[The Adversary]

Re: God is

The history of God, satan and Job is an illustration, to satan, of the inherent trustworthiness of Job’s faith and thus, by extension, the Faith of all believers. Job is here being tested in his faith.

That, sir, is true, but utterly besides the point. Shaitan and YHWH were clearly gambling buddies and Job was God's prizefighter. YHWH is the one doing the punching, however. Shai'tan ended up losing the bet of course. But you think he was SAD to lose that bet after watching rich fatcat Job get mercilessly raked over the coals by his master?!?!?!?!?!

Now if God came to you and said that He wanted to put one over on the devil, would not any reasonable person put themselves on the side of The Almighty? I know I would. "Go ahead Lord! Glory!"

I'm sure you would, that's what it means to be a TC™ after all. However, part of the fun of the Job story is that he was not in on the joke! That was purely YHWH boasting to His prosecutor .

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: God is

Wrong-O, Deaner. Read Job and you'll see that Satan goads God into torturing Job and raping and murdering his household.

That's an incomplete explanation; God lets Satan torture murder Job and his household to show how futile Satan's resistance to God is. No matter how many people Satan rapes and tortures, even if they are God's most beloved chosen elect, God is still the good guy because God is all powerful.

[Nobar King]

Re: God is

Well, I can imagine YHWH as the omnipotent God of our universe just as He claims and the Bible claims. However, the Bible does not claim anything further, so I can also imagine other gods as the creators of neighboring universes (or previous or future ones). I can also imagine an UberOmniGod that creates all the other Gods and created the Omniverse.

If that were so, it would say it in the Bible. It doesn't. It says there is one God and that God created the Universe. The Universe encompasses everything, even alternate or separate universes, which God would have created, also. Why need more than one God to create everything? If he can create an infinite number of grains of sand, you would think he would be able to create a few galaxies.

Your theory doesn't follow Occam's Razor, so I tend to thing that you're wrong.

[The Adversary]

Re: God is

That would go both ways then.
How can your silly "scientists" run around stating what was or not was, before this so-called big bang occured?
Cause that's what they do.


But the fact is this:
If the big bang was the beginning of all that is, then it would have happened without a cause, no getting around that fact.
And things simply don't "happen" without a cause. If it hasn't always existed, something caused it.

Also.. The so-called laws of preservation (or some similar name) contradict the big bang.
Seeing as matter/energy can't be destroyed, only changed, you can't create it from nothing either.
Thus, no matter what you believe in, be it big bang or Creationism:
Logically, something MUST have already been there before to cause it, something that is eternal.
That something friend, would be God. Glory!

This thread contains a lot of tedious rehashings and so I have to say that Salvation Seeker has been one of the True Christians™ that is doing an excellent job of showing how logic is supposed to work, unlike making a few wishy-washy postulates and calling them an argument.

Unfalsifiable's straw man is this whole irritating "that which doth be greater than ought I can conceive" phrase. I have read it over and over unto the point of vomiting. Unfalsifiable is so redundant that he should be stoned to death before he pulls a Joseph Smith and writes some long-lost fake bible.

Here's how I can smite that phrase: The Bible clearly and repeatedly states that God (El, YHWH, etc.) created our world and the universe around it. Thus we can postulate that He created the Big Bang that formed our universe for reasons that Salvation Seeker mentioned. If that is the extent of Unfalsifiable's awareness, then YHWH is the most powerful God that he can imagine.

But I can conceive of beings FAR greater than YHWH who only concerns himself with our universe. Matter has existed for a ridiculously long time and we are only now becoming aware of the vast potential of the Omniverse. The Big Bang for example may have kick-started our universe from the ashes of a previous one. Our universe may have neighbors just as our galaxy has far-off neighbors. Imagine the circle of life on a truly macrocosmic scale.

Well, I can imagine YHWH as the omnipotent God of our universe just as He claims and the Bible claims. However, the Bible does not claim anything further, so I can also imagine other gods as the creators of neighboring universes (or previous or future ones). I can also imagine an UberOmniGod that creates all the other Gods and created the Omniverse.

Conclusion: Unfalsifiable's argument sucks because I just made his God go poof by conceiving of something greater than all the Hebrews put together. However, I never bought into his crappy logic to begin with, so the question of YHWH's existence never changed for me personally.

[Unfalsifiable]

Re: God is

Unfalsifiable: "Science itself is quite purely inductive. Humankind relies on induction every second of the day."

Ah, Unfalsifiable, but your inductive claims are not of the quotidian and mundane.

You seek to write of absolutes.

Logic may seem effective in all circumstances within our limited purview but that does not mean that logic is absolute and trustworthy in all times and all places. The limited and specific doth not the absolute and infinite prove .

