Circular logic?

[MaroneyBaloney]

I see too frequently that individuals justify their faith--not just Christians--with the infallible truth of their doctrine. However, they justify their doctrine with itself. I see something like this frequently:
"God is real because the Bible proclaims it. And the Bible is a book of truth because the Bible says so." Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's a serious logical fallacy here, and people don't believe it anymore. So does anyone have any better justifications for the truth value of the Bible?

[Levi Jones]

Re: Circular logic?

What more do we need than the Bible? The New Testament is proven by the Old Testament. The New Testament proves itself with its multiple different authors that manage to never contradict one another.

[Dr Laurence Niles]

Re: Circular logic?

I see too frequently that individuals justify their faith--not just Christians--with the infallible truth of their doctrine. However, they justify their doctrine with itself. I see something like this frequently:
"God is real because the Bible proclaims it. And the Bible is a book of truth because the Bible says so." Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's a serious logical fallacy here, and people don't believe it anymore. So does anyone have any better justifications for the truth value of the Bible?

This is a very common pitfall that atheists fall into.

Consider so called evolution. It takes millions of years for something to evolve and the proof is that millions of years has happened because that's how long evolution takes.

It's funny how double standarded atheists can be.



YIC

[Nobar King]

Re: Circular logic?

people don't believe it anymore.

[MaroneyBaloney]

Re: Circular logic?

For the first response, have you considered that the authors of the New Testament, having naturally written it after the Old, may have referenced it to give the illusion of accuracy? And as for the evolution post, that's not what my question was about. Time is intangible and difficult to prove logically, without discredit to the Bible whatsoever.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Circular logic?

I see too frequently that individuals justify their faith--not just Christians--with the infallible truth of their doctrine. However, they justify their doctrine with itself. I see something like this frequently:
"God is real because the Bible proclaims it. And the Bible is a book of truth because the Bible says so." Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's a serious logical fallacy here, and people don't believe it anymore. So does anyone have any better justifications for the truth value of the Bible?

For the first response, have you considered that the authors of the New Testament, having naturally written it after the Old, may have referenced it to give the illusion of accuracy? And as for the evolution post, that's not what my question was about. Time is intangible and difficult to prove logically, without discredit to the Bible whatsoever.

Hello, Mr./Mrs./Ms. Maroney,

It is nice that you have decided to join our Forum. Your introduction was a bit - shall we say unorthodox - so I'll skip the pleasanteries and tackle your issues.

Logic. Bible. God. BIG questions. How to prove? What to believe!?

We can go the path of logic, arguments, reasoning, circular arguments. We can study the literary critic of the Bible that shows the OT influences in the NT, the quotations within scripture. We can assess all this critically and avoid circular reasoning, as you seem to wish. We can look at the various manuscripts, recognize their differences and ponder, if any original text was ever there. With logic we come to the inevitable conclusion: We do not know. We can never be certain. Everything must be doubted. There is no certainty of Truth in Christ. We are only guessing, weighing probabilities, at loss.

That is the outcome of LOGIC. By the way, a word unknown to the KJV.

But then, we can examine religion, Christianity and God.

Religion is Faith. Faith in the supernatural. Believing something that does not follow the rules of the natural world. Faith in the Truth that normal causality can be broken.

Miracles. They break down everyday causality, they are in direct opposition to common sense. A man dies temporarily and is resurrected three days later. Does not make any sense. The normal laws of causality are broken. It is impossible in the world. That is Christianity, belief in the impossible, loss of causality.

Loss of logic.

In everyday logic dead smelly vile corpses do not heal, water stays water, a few loaves of bread do not feed the multitude. It is foolishness for logic and causality. Paul knew as much:

1 Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.


God? He designed and Created the natural laws. He is above them. He can break them. It is supernatural intervention, a miracle! How wonderful. Without this we have logic but no Faith, no Christianity. I am well aware that Divinity scholars have been very fond of logic but it is all in vain... God can defy logic at will.

I am not surprised that so many are apostate. They seek logic. They should seek the Miracle of Christ. Therein lies Faith and Hope.

Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[MaroneyBaloney]

Re: Circular logic?

Elmer,
Thank you for your response! It is both thoughtful and of the attitude I was hoping for here. (By the way, Mr. )

As for the Bible analysis, it seems to me that a divinely inspired book should be solid, and original text should be reasonably possible to find.

Miracles seem hard to find these days, when across the world people suffer, seemingly needlessly, and many Christians rejoice in it, claiming it as vengeance on innocent people who could not have possibly known differently.

