A False Religion?

[Newton]

Surely there is no such thing as a false religion? A religion is defined as; "A set of beliefs held by a human community". False is defined as something that is contrary to a statement known to be true.

By this logic a religion cannot be false, since all the followers of that religion believe it to be true, and thus is not false.

Whether the religion agrees with your/our beliefs is a different matter entirely, but it is not a false religion, it something that we as Christians disagree with.

[Brother Temperance]

Re: A False Religion?

Surely there is no such thing as a false religion? A religion is defined as; "A set of beliefs held by a human community". False is defined as something that is contrary to a statement known to be true.

Quiet, you secular loon. God's Word is known to be true, so vile cults such as Catholicism, Unitarianism, Islam, Hinduism and Judaism, which are all contrary to God's Word, are all false by definition.

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: A False Religion?

Here is your error, Newton: "A set of beliefs held by a human community".

That is true of superstitions, but not of religions. A religion makes specific, pragmatic claims about the universe.

For example, Christianity says that God exists, that Jesus was the Son of God and walked the Earth, that the Earth itself was created 6000 years ago (some calculation is required to find that result, but it is Biblical nonetheless), and that souls survive death and are destined for either Heaven or Hell.

But the Hindu sayeth to the Christian, "Nay, sahib! There are many gods, the universe has existed for endless kalpas and is periodically rebirthed by Brahma, souls do not die but are reincarnated into various mortal vessels."

Now then! Both these religions make specific claims about reality. ONLY ONE OF THESE RELIGIONS CAN BE RIGHT.

Mormons say that Joseph Smith had some golden tablets and received revelations from the angel Moroni, among which was a revelation that Jesus flew from Israel to Central America after His crucifixion and preached to the Aztecs for awhile.

Again, it's a specific claim about the real world...and it's not what Christianity says!

So! Christians have a belief-set about Reality. Anything that contradicts these beliefs about how the real world works is, by definition, a false belief system -- a false religion. Because Jesus was Truth incarnate!

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

To bore you a bit longer: a True Christian must believe that his religion alone is the Truth. Therefore a True Christian must believe that everyone else is WRONG.

Fundamentally, finally, and fatally WRONG.

You, as a social theorist and rationalist, may find that fantastic. But to Christians it is a simple fact. It is the way Reality is.

~~ OEJ

[Newton]

Re: A False Religion?

You are a catholic.

The Catholic Church is the Universal Church. Lets get our terminology right first.

When we refer to "catholics" we are refering to Roman Catholics.

I disagree with some of the Roman Catholic practices, but not all. For example, I agree with confession of sins, its a good practice to get into.

But they believe, as I do, and as you do too in the whole point of Christianity, which is summed up in John 3:16, which I'm sure you are familiar with, so I won't post it. So that, by definition makes Roman Catholics Christians.

Do not accuse me of being secular when you do not know me at all. I am a Christian.

They are only false by what you believe, but that does NOT make them false religions.

Atheism makes pragmatic claims about the universe, does that make it a superstition or a religion?

I quoted a definition of religion, so you CANNOT dispute a dictionary definition of it.

Religions in a traditional sense claim that a god exists. Whether the Christian God, or gods such as an animist or Hindu would claim.

I agree, only one religion can be right, but you are getting termilology confused, as I pointed out previously.

I am a Christian, but as you said, I am interested in sociology, social sciences are fundamentally important to holding communities together, and you are reliant, to a degree, on the work of sociologists.

I am not disputing that a true Christian (John 3:16) only has his or her religion to go by. A religion can only be false by your opinion, but that does not make them false religions.

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: A False Religion?

Well, Newton, let's take some of your points in order.

Newton: [Non-Christian religions] are only false by what you believe, but that does NOT make them false religions.

My reply: It certainly does...if and only if I possess the complete, absolute, and oh-so-real TRUTH. Which, as Jesus informed us, He is. You can call Jesus a liar if you want. I'm not going to do that.

Newton: Atheism makes pragmatic claims about the universe, does that make it a superstition or a religion?

My reply: You present a false dichotomy: you pretend that all belief systems must be either a superstition or a religion. But in fact atheism makes a leap of faith: although it is impossible to prove a negative -- the proposition that God does not exist -- atheism proposes to accept just that proposition. It must do so on faith.

Newton: I quoted a definition of religion, so you CANNOT dispute a dictionary definition of it.

My reply: That, Sir, is utter horsesh*t. A dictionary gives a very limited, very cursory description of the meaning of a word. Anyone can see that the concept of "religion" is more complex than can be captured in two or three sentences written by some hack in the back room at Oxford. For instance, Dawkins might define religion as a parasitic belief system propagating in human minds. There are many plausible definitions of every complex phenomenon. To say that one "cannot argue" a dictionary definition is horsecrap.

Newton: Religions in a traditional sense claim that a god exists. Whether the Christian God, or gods such as an animist or Hindu would claim.

My reply: Who do Buddhists think is God? Confucians? Is your claim here relevant to all religions or just to theistic ones?

Your entire view appears to be that of a rationalist and not a True Believer. Christian fundamentalists such as the Landover congregation are absolutists. We believe that there is one truth, and that's it.

The Christian fundamentalist position is the only Biblically defensible one. It is based on plain scripture that says there is only one God, and there is only one truth -- and Christians have it. Other religions say the same thing, but to a Christian that is irrelevant!

It is irrelevant because we already know that those religions are lies.

----

Let's go back to Richard Dawkins and his blasphemous memetic theory. Let's try to get inside the mind of an arch-atheist and see through his eyes.

Several thousand years ago many religions competed for believers in the region we call the Middle East. These religions were systems of belief (melanges of mythology, ethics, legend, folklore, and superstition) expressed in the society through shared rituals, laws, social mores, policies, and attitudes.

