Originally posted by Serenity-Millennium
View Post
-
Re: Christianity can be FUN!
I'm sorry, I thought you were looking for an intelligent conversation. I'll try to dumb it down to your level.Originally posted by True Disciple View PostMy dear friend, you really need to elaborate a little less! My time is precious!
King James was Anglican, he was not even a Christian by your standards. Do you think the original Greek is not divinely inspired?The KJV is divinely inspired. Every Christian knows that. But let's move on topic again:
The Greek mythological place the Greeks called "Tartarus" occurs one time in the Biblical text to denote a holding place for messengers (angels) "til" judgment which indicates an eventual release from this place. The case against "Gehenna" being translated into "Hell" is very aptly summarized by Dr. J.W. Hanson in his The Bible Hell when he listed the following regarding "Gehenna" :Come, my friend, I do not believe for a moment that you are really that confused or stupid. Please take us seriously; these aren't matters to joke about. Jesus clearly teaches that we should only pluck our eyes out when they seduce us into sin. If they do not do that, why should we pluck them out? Would be rather pointless, wouldn't it?
And, by the way, you didn't explain why burning eternally in Gehenna is better than burning eternally in Hell.
- Gehenna was a well-known locality near Jerusalem, and ought no more to be translated Hell, than should Sodom or Gomorrah. See Josh. 15:8; 2 Kings 17:10; 2 Chron. 28:3; Jer. 7:31,32; 19:2.
- Gehenna is never employed in the Old Testament to mean anything else than the place with which every Jew was familiar.
- The word should have been left untranslated as it is in some versions, and it would not be misunderstood. It was not misunderstood by the Jews to whom Jesus addressed it. Walter Balfour well says: 'What meaning would the Jews, who were familiar with this word, and knew it to signify the valley of Hinnom, be likely to attach to it when they heard it used by our Lord? Would they contrary to all former usage, transfer its meaning from a place with whose locality and history they had been familiar from their infancy, to a place of misery in another world? By what rule of interpretation, then, can we arrive at the conclusion that this word means a place of misery after death?
- The French Bible, the Emphatic Diaglott, Improved Version, Wakefield's Translation, and Newcomb's, retain the proper noun, Gehenna, the name of a place as well-known as Babylon. (Many other Bibles since this was written, have also removed "Hell" and put "Gehenna" back.
- Gehenna is never mentioned in the Apocrypha as a place of future punishment, as it would have been, had such been its meaning before and at the time of Christ.
- No Jewish writer, such as Josephus, or Philo, ever used it as the name of a place of future punishment, as they would have done had such then been its meaning.
- No classical Greek author ever alludes to it, and therefore, it was a Jewish locality, purely.
- The first Jewish writer who ever names it as a place of future punishment is Jonathan Ben Uzziel, who wrote, according to various authorities, from somewhere between the second to the eighth century A.D.
- The first Christian writer who calls Hell, Gehenna, is Justin Martyr, who wrote about A.D. 150.
- Neither Christ nor his apostles ever named it to Gentiles, but only to Jews, which proves it a locality only known to Jews, wheras, if it were a place of punishment after death for sinners, it would have been preached to Gentiles as well as to Jews.
- It was only referred to twelve times, on eight occasions, in all the ministry of Christ and the apostles, and in the Gospels and Epistles. Were they faithful to their mission to say no more than this, on so vital a theme as an endless Hell, if they intended to teach it?
- Only Jesus and James ever named it. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jude ever employ it. Would they not have warned sinners concerning it, if there were a Gehenna of torment after death?
- Paul says he 'shunned not to declare the whole counsel of God,' and yet, though he was the great preacher of the Gospel to the Gentiles he never told them that Gehenna is a place of after-death punishment. Dr. Thomas Thayer significantly remarks: 'The Savior and James are the only persons in all the New Testament who use the word. John the Baptist, who preached to the most wicked of men, did not use it once. Paul, wrote 14 epistles, and yet never once mentions it. Peter does not name it, nor Jude; and John, who wrote the gospel, three epistles, and the Book of Revelation, never employs it in a single instance. (the Greek words of "lake of fire" in Revelation is not Gehenna) Now if Gehenna or Hell really reveals the terrible fact of endless woe, how can we account for this strange silence? How is it possible, if they knew its meaning, and believed it a part of Christ's teaching, that they should not have used it a hundred or a thousand times, instead of never using it at all; especially when we consider the infinite interests involved? The Book of Acts contains the record of the apostolic preaching, and the history of the first planting of the church among the Jews and Gentiles, and embraces a period of thirty years from the ascension of Christ. In all this history, in all this preaching of the apostles of Jesus, there is no mention of Gehenna. In thirty years of missionary effort, these men of God, addressing people of all characters and nations, never, under any circumstances, threaten them with the torments of Gehenna, or allude to it in the most distant manner! In the face of such a fact as this, can any man believe that Gehenna signifies endless punishment, and that this is a part of divine revelation, a part of the Gospel message to the world? These considerations show how impossible it is to establish the doctrine in review on the word Gehenna All the facts are against the supposition that the term was used by Christ or his disciples in the sense of endless punishment. There is not the least hint of any such meaning attached to it, nor the slightest preparatory notice that any such new revelation was to be looked for in this old familiar word.
- Jesus never uttered it to unbelieving Jews, nor to anybody but his disciples, but twice (Matt. 23:15-33) during his entire ministry, nor but four times in all. If it were the final abode of unhappy millions, would not his warnings abound with exhortations to avoid it?
- Jesus never warned unbelievers against it but once in all his ministry, ((Matt. 23:33) and he immediately explained it as about to come in this life.
- If Gehenna is the name of Hell then men's bodies are burned there, and well as their souls. (Matt. 5:29; 18:9)
- If it be the name of endless torment, then literal fire is the sinner's punishment. (Mark 9:43-48)
- Gehenna is never said to be of endless duration, nor spoken of as destined to last forever, so that even admitting the popular ideas of its existence after death, it gives no support to the idea of endless torment.
- Clement, a Universalist, (of the early church) used Gehenna to describe his ideas of punishment. He was one of the earliest of the Christian Fathers. The word did not then denote endless punishment.
- A shameful death, or a severe punishment, in this life, was, at the time of Christ, denominated Gehenna, (Schleusner, Canon Farrar, and others), and there is no evidence that Gehenna meant anything else, at the time of Christ." (end of insert from The Bible Hell)
If "eon" means forever than explain why it is used in Gal.1:4; 1 Tim.6:17; 2 Tim.4:10; Titus 2:12 to denote the present age (and mistranslated "world" in your KJV)I already told you that it is translated in multiple ways. However, this word is used to describe God Himself. As we know that God is eternal, it would be rather stupid to deny that this word means eternal, wouldn't it? And besides, isn't it striking how often it is translated with "eternal," or a synonym of that? About three-quarters of the time, in fact!
Furthermore, I've told you what the root of the word aionos is: aei on, always existing. This was the word as used by Artistotle and Plato, and as well used by the Greeks in the time of the New Testament. It might mean something different in the Old Testament, but remember that they have been translated a few hundreds of years earlier (by the Septuagint; another reason why the KJV is better than the Greek manuscripts; the KJV is written/translated in its entirety at once; the Old and New Testaments in Greek were translated by different people in entirely different ages).
Your answers are hardly doing anything to disprove the validity of my objections, friend. I'm sorry you spend so much time on it (as you obviously didn't copy-paste it
).