For if God raiseth up the dead as lightning shakes the heavens and the Earth itself groans for forgiveness, then this great Act shall overthrow Science and all former human experience. What then? In the actinic light of His miraculous immanence all the logical sophistries of Man shall be burned away as dross is burned from gold. Nothing in our experience or our logic accounts for the miraculous.

And God -- the mysterious Trinity, the Man who died and lived again, the pillar of fire and column of smoke, the Burning Bush -- God is nothing if not miraculous. And so logic fails.

Thus we assert: He is the supreme illogic. He is the irrational Truth.

Auribus tenere balaena.

~~ OEJ

I can only assume you misunderstood my post? I clearly said logic was inductively founded, no absolute, not by a long shot.

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: God is

Unfalsifiable: "Science itself is quite purely inductive. Humankind relies on induction every second of the day."

Ah, Unfalsifiable, but your inductive claims are not of the quotidian and mundane.

You seek to write of absolutes.

Logic may seem effective in all circumstances within our limited purview but that does not mean that logic is absolute and trustworthy in all times and all places. The limited and specific doth not the absolute and infinite prove .

For if God raiseth up the dead as lightning shakes the heavens and the Earth itself groans for forgiveness, then this great Act shall overthrow Science and all former human experience. What then? In the actinic light of His miraculous immanence all the logical sophistries of Man shall be burned away as dross is burned from gold. Nothing in our experience or our logic accounts for the miraculous.

And God -- the mysterious Trinity, the Man who died and lived again, the pillar of fire and column of smoke, the Burning Bush -- God is nothing if not miraculous. And so logic fails.

Thus we assert: He is the supreme illogic. He is the irrational Truth.

Auribus tenere balaena.

~~ OEJ

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: God is

Wrong-O, Deaner. Read Job and you'll see that Satan goads God into torturing Job and raping and murdering his household.

Is this the weakest, most vacuous, cheapest, opportunistic piece of blasphemy I have ever seen?... Probably.



"The Adversary"? "The Adversary"????!!! Is there some way I can sue for misrepresentation?

The history of God, satan and Job is an illustration, to satan, of the inherent trustworthiness of Job’s faith and thus, by extension, the Faith of all believers. Job is here being tested in his faith.

Now if God came to you and said that He wanted to put one over on the devil, would not any reasonable person put themselves on the side of The Almighty? I know I would. "Go ahead Lord! Glory!"


So here we see a story of the co-operation between God and common man. And Job got a book of the Bible named after him – how much better does it get?

Sometimes I wish God had left a couple of books of the Bible unwritten, so there could be one called, “The Book of Landover”

Glory!

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: God is

Yes I understand you guys are trying use the modern definition of the word atheists, I'm saying Saint Fnrod or who ever came up with it's time atheist meant "don't belive in YHWH". If you read the history of it they were out to prove why YHWH was the big perfect god Plato came up with.



So God, angles and demons are natural processes?

I really do not care what some long dead catlik like Mr Anselm said. He did not make it into print in KJV1611.

On your second point, I clearly remarked that God does not approve of superstition. This shows that God and superstition are separate, therefore God is not a figment of the superstitious imagination - He is thus, real.

Next demons are the spawn of satan and satan was created by God. So he and his demons are real.

Finally, "angles" are very real indeed, they range from 0 degrees on to infinity and can be positive or negative. The angle which is 90 degrees is like Landover Baptist - it is "right".

I hope I have cleared up every last one of your minor cavils and you will happily accept God, through Jesus Christ, into your heart.

The alternative future is Eternal, hot and painful making it difficult to sit down at night.

[The Adversary]

Re: God is

I think the perfect God would be the one to come and kick your blaspheming teeth right out of your head you atheist weirdo. God doesn't allow people to be tortured, raped or murdered. He allows satan to do it. Now show some respect in this forum or we'll beam you into Quarantine.

Wrong-O, Deaner. Read Job and you'll see that Satan goads God into torturing Job and raping and murdering his household.

[Unfalsifiable]

Re: God is

I conceive of three things, each greater than the other.

Logic requires a foundation of faith, for you must take it on faith that logic is effective. Logic cannot prove itself effective; to do so would require a circularity of argument which is logically inadmissible.

"It is like a dream. When even the bones is gone in the desert the dreams is talk to you, you don't wake up forever."

The three things are God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.

Repent! Logic is a frail reed, and the bones of Saint Anselmo have become fragile and friable as dry mud. REPENT! The Lord will tell you -- has already told you -- what to think. Saint Anselmo rots in his grave and his Ontological Proof is as unsound as his crumbling bones.

