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MATTHEWS: Thank you, David Shuster. As the Republican presidential candidates battle it out for Michigan, South Carolina, Nevada, and Florida, the Republican Party is also facing an internal battle between you might say social and fiscal conservatives. Does the GOP want to win or do they want to feel good? That‘s also the question.
Tony Perkins is the president of the Family Research Council. And Pat Toomey is the president and CEO of the Club For Growth.
We couldn‘t have two better people here to talk about this in ever so brief a time.
First of all, I‘m going to ask the partisan question.
How important it is—is it for your party, the Republican Party, to win in November the presidency, if it‘s Hillary or it‘s a Barack Obama candidate you‘re up against?
PAT TOOMEY, PRESIDENT, CLUB FOR GROWTH: Well, it‘s incredibly important, Chris, because it‘s frankly pretty unlikely that the party is going to take back either the House or the Senate.
And the idea of having either Hillary or Barack Obama in the White House with majorities in both bodies is—is pretty scary.
MATTHEWS: So, it‘s one-party government if you don‘t win?
TOOMEY: It‘s one-party government.
MATTHEWS: Do you agree?
TONY PERKINS, PRESIDENT, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: Well, I would say it‘s important to elect a conservative to the White House as president, not just a Republican, someone who is going to advance a conservative agenda and defend conservative principles, both fiscal, both foreign policy-wise, but also on the social issues. That‘s important.
MATTHEWS: Well, let‘s take a look. We have to get serious now and talk about the people that are running.
Right now, it‘s very hard to say who the front-runner is. Let‘s just look at a couple of candidates. Huckabee, who won last week, McCain, who won this week—it‘s almost hilarious—Rudy, who promises to win in a couple of weeks, Thompson, who is still looking at South Carolina, is any one of those candidates not a conservative, Tony?
(CROSSTALK)
PERKINS: Well...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: By your definition.
PERKINS: I do not believe that Giuliani is a—has a socially conservative bone in his body. I don‘t think he‘s a conservative.
TOOMEY: I...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Is there anybody on that list you don‘t think is a conservative?
TOOMEY: The guy who clearly is not a conservative is Mike Huckabee.
Mike Huckabee is a big-government liberal.
This is a guy who thinks that his Christian faith requires him to believe in a big, expansive government. His record as governor clearly was that of a big-government guy, a serial tax-hiker, big spender, advocate for all kinds of new programs. And now, on the campaign trail, he‘s moved to the left of that.
I think the fact that he‘s pro-life and supports traditional marriage doesn‘t make him a conservative.
PERKINS: No, but he—what happened is that the Republican establishment embraced Giuliani and essentially told social conservatives to take a hike. They took a hike. They came back with a Huck.
MATTHEWS: Who did that? I missed that vote. When did they call—call this election for Giuliani?
PERKINS: Well, look, you have—look, go back—go back two months before we began to see the surge of Mike Huckabee, and all the talk was about who could beat Hillary. And the only one that was said that could beat Hillary was Giuliani. Look at the polls today, and that‘s not the case.
MATTHEWS: Do you believe any of the candidates we have talked about, Huckabee, McCain, Thompson, or Rudy, could all beat Hillary?
PERKINS: I think a...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: With good campaigns?
PERKINS: Well...
MATTHEWS: Could they all do it?
PERKINS: I think what it takes to be successful—and this is where I think Pat and I would agree.
MATTHEWS: I‘m assuming she‘s the nominee, I don‘t think that‘s a good assumption yet.
PERKINS: For the Republican party to win, they must have a conservative candidate who brings together the conservative coalition, fiscal conservatives, defense conservatives and social conservatives.
MATTHEWS: Who was the last nominee of your party that wasn‘t a conservative?
PERKINS: Well, I think—
MATTHEWS: When was the last one?
TOOMEY: Gerald Ford.
PERKINS: Yes. You have not had a candidate who has not united those three elements and been successful.
TOOMEY: It‘s important to thing about the three. If you think of it as a three-legged stool, the guy who clearly has only one leg of that is Mike Huckabee. Seriously, the foreign policy folks cannot be comfortable with Mike Huckabee. Economic conservatives can‘t even begin to—
PERKINS: I don‘t think he‘s as bad on fiscal policy as some make him out to be, certainly not as bad as Rudy Giuliani is on the social policy.
TOOMEY: I strongly disagree. I think you can make a case that Giuliani—I‘m a social conservative and I disagree with Mayor Giuliani on a lot of things, but I believe him when he says he‘ll appoint conservative justices.
MATTHEWS: Are we going to have a divided party and a defeated party if it‘s either Huckabee or Giuliani? Based on this conversation, they are both polarizing. Am I wrong?
TOOMEY: Huckabee can‘t.
MATTHEWS: Are you saying the party can unite behind Huckabee? Can the party unite behind Huckabee, the Pennsylvania suburbs? Can states like Pennsylvania, which are purple states—can a guy like Huckabee win in those states, and Ohio?
PERKINS: I think the challenge is steep for him. I absolutely would agree with Pat on that. But I would also say Giuliani, there‘s no way he can unite the party.
MATTHEWS: Let‘s talk about the candidate that can get 270 electoral votes. That‘s always the issue. After everything else, they are just losers. There‘s lots of losers out there and there are only a few presidents in history. Which of the candidates can actually be elected president, Tony Perkins, win the presidency against Hillary or Obama or Edwards, whoever else is left standing?
PERKINS: I would clearly say that Mike Huckabee is helping shape this race.
MATTHEWS: Could he win the presidency?
PERKINS: I think he could, but everything would have to come into alignment. It‘s very difficult for him to do it. I would say who to watch at this point—I think the two candidates that can bring together the conservative coalition is John McCain and Mitt Romney. I think those are the two that can bring together the party.
MATTHEWS: Your thoughts on that? Respond to that? come on.
TOOMEY: Mike Huckabee can‘t win the nomination.
MATTHEWS: Let‘s move off that. We are off Huckabee and Giuliani. We are having a brokered convention right now, here in this room. What about McCain and Romney? Could that be a ticket? Romney is ambitious beyond imagination. He‘ll take any place on the ticket to get there eventually.
TOOMEY: I don‘t think it‘s going to be a ticket.
MATTHEWS: Why not? Why not? One guy is 71. And the other guy is antsy pantsy to get the job some day. You‘re laughing because you know it‘s true. If this ticket is being formed, he‘ll want to be on it.
TOOMEY: It‘s not a good fit for McCain. If he‘s looking for somebody, he‘s going to be looking for somebody like Governor Mark Sanford or somebody like that, somebody who is—
MATTHEWS: Southern.
TOOMEY: Southern. a governor is good, but southerner. Someone who is
PERKINS: Someone with a good social conservative record.
MATTHEWS: I‘m trying to do it right here. McCain/Thompson, that‘s the ticket. You‘re just defining it, guys, you do it.
PERKINS: I think he picks a chief executive from someplace.
MATTHEWS: Haley Barber?
PERKINS: Possible. Mark Sanford is a good choice.
TOOMEY: Mark Sanford would be a great choice. It‘s way too soon to make McCain the nominee here. Romney can still win in Michigan.
MATTHEWS: If you guys have to put somebody from South Carolina to win South Carolina, you‘ve already lost this election. You start with South Carolina. That‘s the easiest state for you guys.
PERKINS: Romney is still very much in the hunt.
MATTHEWS: I think he is. I think he is. If he keeps getting second place in this jamboree, second, second, second will eventually add up to winning the thing. Thank you. I love this fight. I love the fact that you have X‘d out Rudy and X‘d out Huckabee, leaving us with McCain and Romney.
TOOMEY: I don‘t X out Giuliani.
PERKINS: Then I take back Huckabee.
MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Tony Perkins and Pat Toomey.