Why is it used to denote this age in which we live in Matt.12:32; 13:22; Mk.4:19; Lu.16:8; 20:34; Rom.12:2; 1 Cor.1:20; 2:6, 6, 8; 3:18; 2 Cor.4:4; Eph.1:21; 6:12 (and mistranslated "world in your KJV)
Why is it used to denote the current age of this world in Eph.2:2 (and mistranslated as "the course of this world" in your KJV)
Why is it used to mean from this present age on in 1 Cor.8:13 (and mistranslated as "while the world standeth" in your KJV)
Why is it used to mean before this present age in Jude 25 (what's before forever?) (and mistranslated as "before all time" in your KJV)
Why is it used in these ways in your KJV: Lk.1:70; Acts 3:21 (since the world began); Acts 15;18 (from the beginning for the world; Out of the eonJn.9:32 (since the world began).
Why is it described as being able to conclude, as per Matt.13:39,40,49; 24:3; 28:20 (and mistranslated "end of the world" in your KJV)
Why is there said to be another one coming (since when is there multiple eternities?) in Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30; Heb.6:5; Lk.20:35 (and mistranslated as "world" in your KJV)
For the day of the eon--2 Pet.3:18 (mistranslated as "for ever"). Compare Deut.32:7; Mic.5:2; 7:14; Mal.3:4.
Why is eternity described as being plural in these verses. Can eternity be plural?
1. God made the eons--Heb.1:2; equipped the eons Heb.11:3 (worlds).
2. Purpose of the eons--Eph.3:11; King of the eons1 Tim.1:17 (eternal).
3. Before the eons--1 Cor.2:7 (before the world); From the eonsEph.3:9 (from the beginning of the world); Col.-1:26 (from ages).
4. For the eons--Matt.6;13; Lk.1:33; Rom.1:25; 9:5; 11:36; 16:27; Heb.13:8 (for ever); 2 Cor.11:32 (for evermore); _for all the eons_ Jude 25 (ever). "all" omitted in some MSS.
5. The on-coming eons--Eph.2:7 (ages to come).
6. Conclusion of the eons--Heb.9:26 (end of the world). R.V. "end of the ages."
7. Ends of the eons--1 Cor.10:11 (ends of the world). R.V. "ends of the ages."
Can you explain these passages?
1. The eons of the eons--Gal.1:5; Phil.4:20; 1 Tim.1:17; 2 Tim.4:18; Heb.13:21; 1 Pet.4:11; 5:11; Rev.1:6; 4:9,10; 5:13,14; 7:12; 10:6; 11:15; 14:11; 15:7; 19:3; 20:10; 22:5 (for ever and ever); Rev.1:18 (for evermore). A comparison of Rev.11:14,15 with 1 Cor.15:27,28 makes it clear that the expression "the eons of the eons" does not mean an endless succession of eons. Christ reigns for "the eons of the eons," after which He delivers up the kingdom to the Father and Himself becomes subject, that God may be All in all.
2. The eon of the eons--for all the generations of, Eph.3:21 (throughout all ages, world without end). In the Authorized Version, the Greek word for "generations" is wrongly translated "ages" in this passage. The eon of the eons is the last and greatest eon of them all, which consummates in the realization of God's purpose in the salvation of all.
3. The eon of the eon--Heb.1:8 (for ever and ever). This is a reference to the last eon which issues out of the one which preceeds it.
How about these ones?
1. Before eonian times--2 Tim.1:9; Titus 1:2 (before the world began).
2. In eonian times--Rom.16:25 (since the world began).
Consider John actually says that his visions have symbolic meanings and implores the reader to figure out what they mean, I think we can safely assume Revelation not to be a literal text.Yes, in other parts, they used other words. So what? That doesn't do anything to disprove that aionos meant "eternal."
Yes, of course. That is plainly what the Bible teaches.
Again, my friend, if you do not take this, or anything else in the Bible for that matter, literally, then how do you decide which parts to take literally, and which parts metaphorically? If this isn't to be taken literally, does that mean that Genesis is neither? And what about "love thy neighbour?" Or "Jesus died for our sins?" Is Jesus metaphorical as well? If he is, what is the use of surrendering your life to Him, or even love Him at all, when He's just an idea? If he is not, why would Revelation be? Why would the gospels be literally true, but Revelation not? And why call yourself a Christian, when you can just choose what to believe and then select only those verses that agree with that?
You're making no sense at all, friend. So, instead of copy-pasting some answer that vaguely resembles my question from your site, you might do better actually reading and considering what I'm saying here.
I think I have said enough on this subject.
I'm sure you do think that.
Can I quote my own verses to you?
I'm not going to read that, friend. I do not believe you have to answer my questions using the equivalent of four pages of text, they weren't that complex. I will answer you when you are more concise.
Finally, two Scripture verses, specially selected for you. Please take a moment to consider them:
Don't come up with some uppity long-winded answer this time, that is more or less the point. Just consider them.
Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 1:22
How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
Proverbs 10:21
The lips of the righteous feed many: but fools die for want of wisdom.
The Bible is a pretty long book, by the way.Leave a comment:
-
Re: Christianity can be FUN!
Mark, Christianity teaches us to obey God. That includes some love and some hate.Originally posted by MarkHenry View Post
Psalm 139:19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.Leave a comment:
-
Re: Christianity can be FUN!
Not at all. I love my life and I love my family almost as much as I love Jesus. I do not love everyone, my annoying neighbor comes to mind, but in general I can get along with most people I meet. Online it is a bit different since a lot of people seem to come here with the purpose of making trouble. But also online I have met a lot of nice people. Often misguided, like you for example, but still nice people.Originally posted by MarkHenry View Post
Absolutely. With all the suffering that life can be I always keep in mind that in the end there will be an eternal Heaven. I do of course hope I have lived well enough to be allowed there, but God will be the ultimate judge of that.Shouldn't the word of the lord make you happy and give you hope in hard times?
God's mind is way to advanced for us to comprehend. But it seems to me if someone has been evil and God punishes them for it he will take some kind of pleasure out of that.Or does the lord take pleasure from seing us falter and fail?
I think the priorities here should be to follow the Holy Bible to the letter and then perhaps to have fun, but never the other way around.Be happy and have fun as long as you follow the word of the lord i say.Leave a comment:
-
Re: Christianity can be FUN!
Sorry for my intrusion, but is christianity supposed to only teach you to hate everyone, to hate life to be sad all the time? Shouldn't the word of the lord make you happy and give you hope in hard times? Or does the lord take pleasure from seing us falter and fail?
Jesus came to give us hope.
The bible spread the word of the lord to give us faith and a good afterlife.
Why should i be sad if i know that if i follow the word of the lord that i will have a good afterlife? Are you all sad if you know that your most desired wish has come true?
Be happy and have fun as long as you follow the word of the lord i say.Leave a comment:
-
Re: Christianity can be FUN!
I'm sorry, Tammi, but mr. Millennium posted quite a lot of blasphemic false Christian teachings, and when I see such a thing, I become filled with the Rage of the Holy Spirit(tm), and want to rebuke every point he says. I will try to keep it shorter next time!Originally posted by TheLordSavedMe View PostAnd to that new smart guy True Disciple. I'm sure what you said was really, really Godly and all, but I just don't have the time to read all that. Can you like condense it down next time?
Leave a comment:
-
Re: Christianity can be FUN!
TLDROriginally posted by Pretty much everybody in this whole thread!
Serenity, you usually post such cute posts, what happened?
And to that new smart guy True Disciple. I'm sure what you said was really, really Godly and all, but I just don't have the time to read all that. Can you like condense it down next time?
Tammi
Leave a comment:
-
Re: Christianity can be FUN!
My dear friend, you really need to elaborate a little less! My time is precious!