But logic arises from constant, everyday observation. The resurrection of Christ was unique, because corpses do not come alive. But how am I to believe in the supernatural if I have seen none of its effect on myself?

[JustGotSaved]

Re: Circular logic?

Hello, Mr./Mrs./Ms. Maroney,

.....
Logic......

[lots of good stuff here folks, read it!]

Elmer

You know it's funny, that your logical argument proves that applying logic to the Bible is useless! So it's very silly indeed to rely on unsteady and unworthy LOGIC , a system that completely fails at discerning the Biblical truths, to guide your spiritual life!

Next question?

[MaroneyBaloney]

Re: Circular logic?

Don't dismiss me so quickly JustGotSaved, did you read my response to him before trying to brush me aside?

[JustGotSaved]

Re: Circular logic?

Don't dismiss me so quickly JustGotSaved, did you read my response to him before trying to brush me aside?

Actually, we posted at nearly the same time, or when i was composing mine, you were posting yours, or something like that. So bear in mind my response had not seen your latest posting yet.

Still, it was so good i had to keep it.

JGS

[Levi Jones]

Re: Circular logic?

For the first response, have you considered that the authors of the New Testament, having naturally written it after the Old, may have referenced it to give the illusion of accuracy? And as for the evolution post, that's not what my question was about. Time is intangible and difficult to prove logically, without discredit to the Bible whatsoever.

Logic and rational thinking: Who needs those things when you have Jesus Christ?

You should read this sermon. God HATES Rational Thinking.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Circular logic?

Elmer,
Thank you for your response! It is both thoughtful and of the attitude I was hoping for here. (By the way, Mr. )

As for the Bible analysis, it seems to me that a divinely inspired book should be solid, and original text should be reasonably possible to find.

Miracles seem hard to find these days, when across the world people suffer, seemingly needlessly, and many Christians rejoice in it, claiming it as vengeance on innocent people who could not have possibly known differently.

But logic arises from constant, everyday observation. The resurrection of Christ was unique, because corpses do not come alive. But how am I to believe in the supernatural if I have seen none of its effect on myself?

Mr. Maroney,

You do not let go of logic, do you?

Bible analysis, exegetics, has actually demonstrated that the differences in the NT manuscripts are minor, hardly ever even lexical, mostly only some missing definite articles, slightly different particles, etc. They are a hinder to certainty and Faith only when secular logic and probability are applied in order to falsify the Bible. Regarding content, the text is wonderfully consistent between the papyri.

Miracles are everywhere when you look! People are healed from incurable cancers, lost relatives found after decades. And not all miracles have to be comfortable. Yes, the God of the Bible does show His wrath also, and sometimes in miraculous ways. And the miracle of coming back from the dead? Not unique! Study the Bible. Lazarus, children, OT prophet Elisha...

As for the personal miracle... Why are you here? Is it your own free will or is it guidance? Could it be a miracle?

Mark 6:52
For they considered not the miracle of the loaves: for their heart was hardened.


Try to open your heart. Miracles can suddenly be EVERYWHERE!


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[MaroneyBaloney]

Re: Circular logic?

Oh, my apologies JustGotSaved. In that case then, any thoughts on my response?

Levi,
While belief can be a wonderful and fulfilling thing, everyone must live their day-to-day. To do so irrationally cannot lead you to success.

[MaroneyBaloney]

Re: Circular logic?

Elmer,
Unfortunately I do not let go of logic, I am a hardened thinker, and I apologize for any frustration or perceived ignorance.

Disease was once a mystery to mankind, until through logic and observation, we began making breakthroughs. Who can say we will not have mastery of disease, say a hundred years from now?

As for coincidences (in my eyes), why must everything happen for a reason?

Out of curiosity, seeing as you might know, what does the Scripture have to say about why man needs purpose? Why is it painful for many to think that things happen arbitrarily?

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Circular logic?

Elmer,
Unfortunately I do not let go of logic, I am a hardened thinker, and I apologize for any frustration or perceived ignorance.

Disease was once a mystery to mankind, until through logic and observation, we began making breakthroughs. Who can say we will not have mastery of disease, say a hundred years from now?

As for coincidences (in my eyes), why must everything happen for a reason?

Out of curiosity, seeing as you might know, what does the Scripture have to say about why man needs purpose? Why is it painful for many to think that things happen arbitrarily?

My friend,

Purpose? It is really not something you need, it is something you are GIVEN in God! And within that purpose, things can still be arbitrary, as the mind of God and His choices are comprehensible only by a small degree.

1John 3:1-3
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.


It is a paradox, not of this world, it is of the world beyond logic.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer