Jesus.
                    A third objection to the perpetual virginity of Mary arises from the use of the word, prototokos, translated "first-born" in Luke's gospel.
                    Lk 2:7(Mary) gave birth to her firstborn son (prototokos). She wrapped him in swaddling clothes and laid him in a manger ... The Greek word prototokos is used of Christ as born of Mary and of Christ's relationship to His Father (Col 1:25). As the word does not imply other children of God the Father, neither does it imply other children of Mary. The term "first-born" was a legal term under the Mosaic Law (Ex 6:14) referring to the first male child born to Jewish parents regardless of any other children following or not. Hence when Jesus is called the "first-born" of Mary it does not mean that there were second or third-born children.
                    Typical Catholic, arguing that Scripture means just about anything except what the words say. You don't have much confidence in the Almighty to preserve His words, do you?

                    Further, do you believe in the perpetual virginity of Joseph as well?

                    Finally, even if we accept all of that as true, how does it prove the supposed Immaculate Conception?
                    This church is dedicated to preaching True Christianity™ and the King James Bible exactly as they are, with no alterations to make them more politically correct for modern liberals. If you think that we've misquoted or twisted Scripture or quoted any verse out of context, please explain in detail how we've done so. Otherwise, if what you read on this site offends you, then you're offended by Almighty God and His Word, not by us.

                    Questions to ask liberal "Christians"Things that the Bible doesn't sayTolerance

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                    Comment

                    • Brother Temperance
                      Senior Usher
                      True Christian™ missionary to the Unsaved Kingdom
                      A very nice young man
                      True Christian™
                      • Sep 2006
                      • 15621

                      #11
                      Re: Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception

                      Originally posted by Pastor Isaac Peters View Post
                      You're thinking of Mother Mary's Garden, a different group, and one so over-the-top with Mary-worship that even you people had to be rid of them. Anyway, do you Romanists consider it to be teaching necessary for salvation, or don't you?

                      Then does this:

                      1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                      mean that we were all immaculately conceived, just as you say Mary was?
                      Do you ever see us bowing down to them or serving them (Ex. 20:5)?
                      What does that have to do with the supposed Immaculate Conception?

                      Then you admit that the Hail Mary as you say it is not in the Bible.

                      What does that have to do with saying your made-up prayer over and over while counting beads?


                      Yes, and? Do our Web graphics on which you're so fixated say anything about Landover Lutheran Church?

                      So the brothers of Jesus were "any man, a neighbor" or "persons united by a common calling"? Do you know what it means to prove too much?

                      Typical Catholic, arguing that Scripture means just about anything except what the words say. You don't have much confidence in the Almighty to preserve His words, do you?

                      Further, do you believe in the perpetual virginity of Joseph as well?

                      Finally, even if we accept all of that as true, how does it prove the supposed Immaculate Conception?
                      The Papist's gone very quiet all of a sudden...hello? Any bead-counters out there?
                      O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it--for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.



                      God being truth, justice, goodness, beauty, power, and life, man is falsehood, iniquity, evil, ugliness, impotence, and death. God being master, man is the slave. Incapable of finding justice, truth, and eternal life by his own effort, he can attain them only through a divine revelation... he who desires to worship God must harbor no childish illusions about the matter, but bravely renounce his liberty and humanity.

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