The KJV is divinely inspired. Every Christian knows that. But let's move on topic again:Originally posted by Serenity-Millennium View Post
Jesus' warnings were extremely strong about the fires of "Gehenna." Again, speaking to the "chosen" people,Come, my friend, I do not believe for a moment that you are really that confused or stupid. Please take us seriously; these aren't matters to joke about. Jesus clearly teaches that we should only pluck our eyes out when they seduce us into sin. If they do not do that, why should we pluck them out? Would be rather pointless, wouldn't it?(Matt. 5:28,29; see also Matt. 18:9 and Mark 9:43,49)
If these Scriptures are to be taken literally, and if the consequences are eternal torment, then the church should be full of one-eyed, one-armed, one-footed members. The pulpits should have chairs behind them for the multitude of one-footed preachers who have problems with lustful eyes and hearts, and greed never being satisfied with the amount of money they raise.
And, by the way, you didn't explain why burning eternally in Gehenna is better than burning eternally in Hell.
FACTS REVEALED CONCERNING THE EONS
The words "eon" and "eonian" occur 199 times in the New Testament.
They are translated as follows in the King James Version:
AION or EON AIONIOS or EONIANAges: 2Everlasting:25
Never: 7Course: 1
Evermore: 4
Eternal:42
World: 40
Eternal: 2
World:3
Ever: 72
Ever:1
I already told you that it is translated in multiple ways. However, this word is used to describe God Himself. As we know that God is eternal, it would be rather stupid to deny that this word means eternal, wouldn't it? And besides, isn't it striking how often it is translated with "eternal," or a synonym of that? About three-quarters of the time, in fact!
Furthermore, I've told you what the root of the word aionos is: aei on, always existing. This was the word as used by Artistotle and Plato, and as well used by the Greeks in the time of the New Testament. It might mean something different in the Old Testament, but remember that they have been translated a few hundreds of years earlier (by the Septuagint; another reason why the KJV is better than the Greek manuscripts; the KJV is written/translated in its entirety at once; the Old and New Testaments in Greek were translated by different people in entirely different ages).
Your answers are hardly doing anything to disprove the validity of my objections, friend. I'm sorry you spend so much time on it (as you obviously didn't copy-paste it).
Yes, in other parts, they used other words. So what? That doesn't do anything to disprove that aionos meant "eternal."In the Greek Scriptures endlessness is never expressed in terms of eons or of that which is eonian. The Scriptures never speak of "the endless eons of eternity." Endlessness is expressed by the use of negatives: "not," "no not," "un-," "less." For example: "of His kingdom there shall be no end" (ouk estai telos; Luke 1:33); "endless life" (akatalutou; Heb.-7:16); "endless genealogies" (aperantois; 1 Tim.1:4); "nevermore" (ou me eti; Rev.18:21-23).
1. You don't interpret Revelation symbolically? "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb"
Do you think God is going to pour out a cup for people to drink in front of a sheep for worshiping a beast that will arise from the sea that has seven heads and ten horns?
2. same idea
Yes, of course. That is plainly what the Bible teaches.
Again, my friend, if you do not take this, or anything else in the Bible for that matter, literally, then how do you decide which parts to take literally, and which parts metaphorically? If this isn't to be taken literally, does that mean that Genesis is neither? And what about "love thy neighbour?" Or "Jesus died for our sins?" Is Jesus metaphorical as well? If he is, what is the use of surrendering your life to Him, or even love Him at all, when He's just an idea? If he is not, why would Revelation be? Why would the gospels be literally true, but Revelation not? And why call yourself a Christian, when you can just choose what to believe and then select only those verses that agree with that?
You're making no sense at all, friend. So, instead of copy-pasting some answer that vaguely resembles my question from your site, you might do better actually reading and considering what I'm saying here.
I think I have said enough on this subject.---about aionos again---
----Insanely long text---
I'm not going to read that, friend. I do not believe you have to answer my questions using the equivalent of four pages of text, they weren't that complex. I will answer you when you are more concise.
Finally, two Scripture verses, specially selected for you. Please take a moment to consider them:
Proverbs 10:19
In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.Don't come up with some uppity long-winded answer this time, that is more or less the point. Just consider them.Ecclesiastes 5:7:
For in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also divers vanities: but fear thou God
Leave a comment:
-
Re: Christianity can be FUN!
Wow, those huge posts you always make are very impressive.Leave a comment:
-
Re: Christianity can be FUN!
[ur=http://www.tentmaker.org/kjvonly/index.html]Facts About the King James Bible[/url]Originally posted by True Disciple View Post
Jesus' warnings were extremely strong about the fires of "Gehenna." Again, speaking to the "chosen" people,You apply this to Mark 9:43-48. Well, if you are right, sinners are not going to Hell, where "their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched," but to the "Valley of Hinnom," where "their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
Well, that's a big deal! If they torture me for all eternity in the Valley of Hinnom, it's going to be much less painful than when they do it in Hell, of course! Where can I sign up?
"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee; for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into Hell (Gehenna). And if thy right eye offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee; for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into Hell." (Matt. 5:28,29; see also Matt. 18:9 and Mark 9:43,49)
If these Scriptures are to be taken literally, and if the consequences are eternal torment, then the church should be full of one-eyed, one-armed, one-footed members. The pulpits should have chairs behind them for the multitude of one-footed preachers who have problems with lustful eyes and hearts, and greed never being satisfied with the amount of money they raise.
The word "aionian," which translates to everlasting, comes from the two word combination aei on, which means always existing. Sounds like everlasting to me.
It is also used for the coming Kingdom Of Christ, and is consistently used throughout the New Testament to describe things which are eternal. God is also described as eternal using this word, by the way.
THE EONS OF THE BIBLEThe teaching of the Scriptures about the eons provides answers to frustrating questions concerning the meaning of human existence. God's purpose in creating man, and God's purpose of the eons are inseparably related. Many are unfamiliar with this important subject because the facts have been concealed by incorrect and misleading translations of the Bible from the original languages into English.
with Concordance
The eons are the longest periods of time referred to in the Scriptures. Time-wise, they are of indefinite duration, but event-wise, they are distinctly marked off by great cataclysms which affect the whole earth.
FACTS REVEALED CONCERNING THE EONS
THE EONS HAVE A BEGINNINGLiteral Translation-vs-KJV:
Heb.1:2: God made the eons-vs-God made the worlds
1 Cor.2:7: before the eons -vs- before the world
Tim.1:9: before times eonian -vs- before the world began
THE EONS END, INDIVIDUALLY AND COLLECTIVELYHeb.9:26: the end of the eons -vs-the end of the world
1 Cor.10:11: the end of the eons -vs- the ends of the world
Matt.24:3: the end of the eon -vs- the end of the world
HOW MANY EONS ARE THERE?Col.1:26: hid from the eons -vs- Past hid from ages (at least two ages have past)
Luke 20:34: this eon -vs- this world (this present age)
Eph.2:7: eons to come -vs- ages to come (At least two more to come, thus--a minimum of five eons indicated)
THE PURPOSE OF THE EONS"...according to the eternal (aionian) purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Eph 3:11)
"...that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times (ages) He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will" (Eph 1:10-11).
Thje above verses talk about the purpose of the eons ("eternal purpose," AV). If the eons have a purpose, what it is? We believe the gospel makes it clear that the purpose of the eons is--CHRIST!
"Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil.2:9-11).
"For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross" (Col 1:19-20).
The words "eon" and "eonian" occur 199 times in the New Testament.The fact that the same word translated "for ever," "everlasting," and "eternal" is also translated "world," is a shocking surprise to many believers. Had God meant "world" in these places, He would have used the Greek word kosmos which means world. In the best literal translations, the words aion and aionios are consistently rendered "age" and"age-abiding" or transliterated "eon" and "eonian." See Rotherham's Emphasized Version; Young's Literal Translation; or the Concordant Literal New Testament.