Some aspects of these parasitic belief-systems were especially beneficial to their host societies. For instance, commandments about treating other members of the society fairly reduced intra-societal conflict. A belief that the supernatural was on their side bolstered the determination of the tribes when attacked. Certain rituals uplifted and united the participants, unifying the tribe. Some aspects of religion benefited individuals, too. Rituals made them feel good, joyful, blessed. Blood-guilt was assuaged when a warrior felt he had done his killing in the name of God (and it couldn't have been emotionally easy to hack a man to death with a bronze sword).

The tribes competed, fought, formed alliances, betrayed each other. The most effective belief systems helped their host organisms -- their tribe -- compete more effectively. Simultaneously, the less effective aspects of the religions themselves -- rituals that were just boring, ambivalent teachings, counterproductive rules -- atrophied or were replaced with more effective scripture.

Societies compete, and within the societies religions honed themselves. But the religions knew neither good nor evil, neither truth nor lie. Their only "purpose" was to become ultimately effective in capturing the minds of believers.

What might be an especially effective scripture if a religion is to safeguard itself against competing religions?

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Exodus 20:3

That's a no-brainer. How about these verses:

I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. Isaiah 45:5,6

This is exactly where an absolutist religion comes from. Relentless competition over the centuries will always tend toward claims to absolute truth. But I wrote earlier -- or, rather, our imaginary Dawkins wrote -- that the parasitic social organisms we call religions do not actually know anything about truth.


Well, they know no more about truth than a malaria parasite. They know no more about good and evil than a plague bacterium. Their only purpose is to infect as many believers as possible.


If it is advantageous to a religion competing in a particular social setting to claim that God is omnipotent, eternal, and omniscient then the religion will make that claim. If it is advantageous to claim that souls go to Heaven or Hell, the religion will make that claim; if in another social setting it is more advantageous to claim that souls are endlessly reincarnated as other creatures then the religion will claim that instead.

Actual real-world truth has no relevance.

Christianity is as as true, as moral, and as trustworthy as a roundworm burrowing its way into your brain.

Or so our imaginary Richard Dawkins might say.

This is a long post. Sorry. Bloody heck, it must be boring.

NOW THEN! The Bible is a beautiful book, and Jesus (or the fictional character, says Dawkins, that is written as "Jesus") said some rather inspiring and beautiful things.

What must a mature religious parasite do in order to remain viable in an increasingly sophisticated population?

It must appeal to the best and wisest minds in that population (as well as to the hoi polloi). The best and wisest are often the natural leaders. If the religion loses them it is almost certainly doomed.

And so the parasitic organism of Christianity mutates, and incorporates the best moral philosophies and spirituality it can get. (Scripture is much like DNA: it can, when it is in a mutating form, appropriate fragments of DNA from nearly any source imaginable. Some say that Jesus Himself was an appropriation of the resurrected gods Dionysus and Osiris, for instance.) It becomes as beautiful, uplifting, and wonderful as it can...without every losing the barbaric roots of kill-and-be-killed Bronze Age tribalism.

That is how Christianity captured the imaginations of men like Thomas Acquinas and yet remained useful to the Nazis who had "Gott mit Uns" inscribed on their belt buckles.

To the statement "I am a Christian and I know that Jesus is the Truth" our imaginary Dawkins might say, "Yes...well, how does it feel to have your mind under the control of a parasite with the morality of trichina worm?"

----

Of course, because we are Christians we understand that these arguments are utterly fallacious and, indeed, are blasphemous.

He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 1 John 5:10

~~ OEJ

[JennyD]

Re: A False Religion?

Brother Jack, while female, I do grasp most logic quite well. But I'm confused on one point in your post.

Why would the Germans have "Got Mittens?" on their belt buckles? Did they often forget their handwear?

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: A False Religion?

I don't actually know any German. I never expected anyone to read that far down in the post. By that point I was pretty much just making up random sentences.

I suppose the Germans would have wanted their mittens during the Battle of Moscow. Maybe the Fuhrer gave them the belt buckles to remind them. My own mother used to use a large safety pin to fasten my nice woolly mittens securely to the skin of my wrist.

~~ OEJ

[SalvationSeeker]

Re: A False Religion?

You are a catholic.

No, we're not.

The Catholic Church is the Universal Church. Lets get our terminology right first.

When we refer to "catholics" we are refering to Roman Catholics.

The word "Catholic" means universial, but that doesn't make that abomination of a "church" universal.. To claim such is absurd.
That's like saying I would be a planet if my name was Mars.

But they believe, as I do, and as you do too in the whole point of Christianity, which is summed up in John 3:16, which I'm sure you are familiar with, so I won't post it. So that, by definition makes Roman Catholics Christians.

TRUE faith in Jesus requires doing what Jesus tells us to do!
I suggest you try reading Matthew 7:21-23..

Many people think they believe in Jesus and think they're Saved, but Jesus says it isn't so.
Also, try reading Matthew 4:4 where Jesus says that EVERY Word of God is needed. More than needed infact; Vital!

Do not accuse me of being secular when you do not know me at all. I am a Christian.

You're not a Christian, you're a victim of false conversion.
(Ie you only THINK you're Saved.)

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
But he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:21

A religion can only be false by your opinion

Unless the disagreement here is a semantic one:
That you mean that they aren't false in the way that they exist..
Then Jesus disagrees with you.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:
No man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6

Jesus is the truth, thus everything that denies Jesus is the Christ is a lie, and the one thinking so is a liar. (1 John 2:22)
Same with everything that somehow contradicts His teachings:
For being truth, Jesus never lies and is never wrong.

Jesus is the ONLY way, thus all other ways are wrong!

Enter ye in at the strait gate:
For wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Matthew 7:13-14