REPENT! Logic is a frail reed, but mighty is the Grace of God. His Grace is SALVATION entire and ineffable!

~~ OEJ

Science itself is quite purely inductive. Humankind relies on induction every second of the day. We utilise induction to believe in God. Mathematics, logic both rely on it too. It is the faith almost everyone has, most significantly its most dedicated followers are the atheists. I wonder if they knew how much faith they put in to induction when they mouth off about faith.

The only true faithless are the sceptical philosophers.

[Underpants Gnome]

Re: God is

No, I think that Unfalsy has used the word correctly - "a-theist" without God(s)." Whether that God is the Lord of Hosts or some jigga-boo's tree is not relevant to the definition of "God(s)" and atheist believes in the existence of no gods. The reason why an atheist does not believe is neither here nor there to the definition..

Yes I understand you guys are trying use the modern definition of the word atheists, I'm saying Saint Fnrod or who ever came up with it's time atheist meant "don't belive in YHWH". If you read the history of it they were out to prove why YHWH was the big perfect god Plato came up with.

The supernatural is dismissed by virtue of various Bible verses condemning witches, fortune tellers, casters of spells etc. So you and Unfalsy are at one with this. We here at Landover reject these superstitions.

So God, angles and demons are natural processes?

[SalvationSeeker]

Re: God is

Well I will concede this; we don't know what was the event that caused the Big Bang because we can't observe anything outside the universe. So I suppose you could say "God did it", kind of like a mad scientist prancing arround his lab screaming itself alive.

That would go both ways then.
How can your silly "scientists" run around stating what was or not was, before this so-called big bang occured?
Cause that's what they do.


But the fact is this:
If the big bang was the beginning of all that is, then it would have happened without a cause, no getting around that fact.
And things simply don't "happen" without a cause. If it hasn't always existed, something caused it.

Also.. The so-called laws of preservation (or some similar name) contradict the big bang.
Seeing as matter/energy can't be destroyed, only changed, you can't create it from nothing either.
Thus, no matter what you believe in, be it big bang or Creationism:
Logically, something MUST have already been there before to cause it, something that is eternal.
That something friend, would be God. Glory!

Really, do tell what this evidence is for your god doing it? This wouldn't be because you theists wrote he did in your magical book?

I haven't quoted the Bible a single time yet in this discussion now have I?

Instead, I have given a case for Creationism using logic and continue to do so.
While you've failed to do so for the big bang, evolution and what other nonsense you may believe in.
So if you actually have a real and logical argument to present, that somehow contradicts what I'm saying instead of some pointless remarks, I'm all hears.

[One-eyed Jack]

Re: God is

I conceive of three things, each greater than the other.

Logic requires a foundation of faith, for you must take it on faith that logic is effective. Logic cannot prove itself effective; to do so would require a circularity of argument which is logically inadmissible.

"It is like a dream. When even the bones is gone in the desert the dreams is talk to you, you don't wake up forever."

The three things are God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.

Repent! Logic is a frail reed, and the bones of Saint Anselmo have become fragile and friable as dry mud. REPENT! The Lord will tell you -- has already told you -- what to think. Saint Anselmo rots in his grave and his Ontological Proof is as unsound as his crumbling bones.

REPENT! Logic is a frail reed, but mighty is the Grace of God. His Grace is SALVATION entire and ineffable!

~~ OEJ

[Unfalsifiable]

Re: God is

You ignore my comments about your assertion that God only exists outside time and space (that is, objective reality), yet is recorded in the Bible as having repeatedly interacted with real people (not those you've imagined). No answer for that, eh?

The greatest thing that can be conceived surely could handle the feats of God in the Bible with ease. Why does it have to exist outside of time and space?

What if you and I have different abilities to imagine, and I am able to conceive something far greater than you? Does that mean my imagined being exists, while yours does not? Or does it mean that God is subject to human imaginations, and exists only because we are capable of imagining Him?

No one can think greater then "that which nothing greater can be conceived" or it would be illogical.

Finally, would God cease to exist if humans ceased to exist? Since you say that He must logically exist because He is the greatest thing of which we humans can conceive, then it logically follows that if humans ceased to exist, there would be nobody to imagine Him, and He would likewise cease to exist.

He could cease to exist from the perspective of humans as there would be no humans left to have perspective.

Oh and PASTOR Zeke, I was not calling Brother Zeke sunshine, rather, I thanked him for his post and moved on to talking to the person Brother Zeke had correctly admonished, thank you for your concern, though.

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: God is

Not a very good try there, sunshine.

Pal, if you refer to Brother Ezekiel or any other True Christian™ as "sunshine" or any other demeaning name ever again, I'll personally put your lights out.