They are translated as follows in the King James Version:
AION or EON AIONIOS or EONIANAges: 2Everlasting:25
Never: 7Course: 1
Evermore: 4
Eternal:42
World: 40
Eternal: 2
World:3
Ever: 72
Ever:1
God made the eons (Heb.1:2) and fitted them out (Heb.-11:3) for the accomplishing of His purpose (Eph.3:8-11; 1:9-11). During the eonian times, sin, suffering and death enter God's creation, serve their purpose and are abolished by Jesus Christ (1 Tim.4:9-11; Col.1:20; 1 Cor.15:22-28; Rom.5:18,19; Phil.2:9-11; John 12:32,33; 1 John 3:8).
The existence of God is not confined to the eons. He made the eons; therefore, He existed before they began. At the conclusion of the eons Jesus Christ will do away with sin (Heb.9:26) and will abolish death (1 Cor.15:22-26). All will then be subjected to God and God will be All in all (1 Cor.15:27,28). Therefore, God continues to exist after the eons have ended. The statement "from everlasting to everlasting thou art God" (Psa.90:2, AV), is literally, "from age to age thou art God." This does not limit God's existence to the eons any more than the statement, "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" (Ex.3:6), excludes Him from being the God of others also.
The same is true of the reference to Him as "the eonian God" (Rom.16:25,26). During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God.
Neither is it true that if the eons end, the life of believers in Christ must end. Believers do receive eonian life. But if this is all that God promised, there would be no assurance of life beyond the eons. However, at the end of the eons God abolishes death from His universe (1 Cor.-15:26). This is accomplished by imparting the resurrection life of Christ to all who have not previously received it. Eonian life assures one of life up to that point. Beyond that, death is impossible.
In the Greek Scriptures endlessness is never expressed in terms of eons or of that which is eonian. The Scriptures never speak of "the endless eons of eternity." Endlessness is expressed by the use of negatives: "not," "no not," "un-," "less." For example: "of His kingdom there shall be no end" (ouk estai telos; Luke 1:33); "endless life" (akatalutou; Heb.-7:16); "endless genealogies" (aperantois; 1 Tim.1:4); "nevermore" (ou me eti; Rev.18:21-23).
1. You don't interpret Revelation symbolically? "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb"1. Here at Landover, we interpret the Bible literally, not symbolically. We do not compare end time prophesies with the situation as it was back then, if we did, why would we take any other verse literally, and this one not? Coming to speak of it, why do you? This makes false Christians hypocrites
2. Revelation was written in the year 95 AD. Jerusalem was sacked 70 AD. As John clearly speaks about times to come, I think this argument is one of your stupider ones so far.
Do you think God is going to pour out a cup for people to drink in front of a sheep for worshiping a beast that will arise from the sea that has seven heads and ten horns?
2.
We have seen in this section how symbol meanings can be discovered by comparing Old Testament prophecy symbols (and their known meanings derived from the known fulfillment's of the prophecies involved) with the same symbols used in the same manner by New Testament prophets. We have also seen how applying this method and interpreting the results to correspond to the Roman–Jewish war of A.D. 67-70 brings harmony and reason to the symbols we find in the New Testament, especially those in Revelation. We will look more closely at specific sections of the
Revelation in the next section.
Numerous other parallels between Old and New Testament symbols may be found by careful study and comparison. The point of this is to establish that the visions of Revelation (in particular) are not something
foreign to the rest of the Bible. It is not a book to avoid, or to approach with unreasonable applications to our future, but it and all the other prophecies should be interpreted in the spirit of the types of symbols used in Biblical prophecy and within the proper time frames for them.
My dear friend, this doesn't adress at all the verse speaking about blackness of darkness forever. Which was my point. Please answer these questions seriously. This has nothing to do with free will. It has something to do with an eternity of hellfire, however.
Peter and Jude strongly condemn wicked and ungodly men speaking in terms of, 'for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever (aion)'. (2 Peter 2:17, Jude 1:13)
In these verses, as in many other places in the New Testament, the Greek word aion is mistranslated to mean forever by translators of most versions of the Bible. Yes, there is a future age-to-come (aion) judgement for all ungodly men but not an eternal judgement in 'hell'.
Once we understand that the two Greek words aion and aionios have been misinterpreted or mistranslated as explained in Chapter 5, there is absolutely nothing in the New Testament that supports the false doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell.
Which is the same as the story you posted. I've proven this wrong already; aionion is interpreted here as not meaning forever, but it is used for everything that is eternal in the Bible, including God. I've seen this transcript on your site that admits that it can mean "eternal" when applied to God (but, for reasons unmentioned, not when applied to other things, according to them
). It appears to me that you are really desperate to twist scripture to make it fulfill your own needs. But I must warn you; doing so is blasphemy; and you will find out what our Sweet Lord Jesus meant when he said "aionion."
Many English speaking peoples have heard and used the English expression "forever and ever." This phrase has become an idiomatic expression meaning to most English-speaking people "eternity, perpetuity or everlasting." This is an English rendering of SEVERAL DIFFERENT phrases found in the Greek New Testament. However, if one told the original writers of the Greek New Testament that by this phrase one meant "eternity," they would say that you are not using an "idiomatic" expression, but an "idiotic" one. They would NOT recognize our "forever and ever" as anything remotely representing what the Greek actually meant to them AND they would tell you that the Greek behind our "forever and ever" is NOT a Greek idiomatic expression meaning "eternity." You see, the Greek construct of this term would make it extremely difficult for a first century Greek to see how we moderns ever concocted "forever and ever" from these Greek phrases and words. Let me explain.
The English idiom "It's raining cats and dogs" only makes sense to us because we have been taught to associate the meaning, "It's raining heavily" with those words. Should a Chinese person just beginning to learn English read "it's raining cats and dogs," their natural instinct would first be to take the phrase literally. There is no way they could determine the "idiomatic" meaning of that phrase unless someone explained to them they were reading an idiom and then gave them its meaning. An idiom is an expression peculiar to a particular people or language the meaning of which is not apparent to those outside that group. Most languages have them. American English is filled with them. "I'm hip," "that's cool," "far out, man," "I dig you," are some examples. (I say "American" English because many idioms of the United States are not idioms of other English-speaking countries.)
We have a rather unique situation with this expression "forever and ever." It has come to be an English idiom meaning "eternity." However, it is SUPPOSED TO BE a literal translation of the New Testament Greek, NOT an idiomatic expression. This article will prove this phrase it is neither a literal translation of the Greek NOR an idiom representing the true first century Greek language. It's meaning is so far removed from the early Greek, that first century Greeks could not possibly be able to determine how a modern English-speaking person got these Greek phrases to mean "eternity." They would think the English "forever and ever" was as crazy as "It's raining cats and dogs" would be to a Chinese person. To the first century Greeks, our English "forever and ever" would NOT be a literal translation of the Greek, nor would they consider it an idiomatic expression. They would consider it simply IDIOTIC!
Many Bible translations contain the words "forever AND ever." It sounds nice because we have heard and read this expression thousands of times. Once a tradition is set into the language or customs of a particular people, it is difficult to remove. Just because a tradition has been around a long time and has been assimilated by a large group does NOT make it true. There are more traditions in this world based upon pure falsehood and superstition than our libraries could possibly contain. Santa, the Christmas tree, and the Easter Bunny are examples of how pagan myths and superstitions have entered christendom. Many of our Bible translations contain material as far off from reality as is the Easter Bunny. The phrase "forever and ever" is one of them.
The phrase "forever and ever" is a traditional phrase which has been around in English-speaking nations for several hundred years. It has been accepted as a true rendering of the Greek New Testament for a long time by millions of people. Nevertheless, this "tradition of the elders" is false. Furthermore, it is a tradition that has cause great havoc and produced many contradictions in our English Bibles. Even more significantly, it is a tradition that besmears the character of the God of Christianity to such an extent that the original writers of the Bible would not recognize this God as the one they were inspired to write by in the first place! For example:
Revelation 20:10 is one of several places where we find the English phrase "forever AND ever."
In the original it is written:
kai okarnos tou basanismou auton eis aionas ton aionon anabainei
and smoke the torment of them into eons of the eons is ascending.
Please note:- Our English word "ever" appears in the singular form. We have no plural form for "ever." Putting another "ever" next to an "ever" does NOT add anything to the meaning. It's a nonsensical thing to do. We merely do it because of the tradition of the elders we have swallowed without thinking it through.
- We get our English word "eon" and its plural "eons" from the Greek word "aion" and its inflections. Note that our English "eon" DOES have a plural form "eons" unlike our English word "ever."
- In the Greek, both words which were translated "ever" are in their PLURAL form. (aionas, aionon) "Ton aionon" is in the genitive form meaning "of" or "belonging to" or "what comes out of" the aionon.
- The Greek word for "and" is "kai," NOT "ton." Why did some of the leading translations replace the Greek "of the" with "and?" There is no linguistical reason for them to do so. "Of the" works perfectly fine and MANY English translations contain such rendering in the very text itself and many others show it in the margins, footnotes or appendixes.
"And the smoke of their torment is ascending for the evers and evers."
As we can plainly see, this is getting pretty messy. But it gets much more messy than that. Any beginning Greek student knows that the Greek word for "and" is "kai," NOT "ton." So why do many modern English Bibles use the expression "forever AND ever?" There is only one answer--TRADITION!!
There are MANY English Bibles who have broken the "tradition of the elders" in this regard in order to bring forth the true meaning of the Greek. They have translated this Greek phrase "aionas ton aionon":
"for the eons of the eons." Concordant Literal New Testament
"for the ages of the ages." Young's Literal, and others
"for the aeons of the aeons." The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson
"unto the ages of the ages.: Rotherham's Emphasized, and others
"through the ages of the ages." The Holy Bible in Modern English
The Greek word "aion" in its form in this verse is in the PLURAL both times. So we have "eternities" (plural) AND MORE "eternities" (plural). Are there more than one "eternities?" Does adding one "ever" to another produce eternity? Would "everS AND everS, double plurals make eternity longer? You see, dear reader, when we look at the original Greek construction behind our English phrase "forever and ever," it becomes quite plain to a rational person that this phrase found in many of our leading English Bible translations, comes from the same place that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny come from.
Simply put, we have a plain manipulation of the Greek word "aion" twice in this text AND a mistranslation of the Greek word "ton," which basically means "of the." "Ton" NEVER means "and," unless, of course, one is translating according to "tradition" rather than by proper translation methods.
What is really more amazing is that the double construct phrase of the Greek word "aion" appears in two other forms in the Bible. In one form both aions appear in the singular and in the other form, one aion is singular and the other is plural. In order for the "traditional" folks to be honest in their translating and still maintain that "aion" means "ever," they would have to give us English that reads like this:
"Ever and ever," and "ever and everS," and "everS and everS."
As a rational person can begin to see, our English "forever and ever," has NO resemblance to the original Greek form. The Greeks would NOT be able to understand at all how we came to such a meaning so remote from the original Greek. They would NOT consider these Greek constructions "idiomatic" expressions at all NOR literal translations. They would consider it all theological bunk. (Which is what it all really is.)
The Greeks had no problem with plural forms of the word "aion," because it meant to them what our modern word "eon" means to us. Eons are periods of time, NOT eternity. "Eon, eons, eon of the eon, eon of the eons, eons of the eons, made perfect sense to the Greeks of the first century A.D. AND they make sense in modern English. We have many translations which have translated these Greek phrases this way or similar ways, as I pointed out previously. When we allow "aion" and its derivatives to be a period of time, rather than "eternity," reason returns to us instead of "idiotic" senseless meanings which only reek havoc with our minds and destroy our concept of the True God of the Bible.
When it is determined that "aion" means and has always meant "an indeterminate period of time" sometimes long enough to be called an "age," sometimes as short as the three days and nights Jonah spent in the fish (Jonah 2:6), then we can easily see a number of ages in succession. Then phrases like the "age of the ages" becomes a particular age out of several ages. This is exactly what the Greeks had in mind.
Below are some examples of where the Greek double construct of aion shows three completely separate renderings which the King James and its kissing cousin Bibles hide from our hungry eyes. The Greek language is a very precise language. If it uses three different constructions of the double use of "aion," there is a very good reason for it. To arbitrarily translate all of them exactly the same way "forever and ever" as the KJV, NIV, NASB, NRSB, Amplified, Living, etc. have done, is NOT translating, its butchering the Greek through dark age traditions.
Singular/plural (aionos ton aionon): Ephesians 3:21
Singular/singular (aiona tou aionos): Hebrews 1:8
Plural/plural (aionas ton aionon): Revelation 20:10, 1 Peter 4:11
The word "aion" in ALL its forms refers to "ages" which have ends AND beginnings. There are at least 5 ages mentioned in the Greek New Testament. There is only ONE eternity, not multiples.
The Greek and Hebrew languages have several expressions which are constructed similarly to the double construct of the word "aion" as in "aionas ton aionon." We frequently find expressions like "King of kings," "Lord of Lords," and "Holy of Holies." But "for everS AND everS" makes no real sense to anyone in any language except to the traditionalist who refuses to let go of their tradition because it would cost them more than they are willing to let go of.
Pride, control, money, prestige, anger, wrath, vengeance, self-righteousness, etc. are NOT things most of us, especially religious folks of all persuasions are willing to let go of easily or without a big fight. Are you willing to let go of these things? We all know how hard it is to let go of these things--but let go we must--if we are to go on into a deeper relationship with our Creator and Father. Unless we let go of these traditions, our image of God is nothing more than an idol, a false image formed in our minds from false information. The greatest form of idolatry is not bowing down to a stone or piece of wood--it is holding our very life to a false concept of God in our hearts and minds. Ezekiel warned of such idolatry in the fourteenth chapter of his book. Do not be deceived--the image of God as one who created a place in which He is either going to annihilate or torture many of the human beings He created, is an idol of the magnitude of Moloch, or Baal--nay, it is an abomination a thousand times worse. The plain fact of the matter is that most of Christianity has been and presently still is bowing down to this hideous image. And we wonder why the world is in the confusion that it is. We wonder why the church is so full of hypocrisy. The answers become very plain and simple when we become honest enough with ourselves and our belief systems to look at the facts regardless of what it will cost us.
Jesus said that to follow Him will cost us our lives. Will you lay down your inherited traditions so that the True Image of God may rise in your hearts and minds and find expression through your being? I warn you, just as Jesus had to come against the very people who claimed to represent Him and His Father, you too, will find yourself standing against a huge army of tradtionalists who refuse to allow the True Gospel (which will set creation free) from coming forth. You will understand what it means to "suffer for His Name's sake." Jesus and His Father have been greatly maligned by the traditional view of Christendom. God is raising up an army of men, women, AND children who will strike this false image at its feet and destroy it forever. (Daniel 2:45) I hope the reader is given the grace and boldness to join in the cause.
Dear honest Christian, please study this out. Ask some Greek experts why some English translations have the word "and" between the two "aions?" Oh, make sure you find an expert who knows what the word "is" is. You may discover there are as many spinmeisters in theology as there are in politics. Ask them why they don't make "ever" plural like it is in the Greek. Let them explain what "foreverS AND everS" or "foreverS of the everS" means. "Forever and ever," the present English form in many of our Bibles would make absolutely NO sense to those who were inspired to write these words in the first place over 1900 years ago. When we get honest enough with ourselves to examine whether our beliefs are based upon tradition or the Truth, we will discover that "forever and ever" makes no sense period. We will discover we have been duped. Paul warned 1900 years ago that many wolves would enter the church after his departure. John, the apostle warned that even during his time there were MANY anti-christs. The fact there are over 30,000 denominations of Christendom should attest to their warnings. There is only ONE body of Christ, not 30,000 of them. Paul warned about following after men in his letters to the Corinthians. (1 Cor. 3:1-10) Today, we have literally thousands of denominations each built upon the teachings of some man or woman. We have Lutherans, Wesleyans, Calvinists, etc. We have those who swear allegiance to the Pope or a Patriarch. It is this error which has caused us to fall from the truth and be trapped in systems of tradition which make the word of God of no effect.
Do you know that the Bible speaks of something more powerful than the Word of God? "Thus you have made the word of God of no effect by your TRADITION. Hypocrites! Well, did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines commandments of men.'" (Matthew 15:6-9)
Are we going to stay true to the "tradition of the elders" or are we going to become faithful to the Spirit which inspired the writers of the New Testament? If we desire to be true to the Spirit of inspiration, then we will have to abandon this tradition, and many others that are outside the parameter of this article.
The reason why some scholars, Bible publishers and preachers have not already abandoned this false translation is because of what it would cost them should they translate these words correctly. If they pull further on this thread we have just exposed, and unravel it completely by translating it honestly, the whole concept of a hell in which people are tortured endlessly (forever and ever) completely falls apart! Many in Church leadership simply haven't caught on to the fact that Love will draw a lot more people than fear. Perfect love casts out fear. We become what we worship. Look at church history as see what the doctrine of endless punishment has left behind…thousands of wars, Christians killing each other and pagan nations in the name of God. Jesus' sword of His mouth has been replaced with the sword in the hand leaving behind a river of blood up to the horse's bridle.
If we believe God is going to waste most of mankind, our actions in the world have and will continue to reflect our beliefs and the nature of the God we worship. We cannot rise to a higher level than the god we hold in our hearts. If our God hates His enemies enough to have created a place to do to them what no human on earth is capable of doing to another human being, then we will, in a measure manifest some of that hatred. Look to church history. Those of us who read church history without applying tons of whitewash will find a very gruesome picture, regardless of whether they be Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant.
It has been said that when the Catholic Mary, queen of England, had thousands of Protestants burned at the stake that she said something like, "I only do here on earth what my God will continue to do to them perpetually." The wars, hangings, burnings, and drownings the Protestant denominations and the Orthodox branches have committed proves that ALL denominations of christendom which assemble under the banner of a god who will endlessly torture or annihilate most of mankind do NOT reflect the nature and character of the One who laid down His life for His friends AND enemies.
"Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you…" (Matthew 5:44) This is a far cry from what "traditional" christendom has manifested during the last 1600 years. I say, 1600 hundred years rather than 1900 years because the early church of the first few centuries did NOT believe in such a fiend. They knew this image of God was the false image all the OTHER pagan nations believed in. When the church was married to the Roman Emperor under Constantine, and the Roman Empire's military arm became an instrument of the church used to destroy its enemies and its heretics and apostates, the death knoll sounded. The majority of Christians who believed in the salvation of all mankind was replaced by a new majority which advocated violence. The God of Christianity was changed from the Savior of the World to the Eternal Torturer of most of mankind. The God of Christianity was conformed to the tyrant murderers who controlled the Church. Those gentle-spirited Christians who believed in non-violence were either killed or they headed to the wilderness and became recluses.
After the church picked up the weapons of the Roman Empire as its own (military and law), it brought forth the darkness which we know today as "the Dark Ages." During this time, the doctrine of endless tortures was the main instrument church officials used to hold the masses in check. Did it produce holiness? Law-abiding citizens? Loving people? Study this time period yourself and you will find the greatest cruelty and superstitions that mankind has ever experienced.
Compare the effect the early church had on civilization with that of the "Dark Ages" Church. The first taught that God loved all mankind AND would redeem, restore, reconcile, and save all mankind. The "Dark Age" Church taught a cruel fiendish god who was so hard that even the Pope himself was not assured of his own salvation.
Today, both churches still exist. The early church whose majority believed in the salvation of all mankind, which has only one head, Jesus Christ--and the "Dark Age" church, made up of many thousands of denominations started by human beings, still teaches the Dark Age gospel, that God will only save a handful while torturing endlessly the great majority of mankind. Only a remnant of the early church has survived throughout the dark diabolical centuries, but survive it has. And now it is time for this rock cut out of the mountain by the Hands of God to come forth and strike this false image at its feet. (Daniel 2:45) God does not need a majority to accomplish His work. Ask Gideon.
It is time for a people to arise who will be bold enough to set aside man-made traditions to follow the Truth. If the person presently reading this article is stirred to move in such a direction, the following books and articles will be helpful in their journey to follow the ways of Abraham who left behind the traditions of his ancestors to seek a city whose Maker is God. (Hebrews 11:10) If your heart yearns for all that the New Jerusalem, the mother of us all, represents, then the following books and articles will be found helpful to you. They are all available for free download at the Tentmaker site and some of them are available in hard copy from Tentmaker Ministries at the address below.
"Time and Eternity" by G.T. Stevenson
"Aion" by J.W. Hanson
"An Analytical Study of Words" by Louis Abbott
"The Power of a Four Letter Greek Word--Aion" by Gary Amirault
"Bible Translations that do not teach Eternal Torment" by Gary Amirault
"The Bible Hell" by J.W. Hanson
"The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment" by Thomas Thayer
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (drag in the Greek) ALL mankind unto Myself." Spoken by Jesus the Messiah in John 12:32
P.S. That the verse brought up in the question (Rev. 20:10) does not refer to eternity is obvious from the text itself. During this time there is "day and night." We know that in eternity there is not day or night because the Lord is the Light and it is always DAY!
Rev 22:5 and night shall not be there, and they have no need of a lamp and light of a sun, because the Lord God doth give them light, and they shall reign--to the ages of the ages. (Young's Literal Translation)
And again you are skitting away from the question. The question is not whether God can undo destruction; being omnipotent, He certainly can do that. The question is: does He choose to do that? From the verses I've mentioned, there is only one conclusion possible: He does not.
Anyway, Jude doesn't talk about "destruction" here, but about blackness of darkness for ever.
Jesus' prophecy that he will "draw all men" to himself (John 12:32)But if you reject Him, you reject His atoning sacrifice, which will land you in Hell. Don't tell me you failed to read that in the Bible?
So, even if the Greek manuscripts were of any use, it would still mean that people are being punished in Hell for eternity. You should spend less time listening to Bible-mutilating "theologians" and posting questionable vids on our Godly forums, and more actually reading your KJV, and get Saved™.
Leave a comment:
-
Re: Christianity can be FUN!
Well, my dear heathen, where to start...Originally posted by Serenity-Millennium View PostYou powerfully misunderstand the Bible. I am a Universalist, and the Bible has been misinterpreted and mistranslated by those following a perversion of the truth. http://www.tentmaker.org A lot of good content there
First of all, if anything is in the King James Bible, it is the infallible word of God. All other bible versions are liberal corruptions, so this already proves your "interpretation" of the verses wrong. But let's visit them for the sake of argument.
You apply this to Mark 9:43-48. Well, if you are right, sinners are not going to Hell, where "their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched," but to the "Valley of Hinnom," where "their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."The word which Jesus referred to most often which the King James Bible unfortunately chose to render "hell," in the New Testament, but did not do so in the Old Testament, is this word "Hinnom" or Ge-hinnom (valley of Hinnom) or "Ge-ben-hinnom" (valley of the sons of Hinnom) which was transliterated into the Greek as "gehenna."
Well, that's a big deal! If they torture me for all eternity in the Valley of Hinnom, it's going to be much less painful than when they do it in Hell, of course! Where can I sign up?
The word "aionian," which translates to everlasting, comes from the two word combination aei on, which means always existing. Sounds like everlasting to me.Please note, too, that the word "destruction" in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, is limited by the word "everlasting," and that the word "everlasting" is a misleading translation. We shall study that Greek word more carefully later; but suffice it to say for the present that the idea of the Greek word here is "eonian," or "pertaining to the age(s)." It does not mean unending. (See the sections, "How Long Is For Ever?" and Concluding Section). It is also used for the coming Kingdom Of Christ, and is consistently used throughout the New Testament to describe things which are eternal. God is also described as eternal using this word, by the way.
1. Here at Landover, we interpret the Bible literally, not symbolically. We do not compare end time prophesies with the situation as it was back then, if we did, why would we take any other verse literally, and this one not? Coming to speak of it, why do you? This makes false Christians hypocritesAnyone who aligned themselves with the “beast” (which was the unbelieving and persecuting powers of Judea or Rome), would be “tormented” with the fire of God manifested in the war actions of AD. 67-70. God does not stand and gloat over lost sinners as they are tormented. In fact, the torment of lost sinners is their removal from the presence of God. Here, however, the subjects of torment are in the presence of God and the Lamb (Christ), because these symbols represent the specific events of the Roman-Jewish war and the destruction of those people who were persecuting the new Christian church.
2. Revelation was written in the year 95 AD. Jerusalem was sacked 70 AD. As John clearly speaks about times to come, I think this argument is one of your stupider ones so far.
My dear friend, this doesn't adress at all the verse speaking about blackness of darkness forever. Which was my point. Please answer these questions seriously. This has nothing to do with free will. It has something to do with an eternity of hellfire, however.According to this defender of orthodoxy, God's love never fails, it just fails to accomplish it's desire. Sounds like doubletalk to me. He tells us that God loves those He has determined to torment and punish for all eternity. Thus, accordingly, God is bound to act in response to how man acts. God, thus, cannot affect man or his will. God, accordingly, is powerless to achieve His desire to save all mankind. Man alone is free to act. God, according to this view, is powerless against the free will of man. But, this view is wrong. This is not the God of the Scriptures. 2 Peter 2:10 simply says that men have a will, it says nothing about the latitude of that freedom, or the ability of God to affect the will and actions of mankind, and thereby accomplish what He has decreed will occur.
Plus: Peter's teaching that Jesus "died for sins once for all" and "went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago" (1 Peter 3:18-20), so that they may "live according to God in regard to the spirit" (1 Peter 4:6)
Which is the same as the story you posted. I've proven this wrong already; aionion is interpreted here as not meaning forever, but it is used for everything that is eternal in the Bible, including God. I've seen this transcript on your site that admits that it can mean "eternal" when applied to God (but, for reasons unmentioned, not when applied to other things, according to them). It appears to me that you are really desperate to twist scripture to make it fulfill your own needs. But I must warn you; doing so is blasphemy; and you will find out what our Sweet Lord Jesus meant when he said "aionion."
And again you are skitting away from the question. The question is not whether God can undo destruction; being omnipotent, He certainly can do that. The question is: does He choose to do that? From the verses I've mentioned, there is only one conclusion possible: He does not.As for the argument, founded by some on the word apollumi , that because it is one of the strongest in the Greek language to express destruction, therefore that destruction must be irremediable, the simple answer is, that the question is not whether the destruction is great, but whether God is not still greater, and therefore whether He is not able even out of the destruction to bring forth better things.
Anyway, Jude doesn't talk about "destruction" here, but about blackness of darkness for ever.
But if you reject Him, you reject His atoning sacrifice, which will land you in Hell. Don't tell me you failed to read that in the Bible?Plus: John's teaching that "[Jesus Christ] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2)
So, even if the Greek manuscripts were of any use, it would still mean that people are being punished in Hell for eternity. You should spend less time listening to Bible-mutilating "theologians" and posting questionable vids on our Godly forums, and more actually reading your KJV, and get Saved™.
Leave a comment:
-
Re: Christianity can be FUN!
You powerfully misunderstand the Bible. I am a Universalist, and the Bible has been misinterpreted and mistranslated by those following a perversion of the truth. http://www.tentmaker.org A lot of good content thereOriginally posted by True Disciple View Post
What a joke! Man, what kind of Christian are you?
(The next one is one of my favorites)
This is what the Bible says, friend. Either follow it, or stop calling yourself a Christian.
Mark 9:43-48
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
A Long, But Not Eternal Visit To "Hell"
Whatever this valley represented in the Old Testament must be carried over to the New Testament. Nowhere in the Old Testament is this place translated "Hell" and nowhere in the Old Testament is there a hint that this place referred to a place of eternal punishment after death. The word which Jesus referred to most often which the King James Bible unfortunately chose to render "hell," in the New Testament, but did not do so in the Old Testament, is this word "Hinnom" or Ge-hinnom (valley of Hinnom) or "Ge-ben-hinnom" (valley of the sons of Hinnom) which was transliterated into the Greek as "gehenna." A thorough study of this place in the Old Testament will dispel much myth regarding its significance. The Scriptural references for such a study are: Josh. 15:8; 18:16; 2 Kings 9:7; 15:3,4; 23:10, 36, 39; Ez. 23:37,39; 2 Chr. 28:3; Lev. 18:21; 20:2; Jer. 7:30-32; 19:2-6; 32:35. Remember, this place is never referred to as "Hell" in the Old Testament. References to this very same place in the New Testament are: Matt. 5:22; 5:29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15; 23:33; Mark 9:43; 9:45; 9:47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6. It should be mentioned that most of these references come from Jesus' mouth and every reference to this word "gehenna" was addressed to God's own people, not to the nations around Israel.
2nd Thessalonians 1:7-9
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power
The Outcome of Infinite Grace
Do you think that all the "first-born" of Egypt, including the innocent babes, were exterminated, and will never have a chance to be justly judged, nor receive any recognition from God that they ever existed? Surely God does not deal with anyone in such a way as that! Please note, too, that the word "destruction" in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, is limited by the word "everlasting," and that the word "everlasting" is a misleading translation. We shall study that Greek word more carefully later; but suffice it to say for the present that the idea of the Greek word here is "eonian," or "pertaining to the age(s)." It does not mean unending. (See the sections, "How Long Is For Ever?" and Concluding Section).
Revelation 14:10-11
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Comparing Symbols from Old and New Testament Prophecies
Anyone who aligned themselves with the “beast” (which was the unbelieving and persecuting powers of Judea or Rome), would be “tormented” with the fire of God manifested in the war actions of AD. 67-70. God does not stand and gloat over lost sinners as they are tormented. In fact, the torment of lost sinners is their removal from the presence of God. Here, however, the subjects of torment are in the presence of God and the Lamb (Christ), because these symbols represent the specific events of the Roman-Jewish war and the destruction of those people who were persecuting the new Christian church.
[quote]2 Peter 2:17
For whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever [/url]
Questions Without Answers
According to this defender of orthodoxy, God's love never fails, it just fails to accomplish it's desire. Sounds like doubletalk to me. He tells us that God loves those He has determined to torment and punish for all eternity. Thus, accordingly, God is bound to act in response to how man acts. God, thus, cannot affect man or his will. God, accordingly, is powerless to achieve His desire to save all mankind. Man alone is free to act. God, according to this view, is powerless against the free will of man. But, this view is wrong. This is not the God of the Scriptures. 2 Peter 2:10 simply says that men have a will, it says nothing about the latitude of that freedom, or the ability of God to affect the will and actions of mankind, and thereby accomplish what He has decreed will occur.
Plus: Peter's teaching that Jesus "died for sins once for all" and "went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago" (1 Peter 3:18-20), so that they may "live according to God in regard to the spirit" (1 Peter 4:6)
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
"Eternal" Punishment (Matthew 25:46) is NOT True to the Greek Language.
The entire concept of eternal or everlasting punishment hinges primarily on a single verse of Scripture--Matthew 25:46. This is the only place in the entire Bible where we find these two words together AND only in some Bibles. There are over a dozen English translations which do NOT contain the concept of "eternal punishment" on ANY of their pages, NOR the pagan concept of Hell.
The Greek form for "everlasting punishment" in Matthew 25:46 is "kolasin aionion." Kolasin is a noun in the accusative form, singular voice, feminine gender and means "punishment, chastening, correction, to cut-off as in pruning a tree to bare more fruit." "Aionion" is the adjective form of "aion," in the singular form and means "pertaining to an eon or age, an indeterminate period of time." (Note: the two words in many, not all translations become reversed changing the Greek into English.)
"Aionion," as shown above, is the singular form of the adjective of the Greek noun "aion." Many people unfamiliar with the Greek do not realize that the endings of the same word change (inflection) to indicate its mood, case, gender, etc. Therefore, "aionion" may appear with different endings. "Aionion, aioniou, aionios," for example, are all different inflections of the adjective form of the noun "aion."
The noun "aion" in Greek literature has always meant "an indeterminate period of time. It could be as short as the time Jonah spent in the belly of a fish (three days or nights), the length of a man's life, or as long as a very long age.
The Bible speaks of at least 5 "aions" and perhaps many more. If there were "aions" in the past. This must mean that each one of them have ended for they are now past! The New Testament writers spoke of "the present wicked aion" which ended during that very generation. Obviously, it was followed by another "aion"-- the "aion" in which we presently live. If there are "aions" to come, it must mean that this one we live in will also end.
There is a verse which says "the consummation of the aions" showing that each "aion" ends. So how can they be eternal?
There is "the coming eon" (Matt.10:30, Luke 18:30
There is "the present wicked eon" (Gal.1:4)
There is "the oncoming eons (future)(Eph.2:7)
There is "the conclusion of the eon (present) (Mt.13:39,40)
There is "the secret concealed from the eons (past) (Eph.3:9)
Plainly, the Greek word "aion" transliterated "eon" cannot mean "eternal." A study into the Greek of the Biblical period and before will bear this out.
"Aionion" is the adjective of the noun "aion."
Since grammar rules mandate an adjective CANNOT take on a greater force than its noun form, it is evident that "aionion" in any of its adjective forms (ios, ou, on) CANNOT possible mean "everlasting" or anything remotely indicating eternity or unending time.
For example, "hourly" cannot mean "pertaining to days, weeks, months, or years. The word MUST mean "pertaining to an hour." Therefore, "aionion," the adjective form of the noun "aion" which clearly means a period of indeterminate TIME, CANNOT mean, "forever and ever, eternal, everlasting, eternity, etc) or other words which connote timelessness or unending ages.
Therefore, those many Bibles which do NOT contain the teaching of everlasting punishment or Hell are true to the original languages of Greek and Hebrew and those which teach everlasting punishment or Hell are false. Scholars are just as easily subjected to the "traditions of the elders" as the rest of us. It's time to let the original Greek and Hebrew languages of the Bible break down the traditions of men. For a list of the many English translations of the Bible that do NOT contain these pagan concepts and for an article explaining why the punishment in Matthew 25:46 does NOT have to be the same length as the life spoken of in that verse, write to us (Tentmaker--118 Walnut--Hermann, MO 65041) and ask for:
Matthew 25:46 Commentary
No-Hell Bibles
We have MANY articles and books on this single most important subject, many of which may be downloaded for free. Click the links to Books and Topics to get an overview of available materials.
Jude 11-13[ur=http://www.tentmaker.org/restofall5.htm]The Restitution of all Things[/url]Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
As for the argument, founded by some on the word apollumi , that because it is one of the strongest in the Greek language to express destruction, therefore that destruction must be irremediable, the simple answer is, that the question is not whether the destruction is great, but whether God is not still greater, and therefore whether He is not able even out of the destruction to bring forth better things. This at least is certain, that both in the New Testament and in the Classical Greek, the word in question is used of those who though “destroyed” are yet “saved.” To the passages already quoted from the New Testament I will only add one more:--“The Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost :” (S. Luke xix. 10.) As an example of the Classical use of the word, I give the following from one of the Greek poets, (quoted by Justin Martyr, De Monarchia , cap. 3; and by Clement of Alexandra, Strom , lib. v. cap. 14,) bearing on this very question of the restoration of the lost:- “__________” And the New Testament use of the word _______ proves that it describes, not so much preservation from future or threatened judgment, (in which case ______ would be used, as in S. John xvii. 15, Rev. iii. 10, Jude 1, 1 Thess. v. 23, &c.) but rather deliverance out of some present and oppressing evil. So we read, (S. Matt. ix. 21, 22,) “And the woman said within herself, if I may but touch His garment, I shall be made whole,” that is restored to health; “and the woman was made whole,” that is restored to health, “from that hour.” So again, (S. Mark v. 23,) “And Jairus besought Him greatly, saying, I pray Thee, lay Thy hands upon her, that she may be healed.” So too, (S. Mark vi. 56,) “And as many as touched Him were made whole.” So too, in reference to Lazarus, (S. John xi. 12,) “Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well,” that is, he shall be restored to health. See also S. Luke viii. 36; xviii. 42; Acts iv. 9; S. James v. 15; &c. See also what is said of our Lord, (Heb. v. 7,) that “in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers unto Him that was able to save Him from death,” (literally “ out of death,”) “He was heard in that He feared.” But He was not preserved from death, but delivered out of it. Our salvation also, like our Lord's, for we are His members, is not from death, but by it, and out of it.
Plus: John's teaching that "[Jesus Christ] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2)
Leave a comment:
-
Re: Christianity can be FUN!
Originally posted by Serenity-Millennium View Post What a joke! Man, what kind of Christian are you?
(The next one is one of my favorites)Mark 9:43-48
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
2nd Thessalonians 1:7-9
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his powerRevelation 14:10-11
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.2 Peter 2:17
For whom is reserved the blackness of darkness foreverMatthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.This is what the Bible says, friend. Either follow it, or stop calling yourself a Christian.Jude 11-13
Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Leave a comment:
-
Re: Christianity can be FUN!
Tammi, my lovely sister in Christ, you needn't worry! There is NO such place as hell! The Bible says that everyone will be saved in the end! AMEN!
Luke 12: 16-19Then he told them this story: "The farm of a certain rich man produced a terrific crop. He talked to himself: 'What can I do? My barn isn't big enough for this harvest.' Then he said, 'Here's what I'll do: I'll tear down my barns and build bigger ones. Then I'll gather in all my grain and goods, and I'll say to myself, Self, you've done well! You've got it made and can now retire. Take it easy and have the time of your life!' 20"Just then God showed up and said, 'Fool! Tonight you die. And your barnful of goods—who gets it?'
Leave a comment:
-
Re: Christianity can be FUN!
Hi Serenity
You are always in such a good mood, it's kinda a nice change around here when you come around!
Even though the Pastors tell me you're going to Hell for being a false Christian, and that makes me a little sad, but then I read another of your posts and I get happy again for a minute.
But then I get sad about you going hell again, so it is kinda weird reading your posts I guess.
Could you maybe just get saved so I don't have to think about you going to Hell all the time?
Tammi
Leave a comment:
Leave a comment: